Choosing a class

[Loren Tyr]

Yes, but at level 16! I am of line of thought that they should've thought Chanter through. Balance the invocations with the length of an average fight. Because there isn't a single other class that doesn't get to really show its worth in an average fight. Maybe if it took 2...5 phrases to build an invo instead of 3...6? Maybe if BR gave its full effect immediately? There are ways to solve this.

 

Solve what? I still don't see the problem. In my experience Chanters work fine (and no, not just on PotD and/or on level 16). Sure, in short fights they're not going to be doing much Invoking. But then again, if they're over that quickly then apparently there was no need for it. It's not as if a Wizard is going to waste any of his spells on a fight like that either. And conversely, Monks and Ciphers also need some time to build up the resources for their more powerful abilities, they can't use those at the beginning of combat either. Besides, you're acting like Chanters are just about the Invocations, where they're just as much about the chanting. 

 

It also doesn't make sense to have BR have its full effect immediately. That's just lowering the overal recitation duration, there'd be no reason to give a separate talent for that. 

[Raven Darkholme]

Yes, but at level 16! I am of line of thought that they should've thought Chanter through. Balance the invocations with the length of an average fight. Because there isn't a single other class that doesn't get to really show its worth in an average fight. Maybe if it took 2...5 phrases to build an invo instead of 3...6? Maybe if BR gave its full effect immediately? There are ways to solve this.

You get BR earlier than 16 it just increases in usefulness with levels.

[hrwd]

 

Yes, but at level 16! I am of line of thought that they should've thought Chanter through. Balance the invocations with the length of an average fight. Because there isn't a single other class that doesn't get to really show its worth in an average fight. Maybe if it took 2...5 phrases to build an invo instead of 3...6? Maybe if BR gave its full effect immediately? There are ways to solve this.

 

Solve what? I still don't see the problem. In my experience Chanters work fine (and no, not just on PotD and/or on level 16). Sure, in short fights they're not going to be doing much Invoking. But then again, if they're over that quickly then apparently there was no need for it. It's not as if a Wizard is going to waste any of his spells on a fight like that either. And conversely, Monks and Ciphers also need some time to build up the resources for their more powerful abilities, they can't use those at the beginning of combat either. Besides, you're acting like Chanters are just about the Invocations, where they're just as much about the chanting. 

 

It also doesn't make sense to have BR have its full effect immediately. That's just lowering the overal recitation duration, there'd be no reason to give a separate talent for that. 

 

 

It seems you still haven't answered why one would summon a creature or buff / debuff halfway through the combat. It doesn't make sense. Damage invocations? Ok, they can be used for finishers. And perhaps even summons, but I just can't understand why one'd use buff / debuff Invos halfway through. That and CC ones. The ones that interest me the most tbh.

[Climhazzard]

Chanters start battles by being a tank that burns everything around them, that alone is as strong as anything other classes can bring to the beginning of a battle, invocations are merely the turning point. 

 

I tend to use "At the Sight of their Comrades their hearts grew bold" followed by Dragon thrashed.  So that my frontline starts every battle with a fortitude and will buff to prevent stuns and knockdowns at the beginning of the fight before engagement, then once the frontline has engaged the enemy Dragon Thrashed starts melting everything.

 

You don't need to start the battle with an invocation, they are merely the turning point.  If you don't understand how powerful chanter really is I'm going to have to assume like Boeroer that you are merely judging it based on your theorycrafting and not experience.

Edited September 1, 2016 by Climhazzard

[Dr <3]

Chanter is fine as it is. the game doesn't need a wizard-like clone ( like you MAY consider the druid), it is PRECISELY designed to be (and to be played) as a different class. The wiz ( and the druid) are designed to turbo cast their spells at the start of the fight for Cc and dmg, while Chanter simply is designed to be some kind of "long term supporter".

On top of the he can be build in a lot of different ways tailoring him on your party. He can buff other ranged char, do massive dmg, heal, stun, tank, everything you want. And differently from wiz/druid/Priest he will NEVER run out of spells.

Incidentally i think he is also the best class for solo, if you will ever try it.

 

Btw, potd is thought as a difficulty to give something more to the players that mastered this game good enough to find it easy.

[Raven Darkholme]

Chanters start battles by being a tank that burns everything around them, that alone is as strong as anything other classes can bring to the beginning of a battle, invocations are merely the turning point. 

This, is what I'm trying to get across, too.

I play chanters totally without invocations once I get to level 9 so I wouldn't stick to them being his only strength it's just not true.

[hrwd]

Ok, has IE mod changed classes in any way? If yes, maybe it'll interest me more.

[Jojobobo]

It seems you still haven't answered why one would summon a creature or buff / debuff halfway through the combat. It doesn't make sense. Damage invocations? Ok, they can be used for finishers. And perhaps even summons, but I just can't understand why one'd use buff / debuff Invos halfway through. That and CC ones. The ones that interest me the most tbh.

I think you need to actually play the class rather than theory craft about it, you won't get a good sense of what's going on until you try it.

 

Would it be nice to have a summon straight away? Sure, but it's hardly much of a hindrance as it doesn't take hardly any time at all to get 3 phrases out when you get to Act II or so (who cares about the gameplay in Act I? Every class is underdeveloped then) and the phantom summon is extremely powerful - how else can possibly stun with regularity, e.g. per encounter, that early game? Best of all, when the phantom runs out, you're already almost there to summon another one if you're chaining a level one phrase like Winds of Death (which is a great idea, because it does reasonable damage). If a fight is a little tougher (trolls, etc.) then you're adding an extra guy to your 6 party team seeing as you can continually bust them out - if you can't see the value in that I don't know how best to explain it to you.

 

For invocation debuffs like Killers Froze Stiff, they also don't take long to accumulate the phrases for and they make the damage of the rest of your team sky rocket because the deflection and reflex buffs are huge - as Boeroer mentioned you can even paralysis lock mobs allowing your party to go absolutely crazy on their asses. Again, this is all stemming from an unlimited resource - no need to rest or faff about.

 

You really just need to play the class, or pick a different class that you like the look of more. People have now described every angle of why Chanters are good (huge defensive buffs to the whole party in the tougher fights, crazy CC, adding an extra member to your party pretty much, huge damage AoE spells, etc. etc.) so if you're still unconvinced there really isn't much more that anyone else can say. As experienced players we're not all in collusion to lie to you about the awesomeness of Chanters just to make you play one when they actually suck and so make you sad - honest

Edited September 1, 2016 by Jojobobo

[Loren Tyr]

It seems you still haven't answered why one would summon a creature or buff / debuff halfway through the combat. It doesn't make sense. Damage invocations? Ok, they can be used for finishers. And perhaps even summons, but I just can't understand why one'd use buff / debuff Invos halfway through. That and CC ones. The ones that interest me the most tbh.

 

I don't know, 'cause I still have half a battle to go and I like winning them? Not sure what game you are playing, but in mine Paralyzing enemies is very useful all the way through the fight. Also, stop exaggerating; in the bigger fights, you can start casting invocations far before you hit the halfway point. 

 

Anyway, I would suggest (along with everyone else) that you actually play the class before complaining about bad design. Grab Kana if you don't want a main character Chanter. 

Edited September 1, 2016 by Loren Tyr

[Climhazzard]

I think a lot of people just don't like how passive they are, definitely not a MC class if you want to control your MC quite a bit during battles, but a powerful class nonetheless.

[rheingold]

Chanters are more than fine as is. On any difficulty. If you don't like dragon thrashed then try using shorter chants and more lower level invocations. Or you could use the cold damage spell which could possibly out damage a dragon chanter. Certainly it does more burst damage which can be very useful. Don't like that, use a gun chanter! Or maybe one as an off tank. So many options.

 

Sure if you want a more direct type caster who can nuke at the beginning of the battle there are better options. But chanters are excellent support characters and can be built in a number of ways. Obviously the mechanics were designed to differentiate between vancian casters and the others, and to a large extent they have succeeded. If chanters could cast straight off you would have to seriously nerf their invocations or they would be completely overpowered. Obs actually have a pretty good track record with bards - and I include chanters in that. While bards in most games or pnp were pretty sad, the NWN2 bard was awesome. It's great to have a worthy successor...

[hrwd]

Chanters are more than fine as is. On any difficulty. If you don't like dragon thrashed then try using shorter chants and more lower level invocations. Or you could use the cold damage spell which could possibly out damage a dragon chanter. Certainly it does more burst damage which can be very useful. Don't like that, use a gun chanter! Or maybe one as an off tank. So many options.

 

Sure if you want a more direct type caster who can nuke at the beginning of the battle there are better options. But chanters are excellent support characters and can be built in a number of ways. Obviously the mechanics were designed to differentiate between vancian casters and the others, and to a large extent they have succeeded. If chanters could cast straight off you would have to seriously nerf their invocations or they would be completely overpowered. Obs actually have a pretty good track record with bards - and I include chanters in that. While bards in most games or pnp were pretty sad, the NWN2 bard was awesome. It's great to have a worthy successor...

 

I liked NWN 1 Bards too. Epic buffs + Slow / Haste...really helpful.

 

Now let's get technical:

 

Winds of Death are 1 dps. Ok.

How much dps is the best Pistol(say Forgiveness upgraded to Legendary)?

Are there any dps charts anyhow?

[Jojobobo]

But you can use Winds of Death and a pistol? In fact, you can spec any a Chanter anyway you damn well please (ranged DPS, etc.) and still have them do supplementary damage with their chants.

 

How is doing more damage on a group, and still getting attacks, and having access to damaging spells from time to time, a bad thing - particularly when the phrases overlap and do much more damage than you're claiming (if you stack up 3 levels of Winds of Death with the overlap, then that's Deep Wounds level endurance drain on a whole group - yes?)? If you're not happy with the DPS they do, then spec them towards weapon DPS early game and enjoy it when they get the stronger DPS phrases later (not that the early game ones aren't good, regardless of whether you choose to see that or not).

 

I played a Rogue tank solo PotD with Retaliation and Deep Wounds, and they killed whole groups with ease because of a similar health draining effect (enough for me to complete most of Act III, probably the whole game, but my laptop had a meltdown so I lost my saves). A Chanter does the same thing, but also paralyses the entire group for quite some time while it's happening - so you and none of your team mates are taking damage. For some reason you have a fixation on damage and DPS, but isn't it good occasionally to have a tank that can be gradually whittling people down when all your glass cannons fail?

 

Maybe hard difficulty is too easy, and the only way you find a game satisfying is to be a DPS monster so you like difficulties where you don't need to tank. There's plenty of ways to play any rpg, a slow burning tank is equally as viable as a burst attacker or a DPS attacker. If you don't like the play style - don't play it. You also might want to stop asking people to try and convince you to play a style you frankly don't seem to like, as no one is getting anywhere. Why make a thread asking a question just to not listen to any of the rational answers to that question?

Edited September 1, 2016 by Jojobobo

[Climhazzard]

 

Chanters are more than fine as is. On any difficulty. If you don't like dragon thrashed then try using shorter chants and more lower level invocations. Or you could use the cold damage spell which could possibly out damage a dragon chanter. Certainly it does more burst damage which can be very useful. Don't like that, use a gun chanter! Or maybe one as an off tank. So many options.

 

Sure if you want a more direct type caster who can nuke at the beginning of the battle there are better options. But chanters are excellent support characters and can be built in a number of ways. Obviously the mechanics were designed to differentiate between vancian casters and the others, and to a large extent they have succeeded. If chanters could cast straight off you would have to seriously nerf their invocations or they would be completely overpowered. Obs actually have a pretty good track record with bards - and I include chanters in that. While bards in most games or pnp were pretty sad, the NWN2 bard was awesome. It's great to have a worthy successor...

 

I liked NWN 1 Bards too. Epic buffs + Slow / Haste...really helpful.

 

Now let's get technical:

 

Winds of Death are 1 dps. Ok.

How much dps is the best Pistol(say Forgiveness upgraded to Legendary)?

Are there any dps charts anyhow?

 

 

 

Winds of Death dps is by no means impressive.  Personally I don't recommend using it, but in early levels it's fine.  Something like the will and fortitude buff scales a lot better into later levels though than winds of death, imo.

 

I've seen a few charts, there are a lot of variables concerned but I don't think guns are near the top for any chart, they're best for burst.

 

If I had to guess, there aren't to many builds going over 100 dps against single targets.  Rogues and monks can get fairly high, and shapeshifter druids.  A firing line supported by "Sure handed Ila knocked her arrows with speed" is an interesting thought, but my parties are always melee heavy so I have no idea if it works.

Edited September 1, 2016 by Climhazzard

[Boeroer]

Guns are at the bottom of the list when it comes to damage per second. They are top at damage per hit, but not per second.

 

Obviously you didn't take into account that Sweet Winds only takes 2 seconds at lvl 16 to complete. So after 2 sec you stack another Sweet Wind on top, after 4 secs it's three of them. It depends in your INT how many you can stack, but it adds up to a great endurance drain per second in a very big AoE. And the second thing is: it's raw damage!

After 10 seconds (at lvl 16) you can use Seven Nights to substitute the damage of Sweet Winds. Or after 8 you can use Killers Froze stiff for perma-paralyze. Every 6 seconds you could use White Worms. It's absolutely devastating if you already have bodies piled up where you are defending a chokepoint.

 

Can't see how this is worse than a pistol - even if we speak about dps only (which is not very meaningful as Jojobobo said).

 

I have a chanter build who uses Sweet Winds as his main chant. He soloed every PotD bounty with rel. ease but is also superb with a party. Look for "Chillfog" in the build index.

 

You can't judge a class just by looking at the wiki. I mean you can, but then your judgement will be awfully wrong.

[hrwd]

Does Eldritch Aim influence the Accuracy of a Wizard's spell?

[Raven Darkholme]

Yes.

[hrwd]

What about Chanter Invocation accuracy? Based on Accuracy with a weapon or more general Accuracy like a Wizard, Druid etc(I'm asking because Chanters don't get +10 so it is kinda suspicious to me).

 

Damn, they really need to up their game in UI and mech.explanation aspects in their further games.

Edited September 5, 2016 by hrwd

[Raven Darkholme]

It is also affected by potions, spells, PE, resting bonus, you name it.

Wizards spells are also affected by ranged accuracy buffs.

[hrwd]

It is also affected by potions, spells, PE, resting bonus, you name it.

Wizards spells are also affected by ranged accuracy buffs.

 

So, Chanter's accuracy is the same as Wizard's accuracy? I mean, weapons don't influence it.

[Raven Darkholme]

Well apart freom specific ranged accuracy, yes. (Like in the talent or the wood elf racial, those only affect spells and mind abilities)