Choosing a class

[hrwd]

I've a hell of time trying to choose my class for the 2nd playthrough. It's because of Tyranny. While I'd normally most likely choose Wizard, that system with cooldowns just...just seems better to me than this per rest system. You know? Even though using 2x Wizard is super fun and effective...I feel spoiled by just seeing a glimpse of that system.

 

Chanter is fubar'd and so far from a proper Bard...

 

Monk, Barb and Rogue all seem equally nice. Gun Rogue especially so.

 

Ranger...is somewhat meh. I don't necessarily dislike Rangers(in fact, they are often fun), but this pet thing...idk. Pets seem so weak apart from abusing DoT + Sneak Attack. But they still do require a lot of micro.

 

Also, both Glamfallen and Aumaua seem equally nice. Basically, Glam with traditional weaponry or Aumaua with Guns(Rauatai is the leading nation in guntech after all). Maybe even Pike Aumaua Barb(because...Maori :D ).

 

Choices, choices. fk you Tyranny for spoiling my magic systams lol

[Boeroer]

So... do you want to ask a question?

[hrwd]

So... do you want to ask a question?

 

I am stating that Tyranny ruined my concept of a Wizard and now I'm confused. My question...ok:

 

How to make Chanter NOT SUCK until t3 Phrases / Invos? Let's start there. I also have guns on my mind with a Chanter(Rauatai Aumaua, ofc).

 

Also, the direct question was supposed to be "play Wizard now or play something else and wait up to ~ 3 / 4 year(I doubt it'll take even that long, let alone longer) for Tyranny to play it there?"

Edited August 31, 2016 by hrwd

[Loren Tyr]

What makes you say they suck before then in the first place, though? 'Cause I don't see that. Then again, I think they're a vast improvement over the 'proper' bards from BG etc., so maybe you just have very different expectations from the class.

[Raven Darkholme]

Bards sucked quite a bit in BG even tho I loved my solo blade.

Chanters are the most powerful class in PoE and the Brisk Recitation was quite unnecessary.

Level 1 Phrases and Invocations are op.

[hrwd]

What makes you say they suck before then in the first place, though? 'Cause I don't see that. Then again, I think they're a vast improvement over the 'proper' bards from BG etc., so maybe you just have very different expectations from the class.

 

Well, I liked wild amounts of buffing and access to select few support Arcane spells. That is what a Bard needs to do imo. Buffing potential of Chanters is meh and I tend to think their Invo system is backwards. A LOT of Invos would be much, much more useful at the start of combat, not in the [ 33 , 66 ]% interval. Even summons are an example of this, let alone Hel Hyraf, Axe n Storm, Paralyze etc. Hell, I'll list which Invos are designed well according to when they are usually used:

 

Thrice Avenge

White Worms(this'd be...awkward to use at the start of combat)

Shatter the Shackles

Two fingers of daylight

Sons of Adun(er...Scions of Adon yes!)

White Winds

Biting Winds

 

That's it. Every other Invo would be MUCH better if you casted it AT THE BEGGINING. What's the use of Paralyze at the very least 16s in? Their Wizard(s) already nuked the everliving daylights out of your party. What's the use of Hel Hyraf 12s in?

 

Maybe I'm stupid or maybe I'm overthinking it...but I doubt it. So, maybe help me understand. Because I can't understand why I'd take Chanter over...well...anyone.

 

edit: What's so powerful on T1? I mean, Wizard and Druid blow it out of water and Priest is not far behind. Even simple classes like Monk or Barb or Fighter are more useful imo.

Edited August 31, 2016 by hrwd

[Boeroer]

Brisk Recitation is great. Don't want to miss it. And it's also the name of a famous german pomade: "Brisk - Halt ohne Fettglanz!"* - the biggest lie in the history of advertisement.

 

)* good hold without looking greasy

[Jojobobo]

Chanters don't remotely suck early game, I'm playing one solo PotD currently and just got to level 7 (soon level eight, stupid no disable smilies option stoping me using the actual number with a bracket after it) in Defiance Bay.

 

Act I tactics:

 

1) Winds of Death is a constant drain on health, have a chant of just that and the endurance drain is quite good.

2) Reny Daret's Ghost is OP, stun plus his damage is an insane effect and the fact you can easily spam this guy several times a battle (also great for split-pulling in Act I if you're going the solo route) is beyond powerful - especially as you can use the Bronze Horn Figurine while you wait the first time in tricky battles.

3) White Worms can be used situationally to reasonable effect as clean up at the end of a fight.

 

Act II tactics:

 

1) Use the Act I tactics as well as...

2) Killers Froze Stiff and the new figurines are a powerful combo, allowing your figurine summons (particularly the Shades) to hit paralysed enemies extremely hard on their dramatically debuffed deflection score - and all the while they are taking damage from Winds of Death. When you run out of figurine summons, switch back to the Phantom summon/White Worms for a finisher.

3) Whispers of Treason from Munacra Arret exacerbates the Killers Froze Stiff effect, giving you extra guys to hit the enemies' debuffed deflection from paralysis. For this reason, I wouldn't ever recommend taking The Lover Cried - Munacra Arret does the same job at +10 accuracy.

 

This as I said is all on solo PotD, most fights I'm taking very few hits because of these combos. How you chose to dish out your weapon damage when playing like this is kind of negligible to be honest, so think about how you want to play mid game and build towards that. You really only need to stress Intellect on a Chanter, with Might being useful to a lesser extent. Anything else you can build pretty much how you want so long as you're not minimising a load of attributes, so don't stress about it too much.

 

Also, going solo and completing all Act II content apart from the Endless Paths (getting down to level 14 with Od Nua) on a Paladin I reached level 13 before trying White March part I. Even with a party, hitting level 9 and The Dragon Thrashed shouldn't be too far off if you have a bit of patience.

 

On an unrelated point, where are all the Tyranny development details? I had a lazy look at their website the other day and didn't see the kind of mechanistic detail people keep drumming on about.

Edited August 31, 2016 by Jojobobo

[hrwd]

Brisk Recitation is great. Don't want to miss it. And it's also the name of a famous german pomade: "Brisk - Halt ohne Fettglanz!"* - the biggest lie in the history of advertisement.

 

)* good hold without looking greasy

 

What the hell is BR?

 

Here:

 

​https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_hrzHX1O7MA

​https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k5s4Usksb9o

 

Pay attention to small details and to what they are saying.

Edited August 31, 2016 by hrwd

[Loren Tyr]

That's it. Every other Invo would be MUCH better if you casted it AT THE BEGGINING. What's the use of Paralyze at the very least 16s in? Their Wizard(s) already nuked the everliving daylights out of your party. What's the use of Hel Hyraf 12s in?

 

Maybe I'm stupid or maybe I'm overthinking it...but I doubt it. So, maybe help me understand. Because I can't understand why I'd take Chanter over...well...anyone.

 

edit: What's so powerful on T1? I mean, Wizard and Druid blow it out of water and Priest is not far behind. Even simple classes like Monk or Barb or Fighter are more useful imo.

 

Well, sure. But if you could cast them at the beginning they wouldn't be as powerful, they're obviously balanced against the fact that it takes a while for you to be able to cast them. From level 1 the Phantom invocation is very good, though I like Thunder Rolled and White Worms as well. And I'm not sure how long your battles usually last, but I've certainly found being able to Paralyze enemies in a large cone area to be very useful. And you can generally get there faster than 16s, with Brisk Recitation.

 

Again though, I get the impression you may simply have the wrong expectations of Chanters. They're not the same kind of heavy hitter as a Wizard, that's not what they're designed for. In some respects they serve a similar role as the old-school bard, in that their chanting provides a continuous buffing/debuffing effect. Though unlike the bard songs their chants are much more varied and adaptable, and they can do other stuff as they chant. They have good base deflection so you can (off-)tank with them quite well, or you can go a bit more DPS-ish with a more offensive and/or scroll-casting build. In terms of their core abilities you can range from going with powerful Chants with an occasional Invocation to more fast chanting with short phrases to get a lot more Invocation done; with Brisk Recitation the level 1 Phrases scale down to 2 seconds at level 16, so you can build up powerful invocations quite quickly. You can basically chain-Paralyze a cone of enemies in the later stages (assuming you hit obviously), for example. 

[hrwd]

What is Brisk Recitation? I can't find it anywhere.

[DreamWayfarer]

What is Brisk Recitation? I can't find it anywhere.

A Talent that came with update 3.0. Now the non-linger duration of Chanters phrases gets shorter every 4 levels, being twice as fast at level 16.

 

That means that Invocation-focused Chanters who chain lots of small phrases with a few big ones are a viable alternative to Dragon Thrashed face-melters, and they can actually keep up multiple buffing invocations up with high INT and non-dumped DEX (as you only resume chanting after an invocation after the relatively long recovery).

Edited September 1, 2016 by DreamWayfarer

[Abbzug]

Bards sucked quite a bit in BG even tho I loved my solo blade.

Chanters are the most powerful class in PoE and the Brisk Recitation was quite unnecessary.

Level 1 Phrases and Invocations are op.

 

 

Yep. In D&D step 1 to succeeding with a bard was to pick a kit that removed as many bard-like qualities as possible.

[Climhazzard]

Chanters are a great class, like others have said.  They might come off a little underwhelming on easier difficulties because fights finish before you can use invocations.  But their chants alone are quite strong, such as Dragon Thrashed, it'll melt everything on easier difficulties by itself.  Once you get to PotD they start to shine since you'll be able to make frequent use of their invocations as well. 

 

They are a class I never leave home without when I'm playing on PotD.  Their beast killing chant combined with their anti fear chant will turn any battle against dragons in your favor.  Their Mercy chant combined with the right healing effects will keep you on your feet through anything.  Dragon thrashed melts everything in site.  Invocations are merely a bonus if you aren't playing on PotD, and if you are they can be quite strong as well.

[hrwd]

Beast killing chant? There is no beast killing chant. Afaik.

 

Also, I forgot to note that I don't plan to play anything above Hard. I just don't see the point. Some may find Adra Dragon on PoTD fun...to me it's anti fun. But then again, challenge is ok(but then I'd play truly challenging game, not Obsidian game - a game company that is typically known for literature and philosophy, not mechanics), but I don't care about recognition or achievments(at least in games I don't), so it's only natural that I don't "get" the PoTD.

[DreamWayfarer]

Beast killing chant? There is no beast killing chant. Afaik.

 

 

White March 2 added some new spells and abilities to mid to late levels of all classes.

[hrwd]

...someone should REALLY update the wiki...

[Climhazzard]

There are two Tier 5 chants, one is a large +accuracy and damage bonus to beasts, the other is +100% to healing received.

[Elric Galad]

Chanters are definitely the most powerful damage dealers if specced for Dragon Trashed. They are also good tanks and have a lot of other cards in their games.

 

They are a bit passive for main characters. So if you hesitate, you might pick a chanter henchman or Kana on your party rather than play one.

 

 

Ranger's pet are very far from being weak. They do bring very relevent additional damages and tank quite well during late game. Ranger with a wolf is a great choice.

 

Barbarian are good in 3.03. Monks have always been and should be very fun to play if you don't mind being hurt.

Ranged Rogue are meh IMHO. But viable for sure.

[Raven Darkholme]

 

Bards sucked quite a bit in BG even tho I loved my solo blade.

Chanters are the most powerful class in PoE and the Brisk Recitation was quite unnecessary.

Level 1 Phrases and Invocations are op.

 

 

Yep. In D&D step 1 to succeeding with a bard was to pick a kit that removed as many bard-like qualities as possible.

 

Ikr.

In solo you don't even use the song.

That's why chanters are so awesome in PoE you can almost do anything while chanting.

[Boeroer]

Brisk Recitation is not only great for invocation users - it also increases the damage of Come, Sweet Winds of Death and The Dragon Thrashed because you can stack more of them. It's also very good for the 30pt damage shield because it stacks indirectly: one shield surpresses the other, so you will never have more than 30pts as a shield, but once the first shield wears of because of hits the suppressed one takes it's place with fresh 30 pts. It can be very powerful if you stack enough of those. It gets totally ridiculous if you have more than one tanky chanter and stack several 30pts shields plus Come Sweet Winds and use Seven Nights every now and then. You will vaporize everything, including Crägholt Bluffs, without loosing a lot of health. Did it with three chanters and no rests until I reached Concelhaut.

With high DEX and Brisk Recitation you can also perma-paralyze mobs while hurting them with Come SweetvWinds a Jojobobo said. Your phrase counter will be full again before the paralyze effect wears off (if it didn't graze).

 

@hwrd: how comes that you don't know about all the new talents and abilities? They get displayed on the char sheet. Does that mean you judged the chanter class by looking at the wiki and not by playing it? No wonder you think they are not good.

 

Actually it's one of the most powerful classes in my opinion (if you put spell spamming if wiz/druid/priest aside). Their mechanics are just too slow for anything below PotD. They really shine on PoTD and esp. solo PotD - just my opinion. Few rests and easy to play while micro is also quite low for such power levels.

[hrwd]

Brisk Recitation is not only great for invocation users - it also increases the damage of Come, Sweet Winds of Death and The Dragon Thrashed because you can stack more of them. It's also very good for the 30pt damage shield because it stacks indirectly: one shield surpresses the other, so you will never have more than 30pts as a shield, but once the first shield wears of because of hits the suppressed one takes it's place with fresh 30 pts. It can be very powerful if you stack enough of those. It gets totally ridiculous if you have more than one tanky chanter and stack several 30pts shields plus Come Sweet Winds and use Seven Nights every now and then. You will vaporize everything, including Crägholt Bluffs, without loosing a lot of health. Did it with three chanters and no rests until I reached Concelhaut.

With high DEX and Brisk Recitation you can also perma-paralyze mobs while hurting them with Come SweetvWinds a Jojobobo said. Your phrase counter will be full again before the paralyze effect wears off (if it didn't graze).

 

@hwrd: how comes that you don't know about all the new talents and abilities? They get displayed on the char sheet. Does that mean you judged the chanter class by looking at the wiki and not by playing it? No wonder you think they are not good.

 

Actually it's one of the most powerful classes in my opinion (if you put spell spamming if wiz/druid/priest aside). Their mechanics are just too slow for anything below PotD. They really shine on PoTD and esp. solo PotD - just my opinion. Few rests and easy to play while micro is also quite low for such power levels.

 

And hence you yourself concluded I'm right. That it's not really an example of a good design. More of an example of bad design. Who designs a class for one difficulty only? I have a hunch that in PoE 2, we'll be seeing a different Chanter(if we'll see it at all).

 

It needs a redesign. Or at least the ability to use 1 invo at the start of combat. Invo + Mark of the Wild at the start could be plenty of support. And they could keep the damage abilities. Really, it wouldn't be that powerful if you could use an invo at the start of the combat. When you notice all the other things that is.

[Raven Darkholme]

I don't think you quite got Boroers point, stacking chants has nothing to do with invocations and you only need a few seconds for it with BR.

Also if you don't use a party a chanter would also be useful on lower difficulties, it's just hard to notice the awesome effects of the chanter if you instakill every encounter anyway.

[Loren Tyr]

I disagree with it only being useful on PotD. I only ever play on Hard and get plenty of use out Kana, both in terms of Chants as well as Invocations (emphasis on the latter, as I tend to go for the fast-chant type of build). It certainly needs no redesign. Given that along with the Cipher it is one of the most distinctively PoE-specific classes, I would be deeply surprised if they significantly changed the core mechanics of the class, let alone dropped the class altogether (here's hoping for a big Wizard/Druid/Priest overhaul, though...).

[hrwd]

Yes, but at level 16! I am of line of thought that they should've thought Chanter through. Balance the invocations with the length of an average fight. Because there isn't a single other class that doesn't get to really show its worth in an average fight. Maybe if it took 2...5 phrases to build an invo instead of 3...6? Maybe if BR gave its full effect immediately? There are ways to solve this.