The New Rogue

[nem0]

The beta came out today and rogue got some pretty nice buffs.  I was curious what everyone thought of this and possible build ideas now that rogue may be stronger.

 

Below are the rogue patch notes:

 

Rogue

• Riposte: In addition to triggering on 20% of Misses, it should also trigger on 30% of Grazes.
• Escape: Using Escape should give the rogue a temporary (base 10s) boost to Deflection and Reflexes (+25).
• Adept Evasion: It should be changed to convert 75% of Reflex Grazes to Misses and 50% of Reflex Hits to Grazes.
• Fearsome Strike: Affliction durations increased to base 15s.
• Smoke Cloud: Increase the AoE radius by 33% and the Distracted duration by 50%.
• Withering Strike damage increased to +50%.
• Shadow Step can now be canceled early, and grants a 20% damage boost.

 

I have checked and the new escape bonuses do not stack with llengrath's displaced images potions or reinforcing exhortation but stack with scrolls of defense like other spell buffs.  I suppose it would be possible to build around spelltongue for prolonged bonuses and riposte strikes.

 

Also of note is that the one handed weapon talent is now 15% hit to crit but does not work with shields.  It is theoretically(as long as it stacks) possible to achieve 100% hit to crit conversion now with:

 

20%- Durgan upgraded weapons

20%- Dire Blessing

20%- Dirty Fighting/Vicious Fighing

15%- One handed talent

10%- Orlan passive

10%- Predatory weapon modifier(Tall Grass and Traitor's Merit are two handers/ Aattuuk and Rêghar Konnek are single handed)

 5%-  Zealous/ critical focus

 

You would have to use the Aattuuk or Rêghar Konnek for 100% so you probably won't go for that but you can still easily get 85%-90% with any other one handed weapon. 

 

Any Thoughts?

 

Edit: Fixed mistakes pointed out by Elric Galad and Boeroer

Edited June 2, 2016 by nem0

[Elric Galad]

20% does not come from reckless assault but from Dirty Fighting and related talent.

 

100% might not ne necessary, especially because it requires some suboptimal weapon with on crit effects, instead of stuff like We Toki that prone on crit.

 

All the previous stack by the way.

Edited June 2, 2016 by Elric Galad

[Boeroer]

Rêghar Konnek is also predatory (+10% hit-to-crit) and has speed, which migt alo be important for somebody who only wields a single weapon.

 

Cladhaliath with stunning + vicious might be nice. First stun it with awesome ACC (spears have +5 ACC) and this insane hit-to-crit conversion, then do +20% damage against stunned targets. However - if you plan to flank anyway (+10% hit-to-crit from Hearth Orlan's Minor Threat) then Coordinating will always be the superior choice: +4 ACC and +25% damage instead of only +20% damage from vicious. This would give a flanking rogue Deathblows (Persistent Distraction), +19 ACC (Coordinating, Spear, defelction decreased by flanked), +10% hit-to-crit (Minor Threat) and +25% damage (Coordinating) for tons of crits, fewer grazes and misses and good damage while stunning (which will lower deflection further).

[Stasis_Sword]

Riposte and Adept Evasion look like they could be fun on a tanky rogue.

 

It will be interesting to try the new shadow step.

 

Since it's still in beta if anyone from Obsidian is reading please consider making the distraction affliction trigger sneak attacks/death blows. It would make persistent distraction and smoke cloud much more useful.

[nem0]

20% does not come from reckless assault but from Dirty Fighting and related talent.

 

100% might not ne necessary, especially because it requires some suboptimal weapon with on crit effects, instead of stuff like We Toki that prone on crit.

 

All the previous stack by the way.

I fixed the post thanks. Yeah I don't think that extra 10% is worth giving up certain weapons. The only one I don't know how it stacks is the one handed talent but I assume it should since it is a talent.

 

Rêghar Konnek is also predatory (+10% hit-to-crit) and has speed, which migt alo be important for somebody who only wields a single weapon.

 

Cladhaliath with stunning + vicious might be nice. First stun it with awesome ACC (spears have +5 ACC) and this insane hit-to-crit conversion, then do +20% damage against stunned targets. However - if you plan to flank anyway (+10% hit-to-crit from Hearth Orlan's Minor Threat) then Coordinating will always be the superior choice: +4 ACC and +25% damage instead of only +20% damage from vicious. This would give a flanking rogue Deathblows (Persistent Distraction), +19 ACC (Coordinating, Spear, defelction decreased by flanked), +10% hit-to-crit (Minor Threat) and +25% damage (Coordinating) for tons of crits, fewer grazes and misses and good damage while stunning (which will lower deflection further).

Added it to post. Do you think that one handed will be worth not dual wielding or having a shield? The new one hand should offer up to a +19.5% chance of critical hit but you are sacrificing low/zero recovery or around 30 deflect/ reflex to get it still.

 

Riposte and Adept Evasion look like they could be fun on a tanky rogue.

 

It will be interesting to try the new shadow step.

 

Since it's still in beta if anyone from Obsidian is reading please consider making the distraction affliction trigger sneak attacks/death blows. It would make persistent distraction and smoke cloud much more useful.

I don't believe the old shadow step tool tip gave you a timer, this one does which is nice(increased by intel, 6 sec base I believe).  The new riposte adds an additional 10.5%(.3*.35) to riposte, if you consider being attacked by someone of equal acc/def then that number went from 3%(.15*.2) to 13.5% which is pretty significant and only gets better as does our deflection.  I remember someone saying that distraction actually does trigger sneak attack on another post, I have not tested but it would make sense that it would given that rogue is the only one who causes it I think.

Edited June 2, 2016 by nem0

[MasterCipher]

Can rogue feign death be cancelled early ? This one really needs it.

[Boeroer]

Distracted did (and most hopefully still does) indeed trigger Sneak Attack and therefore Deathblows: you need to flank in order to trigger it. Flanking + Distracted are two afflictions and therefore flanking instantly triggers Deathblows. BUT it has to be you who causes the flanking. That means you have to be the first or second character who engages. If you help two guys who already flank a target then nothing happens. This also makes Phantom foes really bad if you have a rogue with this skill in the party.

Edit: Tested again and it doesn't trigger Sneak Attack/Deathblows (anymore - or it never did. Whatever: forget my weisenheimering above).

No, old Shadowstep had no visible counter. Now it's way better - but still quite useless in my opinion. But maybe it's good for Backstabbing? Step in, doing a Blinding Strike as Backstab and step out?

Didn't I read in the patch notes that you can cancel Feign Death now? Or was that just a wishful delusion?

Edit: No, you can only cancel Shadow Step now. Nothing about Feign Death.

Edited June 2, 2016 by Boeroer

[Kaylon]

Distracted did (and most hopefully still does) indeed trigger Sneak Attack and therefore Deathblows: you need to flank in order to trigger it. Flanking + Distracted are two afflictions and therefore flanking instantly triggers Deathblows. BUT it has to be you who causes the flanking. That means you have to be the first or second character who engages. If you help two guys who already flank a target then nothing happens. This also makes Phantom foes really bad if you have a rogue with this skill in the party.

 

Distracted doesn't trigger sneak attack. 

[nem0]

 

Distracted did (and most hopefully still does) indeed trigger Sneak Attack and therefore Deathblows: you need to flank in order to trigger it. Flanking + Distracted are two afflictions and therefore flanking instantly triggers Deathblows. BUT it has to be you who causes the flanking. That means you have to be the first or second character who engages. If you help two guys who already flank a target then nothing happens. This also makes Phantom foes really bad if you have a rogue with this skill in the party.

 

Distracted doesn't trigger sneak attack. 

 

 

I don't know what to believe, has anyone tested it on the new beta? Distracted isn't listed as triggering sneak attack however it is not uncommon for the description to be wrong.

 

Shadow step wasn't a great move however, it did allow you draw enemies into bad positioning and get a sure fire escape per encounter like Escape I guess.

[Boeroer]

Whaa? You're right! I just tested it and it doesn't. But I was so sure it did when they introduced Persistent Distraction. I remember running the exact same test and it did trigger Sneak Attack/Deathblows - which made the ability very useful. Without triggering Deathblows it's kind of worthless - only good for running away without getting hit - but Escape is way better than that. But maybe my memory fails me completely. Wouldn't be the first time. Three kids taking their toll and so on...

[TWPE]

Heh, you've done so many tests to make your billions of builds that you're getting them crossed in your head.

 

They say each kid you have, makes you go senile 10-15 years sooner. 3 kids...

[Boeroer]

Ouch! And I'm already 40... that makes me... wait... what? Senile like a 85 year old? That explains everything!      

[nem0]

I checked and the feign death prone/damage immune time can not be cancelled. However, with stealth time you get afterwards I was able to kill someone and remain stealthed, it was a weak npc so 1 hit but I remained stealth afterwards for the duration. If you do indeed remain stealthed regardless of attack for the duration you might be able to significantly increase the duration with spelltongue.  

[Boeroer]

THen Backstab should be ok in combination with Feign Death now.

[Dr <3]

Between sap, withering strike, hobnle strike you can just pop out of invisibility, kill 1 or 2 mobs, shadow beyond and repeat. Backstab makes that even smoother. Finally i have the feel of fight like a "real" rogue that i missed since bg2 ( good old backstab, kill, run around the corner and repeat ). I killed the Orlan monk in craghold before First sap expires. Much wow.

 

And now i feel that doble wield drawn in spring in actually the best dps hands down

Edited June 2, 2016 by Dr <3

[Boeroer]

Hm, but when you stun your enemy (= many crits following) isn't Purgatory + Resolution still better? 

[Elric Galad]

THen Backstab should be ok in combination with Feign Death now.

It has always worked. I'm so sad that you didn't notice my posts. I even tried to extend the invisibility with salvation of time, but no one was interested.

 

Curiously, invisibility was extended but backstab didn't work after this extension...

 

I tested distracted too and it worked. I also stacked with other defense debuff(not only flanked). What happened ?

Edited June 2, 2016 by Elric Galad

[Boeroer]

 

THen Backstab should be ok in combination with Feign Death now.

It has always worked. I'm so sad that you didn't notice my posts. I even tried to extend the invisibility with salvation of time, but no one was interested.

 

Curiously, invisibility was extended but backstab didn't work after this extension...

 

I tested distracted too and it worked. I also stacked with other defense debuff(not only flanked). What happened ?

 

I did read it of course and I also found it interesting. I also tested a Backstab rogue build with all the invisibility uses I coud get after I read your posts. But I also noticed that Backstab didn't work well with it and in my case the invisibility also ended when I attacked somebody - not the visuals though - only that the enemy turned and attacked me. I did not develop this further because it was a real pain in the youknowwhat because of the horribly high amount of micromanagement. So my powergamery swiss cheese brain made me forget to post about that...

 

Now I thought that maybe because they overhauled Backstab and Feign Death that it might actually work properly - nom0's post suggested that. 

 

Distracted triggering Sneak/Deathblows: Thank you. That restores a bit of my senile self confidence.

Edited June 2, 2016 by Boeroer

[Elric Galad]

I'm totally convinced by the new barbarian, but I still have slight doubts about the rogue.

 

Still quite limited in he does. Still wondering if he is superior by far to the ranger (and his pet).

 

Given that pet hits like a slow truck, given you can't durganize a pet or its fur, given that it can't have lash, recovery reduction, or upgrade its dex, and attack as fast as an average weapon, I'd say pet (wolf) does approximatively 1/3 of a rogue with deathblow by itself.

 

Ranger itself does about the same, due to ranged weapon doing less damages than melee and twin arrows getting more dr reduction than sneak, deathblow and other damage modifiers.

 

So in best case, rogue seems better, but is it by far ? Not sure...

Edited June 2, 2016 by Elric Galad

[Elric Galad]

 

 

 

THen Backstab should be ok in combination with Feign Death now.

It has always worked. I'm so sad that you didn't notice my posts. I even tried to extend the invisibility with salvation of time, but no one was interested.

 

Curiously, invisibility was extended but backstab didn't work after this extension...

 

I tested distracted too and it worked. I also stacked with other defense debuff(not only flanked). What happened ?

I did read it of course and I also found it interesting. I also tested a Backstab rogue build with all the invisibility uses I coud get after I read your posts. But I also noticed that Backstab didn't work well with it and in my case the invisibility also ended when I attacked somebody - not the visuals though - only that the enemy turned and attacked me. I did not develop this further because it was a real pain in the youknowwhat because of the horribly high amount of micromanagement. So my powergamery swiss cheese brain made me forget to post about that...

 

Now I thought that maybe because they overhauled Backstab and Feign Death that it might actually work properly - nom0's post suggested that.

 

Distracted triggering Sneak/Deathblows: Thank you. That restores a bit of my senile self confidence.

I would have been happy to test this but I promised my fiancee I won't play till the first part of our marriage which is on Saturday ^^

 

Ah

Ah

Aj

*Demonic laugh with a typo*

Edited June 2, 2016 by Elric Galad

[Boeroer]

ROFL!

 

And congratulations! 

[Dr <3]

Apparently posting in this forum is unproperly unaffected by your impending marriage debuff. I will write a bug report :D

[TWPE]

Ahh, yes. I'm pretty sure there is an audio swap bug as well. I believe the demonic laugh should be coming from your fiance.

 

 

... Ahh! Maybe that's the cause of the typo.

Edited June 2, 2016 by TWPE

[Elric Galad]

Still a couple of days to Shadow Step, Escape, use a Smoke Cloud or Feign Death.

 

Would also require boots of speed to avoid the Avenging Storm...

[Dr <3]

Given that pet hits like a slow truck, given you can't durganize a pet or its fur, given that it can't have lash, recovery reduction, or upgrade its dex, and attack as fast as an average weapon, I'd say pet (wolf) does approximatively 1/3 of a rogue with deathblow by itself.

 

Ranger itself does about the same, due to ranged weapon doing less damages than melee and twin arrows getting more dr reduction than sneak, deathblow and other damage modifiers.

 

So in best case, rogue seems better, but is it by far ? Not sure...

The thing for me is that the rogue is able to deal a lot of dmg really fast at the beginning of the fight, with all the attack abilities that trigger full attacks. If you dual wield is really an hallluva of dmg. I just surprised myself today killing the Orlan monk in less time that the initial stun wears off ( 6,5 sec). The rogue is more "explosive" at the beginning, but after he shots withering strike, sap, something more starts to fall behind the twin arrow ranger + pet ( but have usually already killed a couple of people)