Kohl of Uncanny Discernment: higher level weaker Spyglass?

[FatePAC]

Ya but whether to mix it can be optional. Players don't have to mix if they don't want to.

[Hannibal_PJV]

Normal player always put everything in the same box...

So 99.9% would mix everything and cause some terrible new bugs because there would be some trange interactions between cards. And wonder why this is not working.

 

Then someone would blame why it has been allowed in anyway... You can not win!

But the team is willing to implement "all" so who knows what we will see. The online multiplayer will be interesting point in the development and allow a lot of new game modes.

[269Hawkmoon]

I personally find myself using the first power of the Spyglass quite a lot with Harsk and Merisiel.

[Borissimo]

If I were designing the game, I definitely wouldn't allow characters from Base Set X to be used in Base Set Y for one simple reason: money.

 

Say you unlocked everything in RotR and S&S comes out. Now you can just use your Runelords characters in Shackles and the only gold you need to spend is to unlock the adventure decks. When players don't need to split their gold between unlocking characters and unlocking AD's, it's incredibly easy to not pay a dime -- there's plenty of time between releases to accumulate the gold needed to unlock a single AD.

 

Here's another consideration: If each base set is separate, then I bet a lot of players who didn't buy the bundle for Runelords will buy it right away for Shackles. These players didn't know what to expect when they first downloaded Pathfinder Adventures, so they were hesitant to pay $25 and unlocked enough of the game for free that the bundle lost its value. When Shackles comes out, they'll already know it's a quality product, so they'll go ahead and buy the bundle to support the game and to save themselves time.

 

On one extreme are the players who won't pay a cent no matter what; on the other are the players who will always buy the bundle no matter what. I bet that these extremes are small and that the vast majority of players are somewhere in the middle. Allowing the use of old characters in new sets will cost Obsidian a ton of potential income from this key middle group.

 

There are other factors, too. Say Gary rolls up Lirianne, the Gunslinger, in Runelords, where there are no guns. He plays for a few hours before he realizes that he has chosen poorly. What do you think Gary's going to do? Chide himself for not doing his research? Ha. No, he's going to blame the game. It's a sad truth, but it's a truth nonetheless that when a game lets players do stupid things, they always blame the game, not themselves.

 

Finally, consider the characters that were "repeats" from Runelords to Shackles -- Lem, Merisiel, Valeros, and Lini. Suppose I'm one of those "middle" players I mentioned earlier -- I play mostly f2p, but I'll pay as I go for specific things that interest me. Am I going to buy any of these repeat characters? In my opinion, Lem is the only one of the four that's "different but equal" and thus worth buying. Merisiel and Valeros are largely unchanged, and Lini got hardcore nerfed. Perhaps I'm wrong, but the point here isn't to debate the quality of my analysis -- the point is that whenever a "middle" player thinks a new version of a character is equivalent to or worse than the old one, right or wrong, Obsidian loses income from that player.

[Brainwave]

Yeah and while Lirianne is the most obvious example there's plenty of other S&S characters that have powers related to S&S specific cards like ships, that while they'd still be playable here, there would be some useless abilities. Also, I agree with you about the new versions of RotR characters as well. While I could see people unlocking them if it were free (I can think of another online card game where you can unlock hero variants for free and it's a popular feature), having to spend money on a slightly different version of the same character is another issue. I'm sure some would still buy all the content but a lot of people probably wouldn't.

 

I don't own the class decks for the card game so can't speak to that but presumably there's enough new cards and variety to interest the average player.

[da_mayor]

Maybe, but the characters that come with Skull & Shackles all (or ALMOST all) have powers and skills that specifically apply to that setting.  Powers that involve the Swashbuckling trait are fairly significant in that game.  The Survival and Craft skills suddenly become "Gunnery" and "Shipwright" skills.  There are lots of powers that apply specifically to cards with the Aquatic trait.

 

So sure, play your RotR Lini.  She's awesome!

 

But S&S Lini gets a 1d12 for her shapechanging, and if her check's against a card with the Aquatic trait, she can recharge the card to fuel the shapeshift instead of discarding...

[wakasm]

If I were designing the game, I definitely wouldn't allow characters from Base Set X to be used in Base Set Y for one simple reason: money.

 

 

I disagree that money is THE reason why they should be limited...  Obsidian made the choice for it to be F2P on their own... and hamstringing stuff you can do with the real game purely because of money is one fast way to lose your customers, free or no.  If they made stuff free and grindable... then that is on them.  Besides... there are more than enough ways to monetize this game.    

• Adventure Packs
• Character Class Decks
• Treasure Chests (something unique to the app already)
• Unique App Only Experiences (like Obsidian created cards, or Obsidian created scenarios)

... on that alone they could make enough money for the "middle" people to spend something somewhere.  As long as they can keep content flowing consistently... which will hopefully happen once they fix bugs. 

 

The fact that they made it so you can purchase individual characters with gold already means that the "Middle" players will have more than enough flexibility to just spend enough gold to get one or two characters they want in each version anyway... which isn't going to be the thing that makes or breaks the financials of this game.   Based on that... I think characters should be usable however you want... just like the real game.  

 

In addition, the CLASS DECKS are designed to be used in all... so... it's really a moot point if 90% of the characters are designed to be used in any of the games. 

 

However, I completely understand WHY they might not allow them to be usable:  Programming Resources & BUGS

 

Look how much is broken, weird, etc in just the base game.  I can see them limited things because of this reason... although... I do believe they could code around that if they wanted to... since most of the mechanics are consistent through all 3 boxes minus what is extra.  Very similar to Magic the Gathering... 90% of the mechanics work with the legacy stuff just find in the real world card game, so they should be able to program around it.   In fact, it should be simpler since there is no "stack" per say in Pathfinder, only timing inconsistencies to deal with. 

Edited May 13, 2016 by wakasm

[LAntorcha]

I agree with everyone's complaints about later-deck boons being worse than boons you already have. However, I don't think that this Kohl falls into that category. Let's look at the stats side by side:

 

Spyglass

Check to acquire: Wisdom/Perception 4

Ability 1: Reveal to add 1d6 to your Perception check

Ability 2: Discard to scout the top 2 cards of your location deck and put them back in any order

 

Kohl of Whatever the Balls

Check to acquire: Intelligence/Perception 6

Ability 1: Reveal to add 1d4 to your Perception check

Ability 2: Discard to scout the top 2 cards of your location deck and put them back in any order

 

Color added to show differences. Let's compare: the Kohl has a harder check to acquire, but some characters (most notably Ezren) will appreciate the intelligence option. This isn't a big deal. Then the Kohl adds only a d4 instead of d6 to your perception check ... but guys, let's be real here! Who picks up a Spyglass thinking, "ooooooo, +1D6 to my perception checks??? MONEY!!!" Nobody. The power of the spyglass is its scouting ability, and that's identical for the Kohl.

 

Is it the most creative item in the world? No. But it essentially adds another copy of Spyglass to your box, which is amazing. If you found a treasure chest card called Schmaugury that basically did the same thing as Augury but had an acquire check that was harder by 1 or whatever, would you complain that it was worse than Augury? No, you'd be freakin' thrilled to have another Augury!

 

As far as I'm concerned, Obsidian can fill the treasure chests with as many of Kohls of Glassy Spying, Schmauguries, Deathbone Late Crassbows, and Father Schmantuses as they want, as long as it's only the quality boons that are getting copied.

 

Worth every $$$!

Edited May 19, 2016 by LAntorcha

[Cainhu]

In the physical game you can't combine sets together, BUT you can use any character in any adventure path. Except for a few outliers, most of them work nicely in any set.

Also, you may use class decks with any set too. I wonder if it will be chase for treasure chests, or we have different chests for every set.

[Dunesparrow]

Hey there.

 

From page 6 of the Wrath of the Righteous rule book:

 

RULES: COMPATIBILITY WITH OTHER SETS Cards in the Wrath of the Righteous set are intended to be compatible with cards from other sets. Certain cards from one set may not be as effective in another one; for example, the weapon Lance will not be as useful in a set without Mounts. When the same characters or cohorts appear in different sets, they are represented with different cards having different abilities and powers. For example, among other differences, the cleric Kyra has the Knowledge skill in Wrath of the Righteous and the Melee skill in Rise of the Runelords. To distinguish between them, we add the Adventure Path name to the card name. For example, “Wrath of the Righteous Kyra” is a different card than “Rise of the Runelords Kyra,” so you may not exchange feats or role cards between them.

 

and from page 6 of the Skull & Shackles rule book:

 

RULES: COMPATIBILITY WITH OTHER SETS Cards in the Skull & Shackles set are intended to be compatible with cards from other sets. Certain cards from one set may not be as effective in another one; for example, the gunslinger Lirianne will not be as useful in an Adventure Path that doesn't have firearms. When the same character appears in different sets, they are represented with different cards having different abilities and powers. For example, among other differences, the rogue Merisiel has the Craft skill in Skull & Shackles and the Perception skill in Rise of the Runelords. To distinguish between them, we add the Adventure Path name to the card name. For example, “Rise of the Runelords Merisiel” is a different card than “Skull & Shackles Merisiel,” so you may not exchange feats or role cards between them.

 

From these statements, I conclude that:

 

A. all PACG cards are compatible with one another

B. there is no rule that forbids cards from different sets being combined into the same card pool

 

Thanks

[Cainhu]

in my understanding : They are compatible is not equal they are allowed/supposed to mix together for playing the official scenairos. It only means, if you mix them together for home games that won't cause any compatibility problem. (however in some cases it will create other problems or completely illogical things)

 

If you read in the rulebooks that how you should play an Adventure Path it only mentions adding new AP cards when you start an Adventure, and didn't mention any suggestion to mix sets together. Non Adventure Path cards have their rules specified elsewhere - Class Deck cards for example have a card explaining how to add them to a game.

[Dunesparrow]

Hey there.

 

On pages 2 - 4 of the Wrath of the Righteous Rule book, in the Card Sets section, it talks about Adventure Path logos, letters or numbers indicating where a card came from and Class Decks.  I have not found a rule stating that a combining cards from different sets into a card pool is against the rules of the game.

 

On page 17 it does specifically say :

If you're playing an Adventure Path and you successfully complete an adventure, you're ready to move onto the next one.  Add all the cards from the next Adventure deck to the to the box; if you own any Class Decks, you can add any cards from them that have the same adventure deck number as the Adventure Deck cards you just added.

 

Anyway, this discussion has nothing to do with the Kohl of Uncanny discernment.

 

I will post on the PACG boards and see if I can get an Official response.

 

Thanks.

[FatePAC]

I don't think it really matters. You are not supposed to replay scenarios in the physical game and death is death but in the digital version these are options. You have the choice to do it or not. Thats why i liked this and bought the bundle even though i already got the physical one. They made it so that people can choose the fun they like instead of sticking hard to the rules.

Edited May 24, 2016 by FatePAC

[Kgk4569]

I don't think it really matters. You are not supposed to replay scenarios in the physical game and death is death but in the digital version these are options. You have the choice to do it or not. Thats why i liked this and bought the bundle even though i already got the physical one. They made it so that people can choose the fun they like instead of sticking hard to the rules.

 

....You realize that you can totally house rule anything in the physical game, and the rules for the app are based on popular house rules, Right?

[da_mayor]

Actually, there's no rule about replaying Scenarios at all, except on p 19 of the Rulebook: "No character may gain a reward from a given scenario, adventure, or Adventure Path more than once."

 

So, replay all you like, and enjoy all the boons you acquire.  But once a character has received a Scenario, Adventure, or Adventure Path reward, they'll never receive it again.

[FatePAC]

 

 

I don't think it really matters. You are not supposed to replay scenarios in the physical game and death is death but in the digital version these are options. You have the choice to do it or not. Thats why i liked this and bought the bundle even though i already got the physical one. They made it so that people can choose the fun they like instead of sticking hard to the rules.

....You realize that you can totally house rule anything in the physical game, and the rules for the app are based on popular house rules, Right?

Thats why it doesn't really matters what the official stance on mixing is as long as they allow us the choice to do what we like to do.

[Kgk4569]

 

 

I don't think it really matters. You are not supposed to replay scenarios in the physical game and death is death but in the digital version these are options. You have the choice to do it or not. Thats why i liked this and bought the bundle even though i already got the physical one. They made it so that people can choose the fun they like instead of sticking hard to the rules.

....You realize that you can totally house rule anything in the physical game, and the rules for the app are based on popular house rules, Right?

Thats why it doesn't really matters what the official stance on mixing is as long as they allow us the choice to do what we like to do.

 

 

Yes and no. Yes, they can do WHATEVER they want, BUT each Base Game has different mechanics. If I take Cards from A and use them in B, they may not be as effective (very likely in this case), or (possibly) over powered. As we can see from all of the bug tantrums, when people perceive the game to be unfair or unbalanced they don't want to play as much.

 

Obsidian is a business, and if people don't want to play, they don't make money. Paizo can't control what silly things you decide to do once you get the physical game unless they make the cards a different size or something, but Obsidian can. They have the power to take the good house rules (no permadeath, additional farming, TREASURE) and incorporate them into the game, while preventing people from doing things that would make the game less fun.

[FatePAC]

So your fun is right and my fun is wrong?

[Kgk4569]

So your fun is right and my fun is wrong?

 

The statistically proven fun for the majority is greater than the statistically disproven fun for the minority, when designing a system of play that must accommodate the majority.

 

So since we fall on both sides of the issue: Yes.

Edited May 24, 2016 by Kgk4569

[FatePAC]

Your issue with mixing can easily be solved by requiring players to fully finish a set before they can add it to another. 

[Kgk4569]

No... not really. As I said there are different mechanics between each set, Swashbuckling, Ships, Mounts, (more that other people have mentioned). If you take things with these traits into another set they become inadequate. If you take things without these into these settings, what you have is inadequate. The same applies to the characters, the characters in the other sets have powers that aid them in their respective sets, and other characters from different sets become underpowered or even woefully inept when put into these settings.

 

Seriously, just pop on over to BGG, there have been virtual books written on the subject and they all boil down to one thing: "It is not a good idea to mix sets."

[LAntorcha]

Donald Thump says "My Fun is Right, and i'll prosecute other's..."

 

Mixing cards is good.

 

I draw my hand. Got: Axe, Firebolt, Black Lotus, Ace of Spades, Skimmo Grandma and a Topless Calendar. Great!

Edited May 24, 2016 by LAntorcha

[Kgk4569]

Donald Thump says "My Fun is Right, and i'll prosecute other's..."

 

Mixing cards is good.

 

I draw my hand. Got: Axe, Firebolt, Black Lotus, Ace of Spades, Skimmo Grandma and a Topless Calendar. Great!

 

You win. I got a mountain, 2 garbage pail kids, a no-name pitcher from the 80's, and Jigglypuff.

[Dunesparrow]

Hey there.

 

Kgk4569, do you happen to have a link to one of Board Game Geek discussions? I am very interested to see what they say as mixing base sets together is my groups preferred play style.

 

Thanks

[Kgk4569]

Just go look yourself. I don't want to link over tons of threads, just search "mix (set name) and (set name)" and read through the thousands of times it was asked. All of them will talk about how "it is fine, you just need to add this, remove that, change this..." basically not simple.

 

Here is the top of the list just to get you started:

https://boardgamegeek.com/article/22363128#22363128