Tidefall Paladin Advice

[JerekKruger]

Tidefall is a brilliant weapon, possibly the best two-handed weapon in the game, but for various reasons I rarely actually use it. In my next run, and my first run on PotD difficulty, I intend to rectify this and make it my Watcher's primary weapon. I've also wanted to play a Paladin for a while now, but have been putting it off until Faith and Conviction was fixed for the Watcher. Well patch 3.02 did just that so I feel like now is a good time to start a Paladin as well. Hence I'm going to start a Paladin who wields Tidefall.

 

Order: The first question that arises is which order to pick. At the moment I'm leaning towards the Kind Wayfarers (second would probably be Darcozzi Paladini). The question I have is how good is Strange Mercy? I imagine a Paladin, even one built for damage, is going to struggle to reliably get killing blows; is the healing from Strange Mercy good enough to justify it anyway?

 

Race: Race wise I'm probably going to go with an Elf, probably Pale but perhaps Wood. This isn't optimal I'm sure but I like them aesthetically and their racial abilities aren't bad: the Pale Elf will give my Paladin some extra protection against fairly common damage types and the Wood Elf would improve any arquebus alpha strikes and provide a little extra protection from archers and mages at a distance. If I decided to go for a Darcozzi Paladini I'm almost certainly go with Ocean Human for role-playing reasons, and their racial is semi-decent for a melee damage dealer.

 

Attributes: Attribute wise I'm currently thinking of something like:

 

Mig 18

Con 8

Dex 10

Per 16

Int 16

Res 10

 

My reasoning is as follows. I want high Might as the high base damage of a two-handed weapon benefits the most from it (as will an arquebus shot), I want to up my Perception to make up for the Paladin's relatively low accuracy, and I want high Intellect to benefit Sacred Immolation as much as possible. Given I am planning on doing damage I can't really afford to drop my Dexterity much, and since I am going to be in melee I don't want to dump Resolve at all. I figure, not being a primary tank, I can afford to drop Constitution a little without much danger. This also has the benefit of giving all my saves the same attribute bonus so I won't have any weak points there. Any thoughts or suggestions?

 

Abilities: Here's where things become more difficult. Paladins have a lot of nice abilities, and not enough levels to take them all. Here's what I'm thinking at the moment (in the order I'll take them):

 

Lay on Hands

Zealous Focus

Flames of Devotion

Sworn Enemy

Hastening Exhortation

Aegis of Loyalty

Sacred Immolation

???

 

Lay on Hands is so good I feel like I have to take it, but perhaps this is a mistake? Zealous Focus seems like a no-brainer. Flames of Devotion allows for a powerful alpha strike with arquebus and also works well with the high base damage of a two-hander. Sworn Enemy is a big buff against tough enemies, though if I intend to go the Kind Wayfarer's route my Paladin should probably focus on squishier targets first so perhaps this is a bad pick? I have to admit I don't know if a Paladin can exhort themselves, and if they can't then perhaps this isn't the greatest pick, but it's still a great buff for other damage dealers in the party. Aegis of Loyalty gets picked for the lovely synergy with Sacred Immolation rather than for its damage dealing potential. Finally Sacred Immolation gets picked because it's brilliant.

 

Abilities I'm wondering whether I should take:

 

Inspiring Triumph: this once again depends on how reliably I can score killing blows. Thoughts?

Liberating Exhortation: this is a very popular ability amongst people on this forum but I've never used it much when I take it on Pallegina. Presumably I'm missing something about it but I'm not sure what.

Reinforcing Exhortation: if I can exhort myself, then this might be a useful emergency button. Even if I can't it's a useful ability.

Righteous Soul: I can't decide whether this is any good, it's a big buff to the Paladin's charm and dominate saves which synergises well with the Aegis of Loyalty + Sacred Immolation combo, but perhaps Paladins have sufficiently high saves already?

Behold the Martyr: I can't decide whether this is worth taking or not. I guess it depends on how often other members of my party go down.

 

Talents: This is a fair bit easier to pick. Obvious choices are:

 

Weapon Focus Soldier

Two-Handed Style

Savage Attack (annoyingly bugged at the moment)

Vulnerable Attack

Scion of Flame (for Sacred Immolation and Flames of Devotion)

Critical Focus

Intense Flames

 

That leaves one going spare. I'd be tempted to skip Savage attacks given the current bug, though the extra damage is very nice. Other talents that might be worth taking would be The Sword and the Shepherd and Bloody Slaughter (if I go the killing blow route), and perhaps Superior Deflection for a bit more melee survivability. Deep Faith used to be really good value for money, but it's new incarnation seems a bit lacklustre.

 

Other Questions: I like to build Eder as a Lady of Pain, do you think that'd still work or should I build him as a sword and shield fighter for a bit more tankiness?

 

Also any thoughts or suggestions are most welcome.

[omgFIREBALLS]

Zealous Focus seems like a no-brainer.

I don't take it because it doesn't stack with Blessing anyway. Or something. I know it's really easy to suppress it. Not leet enough to tell you if Critical Focus makes it all worth it. Of course if you don't play with a priest then you could go for it.

[JerekKruger]

Huh, I didn't know that. I ought to learn the various buff suppressions to avoid that sort of thing. Thanks for telling me.

[KDubya]

Your build looks well thought out and viable as is. I had an island Aumaua Kind Wayfarer on PotD with Tidefall and he did great. I had int at 10 and resolve at 15 but everything else was really similar to what you have here. On a heavy melee team without casters he led the team in kills and damage. had Pellagina as well for two Paladin awesomeness.

 

Here is what I'd suggest for a second look -

 

Order - Kind Wayfarers are my favorite, the role playing fits well and Strange mercies is really useful now that it scales with level. It was healing like 9/16ths of a LoH in an AoE

 

 

race - Pale elfs are great, just wish they still had facial hair.

 

 

 

Stats - they look good, nicely balanced yet still focused on the role that you want. I'd probably drop one from int and per and put into con to avoid the malus but that is it.

 

 

 

Abilities - I'd skip hastening exhortation as I dislike per rest. Also it will not stack with other speed buffs.

 

For the remaining picks Inspiring Triumph would be OK, you will get a few kills per battle so it'll activate frequently enough to be useful. 

 

Liberating exhortation is nice but can be replaced with the rings.

 

Reinforcing exhortation can be good to make your team tankier, having two Paladins who buff each other is a strong opening move.

 

Righteous soul is good to really raise the defenses.

 

Behold the martyr I don't see the usefulness - how often do you get KOs, and wouldn't it be better to rez them instead of set a beacon?

 

 

 

Talents - I'd take Strange Mercies - it scales, its AoE, and it will activate a few times per fight.

 

I'd skip Critical Focus - +5% hit to crit is garbage.

 

Arms Bearer is nice to have two Arquebus for the FoD and Tidefall for everything else. You can use one FoD Arquebus shot for the Alpha and save the other for when you want a kill to activate your on kill effects. Another thought is to also take Weapon and Shield style and swap to that when you really need to tank up. At the end you have lots of talents and being able to swap to a large superb shield for +34 to deflection and reflex is a nice rabbit to pull out of the hat.

[JerekKruger]

Thanks for the feedback KDubya.

 

race - Pale elfs are great, just wish they still had facial hair.

 

I am fairly certain that as of 3.02 they do, though none of their portraits do of course.

 

Behold the martyr I don't see the usefulness - how often do you get KOs, and wouldn't it be better to rez them instead of set a beacon?

 

I think the strategy I've seen is to sacrifice Ituumak at the start of the battle to use it, though this does get Sagani her sadness malus.

 

Talents - I'd take Strange Mercies - it scales, its AoE, and it will activate a few times per fight.

 

Yeah, I think I shall. I just didn't have much of an idea how reliably a Paladin could get finishing blows on PotD without micromanaging.

 

I'd skip Critical Focus - +5% hit to crit is garbage.

 

Huh, I'd always assumed it was good. I assume it's supressed by Dire Blessing though which is a lot better.

 

Arms Bearer is nice to have two Arquebus for the FoD and Tidefall for everything else. You can use one FoD Arquebus shot for the Alpha and save the other for when you want a kill to activate your on kill effects. Another thought is to also take Weapon and Shield style and swap to that when you really need to tank up. At the end you have lots of talents and being able to swap to a large superb shield for +34 to deflection and reflex is a nice rabbit to pull out of the hat.

 

 

I rarely take Arms Bearer as it seems a waste, but the more I think about it and the more builds I see with it, the more I realise it's really not.

 

[Tennisgolfboll]

Righteouss soul is awesome.

 

Moon like race is incredible.

 

Tidefall is my fav weapon of all

 

Id bump up constitution

 

And get colonist for survival. +60 % healing

 

 

The combo of lay on hands with 60% healing takes you from no hp to full with even if you have high con. And silvertide is +75% hp.

 

To say you can survive enermous amounts of dmg is an understatement. And you deal huge dmg with tidefall.

 

Id also add some defense talents rather than the critical focus, vuln attack, savage attack for amazing saves.

[Ichthyic]

for me it's always a tossup between tidefall and Rumbalt, since rumbalt does way more damage if you are hitting things with low deflection.  plus, free prone.

but otherwise, I would go with the suggestions kdubya made, though I don't think the rings of liberating are a good thing to replace the skill with, since there are actually some really useful rings out there.

 

[Tennisgolfboll]

The bleed effect on tidefall is incredible against bosses. Dragons really bleed from it

 

And it is against bosses i need killing power

Edited April 3, 2016 by Tennisgolfboll

[JerekKruger]

@Tennisgolfboll Moon Godlikes are indeed very powerful, but that's why I avoid them (well that and aesthetics). Thanks for the other suggestions, I might indeed invest in some defensive talents. What I can't work out is whether Deep Faith is worth it or not.

 

@Ichthyic yeah, Rumbalt is a nice weapon. Probably better against weaker enemies. I can use both and switch them out where appropriate.

[Tennisgolfboll]

Deep faith is a tiny amount better than the standard defensive talents.

 

But defense is better the more you have of it. So getting +10 to will, fort, reflex and then deep faith is nice

[JerekKruger]

Well, it's going well so far. I ended up going with an Island Aumaua since I feel Pale Elves look a bit weird wielding Great Swords (they're too slight). I also dropped Intellect and Perception by a point each and raised Constitution to 10 as KDubya suggested.

 

I just finished clearing Caed Nua and killed Maerwald with a level 3 party and only one rest. By the end my party was pretty beat up though. Also PotD really is a step up from Hard, I got wiped by the group of boars on Magran's Fork of all places

Edited April 5, 2016 by JerekKruger

[KDubya]

Those Boars are no joke!

 

I've been wiped by them more than once. The new resting bonus vs beasts comes in handy now in clearing some maps.

[Crucis]

Jerek, maybe it's just my play style, but to me, Arms Bearer is a must have talent, and I really need a good reason NOT to take it, rather than the reverse.  I usually don't take it with Durance, for example, because he only has 2 favored weapons (sword and arquebus), and any other weapon type would take a serious accuracy hit, so I usually don't bother with the extra weapon slot for him.

 

But most of the time, I like having my characters carry 2 melee weapons covering 2 different damage types, and one ranged weapon.  I prefer having significant flexibility in my choice of weapons. 

Edited April 5, 2016 by Crucis

[JerekKruger]

I'm coming round to this point of view I think, especially since I really can't afford to be having characters doing little or no damage on PotD.

[JerekKruger]

Those Boars are no joke!

 

I've been wiped by them more than once. The new resting bonus vs beasts comes in handy now in clearing some maps.

 

So I've learnt 

 

Yeah, the resting bonus allowed me, Eder and Aloth to beat the Valewood bears and the bonus vs spirits was very handy in Caed Nua.

[JerekKruger]

Raedric down. The fight was pretty easy to be honest, though Aloth got knocked unconscious. My entire party was level 5 and I had six of them so that's probably why it was easy I'm guessing. My Paladin is now rocking Justice whilst he waits to get Tidefall.

 

EDIT: I will say that having Deceptive as a negative disposition for my Kind Wayfarer is a pain. I couldn't resolve Lord Byrnwigar the way I wanted (sending Aloth) as that involved lying, and after letting the looters near Madhar Bridge take the stuff (Benevolent) I was forced to either lie to the merchant or simply not complete the quest. I lied, but now I am paranoid about ever doing so again.

Edited April 5, 2016 by JerekKruger

[omgFIREBALLS]

I completely enjoy making my Watcher a paladin and avoiding my disfavored dispositions at all costs. [Deceptive]

[Elric Galad]

I just can't stand being a Paladin. Even when NPC paladins were UP, I still used NPC ones. So I don't have this kind of problems.

[KDubya]

I have the descriptions turned off for dialogue, makes the choices more meaningful as you don't exactly know what will be the result. With my Kind Wayfarer it was easy to pick anything that did not involve lying or sounded cruel, and when possible I tried to be benevolent or passionate. Avoiding lying ended up with a 4 Honesty which comes in handy.

 

For the looters with the merchant I held court in the street and meted out justice. Letting criminals steal for whatever reason doesn't sound very benevolent to me. In the end I still had max disposition without any negative so it all worked in the end.

[Crucis]

Raedric down. The fight was pretty easy to be honest, though Aloth got knocked unconscious. My entire party was level 5 and I had six of them so that's probably why it was easy I'm guessing. My Paladin is now rocking Justice whilst he waits to get Tidefall.

 

EDIT: I will say that having Deceptive as a negative disposition for my Kind Wayfarer is a pain. I couldn't resolve Lord Byrnwigar the way I wanted (sending Aloth) as that involved lying, and after letting the looters near Madhar Bridge take the stuff (Benevolent) I was forced to either lie to the merchant or simply not complete the quest. I lied, but now I am paranoid about ever doing so again.

 

I'd suggest that this is why the Untroubled Faith in-class talent is useful, because it allows you to ignore the effects of those negative dispositions.

[JerekKruger]

I'd suggest that this is why the Untroubled Faith in-class talent is useful, because it allows you to ignore the effects of those negative dispositions.

 

Yeah, I just feel like it's a waste talent, but the game is sometimes a bit unfair in what it lets you do. I had to let Gordy have the March Steel Dagger because apparently the only other options available to me we to threaten him or to lie to him, to my mind there ought to have been an option to simply say "I don't think this dagger is suitable for a child" and not have him reveal his secret, but apparently that didn't occur to my Paladin.

 

Edit: to add, if this wasn't my first PotD playthrough I might consider taking it, but at the moment I am being a bit more powergamey than I usually am.

Edited April 5, 2016 by JerekKruger

[Crucis]

 

I'd suggest that this is why the Untroubled Faith in-class talent is useful, because it allows you to ignore the effects of those negative dispositions.

 

Yeah, I just feel like it's a waste talent, but the game is sometimes a bit unfair in what it lets you do. I had to let Gordy have the March Steel Dagger because apparently the only other options available to me we to threaten him or to lie to him, to my mind there ought to have been an option to simply say "I don't think this dagger is suitable for a child" and not have him reveal his secret, but apparently that didn't occur to my Paladin.

 

Edit: to add, if this wasn't my first PotD playthrough I might consider taking it, but at the moment I am being a bit more powergamey than I usually am.

 

 

I basically agree with you. 

 

IIRC, that small quest where you get a medicine for a pregnant woman in GIlded Vale requires you to either tell her that it's not really a medicine, or you tell her a little white lie to let her think it'll work, and you get tagged for being deceptive.  Being tagged as deceptive in this situation seems rather wrong to me.  It's not like you're doing it for personal gain.  You're just trying to ease the mind of a pregnant woman with a little white lie and a useless, but harmless potion.  That hardly seems to justify a "deceptive" reputation point.  Deceptive rep points should be reserved for more self-serving, deceitful actions, not deceptive actions taken for altruistic, benevolent reasons.

[JerekKruger]

IIRC, that small quest where you get a medicine for a pregnant woman in GIlded Vale requires you to either tell her that it's not really a medicine, or you tell her a little white lie to let her think it'll work, and you get tagged for being deceptive.  Being tagged as deceptive in this situation seems rather wrong to me.  It's not like you're doing it for personal gain.  You're just trying to ease the mind of a pregnant woman with a little white lie and a useless, but harmless potion.  That hardly seems to justify a "deceptive" reputation point.  Deceptive rep points should be reserved for more self-serving, deceitful actions, not deceptive actions taken for altruistic, benevolent reasons.

 

Yeah, that one bugs me. At the very least I'd like an option where you're honest, but then also add "you should probably take the potion anyway, it might help you in other ways" whilst at the moment if you tell her the truth she decides not to take the potion at all.

 

Don't get me wrong, I think the disposition system is a decent idea, certainly better than most morality systems in games, it's just sometimes a bit wonky.

[JerekKruger]

So it turns out that Drakes on PotD are pretty damn tough for a level 5 party. I guess I'll be coming back for Tidefall later 

 

EDIT: They're still tough at level 6, but I managed. Cail the Silent has always been a walkover on my hard playthroughs but here he was genuinely a pretty tough fight. I've also found a new fondness for Prayer Against Fear.

 

Anyway, I now have Tidefall. Would I be right in thinking the best Lash to put on it would be Burning, since I'm eventually planning on taking Scion of Flames?

Edited April 6, 2016 by JerekKruger

[Crucis]

Jerek, unless you have the Gloves of Manipulation and/or the scroll that enhances Mechanics skill, and/or perhaps even a Mechanics skill boost from an inn or your stronghold, I'm not sure that a level 5 party could have a character with a high enough Mechanics skill to even spot where Tidefall's hidden.  I suppose that it's possible though.  (And I'm thinking you probably know this, not that I think about it.)