Post 3.0: Paladins.....

[KDubya]

 

Here is the Kind Wayfarer that I have that has lead the team in both total damage and most per hit. This is with equipment, the Inn bonus from Stalwart and wielding TideFall.

 

Compared to Gromnir's Grace this guy is more damaging but less tanky and less intellect.

[Rosbjerg]

what difficulty level is this? and what's order of your main? ...... just trying to figure out why I can't make my main Pally work....Pallegina is great I agree, specially as her order skills are entirely unique and useful.......

 

Mostly I play on Hard, but I played on POTD fine enough - just didn't like that took so long to mob up every fight. I get owned by dragons though, but that's mostly because I don't know how to deal with them effectively.

 

The toon is Bleak Walker and Nature Godlike - which is not a terrible effective combo to be honest or rather it could be more effective.. But I wanted a Cruel playthrough and try a Godlike.

 

So far the only classes I've found to be woefully underwhelming is Rogue, Barbarian and Cipher - and that's entirely because I can't play them right, so I think it's great that Obz has managed to make a game where I can actually build pretty much any party combination I want that fits my playstyle and have it be viable enough. In most similar games I've found I'm often forced to learn how to play that one most effective class, because if you don't then the game is unbeatable on the higher difficulties.

[atua]

@Brimsurfer: With 10 Dex & 10 Per on a damage dealing character, no wonder he can't hit anything. You'll want to bump at least one of those depending on whether you go 2 hand or 2 weapon focus.

 

My main tank/main healer Moon Godlike Darcozzi paladin's (Living Lands) stats are: 17 MIG, 16 CON, 4 DEX, 6 PER, 17 INT, 18 RES

For a front-line dps, I might go Hearth Orlan (Living Lands): 18 MIG, 8 CON, 18 DEX, 14 PER, 10 INT, 10 RES using dual stilettos/sabres like Vent Pick/Purgatory. Dual weapons work best for full attack skills like Flames of Devotion. Average intelligence means smaller aura/sacred immolation but 10 Int could still be big enough for your needs. Pull a few points from perception if you want.

For a second-line melee, I might go Coastal Aumaua (Living Lands): 21 MIG, 8 CON, 10 DEX, 18 PER, 18 INT, 3 RES using Tall Grass/Llawren's Stick. The resolve loss is annoying, but mitigated by using a reach weapon, so shouldn't get interrupted very often.

Edited March 18, 2016 by atua

[Brimsurfer]

 

 

 

 

I have a main and Pallegina as the two forward semi tank and damage dealers - on their own they are great, but supported by a druid it's so effective that I don't even need anything else in the party. Meaning I can bring less effective party members along for the story etc, because whatever happens I can always rely on that trio to kill or outlast anything. 

 

My main is using the soulbound 2hander that requires 5 revivials to level, I've had to actively take him down myself in order to achieve it simply because he can take out everything on his own without much supervising.

 

So I think they are incredibly effective. But it's not a mini/max kinda class, they are however great for someone like me how like smaller more consistent bonuses rather than having to micro manage 2-3 casters etc.

what difficulty level is this? and what's order of your main? ...... just trying to figure out why I can't make my main Pally work....Pallegina is great I agree, specially as her order skills are entirely unique and useful.......

 

...............

'cause if you wish for him to output more single target DPS than a specialized monk or rogue, or AOE DPS than a barbarian, I think you're chasing a fleeting dream.

 

 

When did I ever say that I want him to do single target DPS? I have already said it many times what I want him to do.....scroll up pls....

 

 

 

That was merely an example.

 

You're deliberately being a huge pain in the ass towards people actively trying to help you out with building the character in a way you would like.

 

So, I'm out, enjoy trolling your own thread.

 

Nobody is trying to help, I can honestly say that at this point, they are just telling me fairy tales probably because they didn't like what I said about Paladins......probably Gromnir is the only one who has shown some sense....but rest is just fairy tales......

 

Zealot love is ruling the day here and nothing more....

Edited March 18, 2016 by Brimsurfer

[Brimsurfer]

@Brimsurfer: With 10 Dex & 10 Per on a damage dealing character, no wonder he can't hit anything. You'll want to bump at least one of those depending on whether you go 2 hand or 2 weapon focus.....

 

Paladin is not a damage dealing character and the game says Perception is not important for Paladins, so I am going to keep it at average score of 10 or 12, its meant to be resilient support......

Edited March 18, 2016 by Brimsurfer

[Brimsurfer]

 

 

I have never seen someone make it so difficult to help them. 

 

That's because my experience with this class is going against what I am being told......and I am not very happy about that

 

 

.................................

 

EDIT:  And no wonder you think you can't hit anything with a 10 PER.  You have a pally with plenty of HP due to the 14 CON and plenty of Might with which to do damage (and healing), but a reduced ability to hit things with that low PER.  Your pally would have been better off if you'd flipped the CON and PER scores.

 

 

Game tells me Resolve, Might and Constitution are important for Paladins, it doesn't list Perception amongst the preferred attributes for Paladins, so you are wrong I SHOULD NOT need Perception for my Pally to be effective as per game.....I am playing it the way game is telling me to, so having average Perception should work......

Edited March 18, 2016 by Brimsurfer

[atua]

 

@Brimsurfer: With 10 Dex & 10 Per on a damage dealing character, no wonder he can't hit anything. You'll want to bump at least one of those depending on whether you go 2 hand or 2 weapon focus.....

 

Paladin is not a damage dealing character and the game says Perception is not important for Paladins, so I am going to keep it at average score of 10 or 12

 

Are you serious? You won't take good advice and then complain that no one's trying to help you?! You say that paladins aren't a damage dealing class, but don't like the healing support paladin's *can* give (lay-on-hands/healing chain/reviving exhortation/sacred immolation) and then complain that they're not doing any damage, but won't respec to fix that. And you know that game "advice" hasn't been fixed after the Perception/Accuracy change right? So you'll take outdated game advice over people who've actually played/finished the game with a paladin in PotD...

 

@dam is right, you need to stop trolling your own thread.

[kvaak]

^ Don't forget strange mercy, it heals for a rather obscene amount considering all it requires you to do is kill something, something you'll do anyway.

 

I'm currently running a strange mercy + inspiring triumph death godlike focused solely on killing blows. His flames of devotion can crit for triple digits at the start of act 3. On a kill that's free defenses and massive healing for everyone (except himself, sadly). On top of that he brings instant resurrection with huge range, accuracy aura with graze -> hit and whatnot.

Edited March 18, 2016 by kvaak

[Brimsurfer]

 

 

@Brimsurfer: With 10 Dex & 10 Per on a damage dealing character, no wonder he can't hit anything. You'll want to bump at least one of those depending on whether you go 2 hand or 2 weapon focus.....

 

Paladin is not a damage dealing character and the game says Perception is not important for Paladins, so I am going to keep it at average score of 10 or 12

 

Are you serious? ............

 

 

Are YOU serious? (that's more to the point)

[Brimsurfer]

^ Don't forget strange mercy, it heals for a rather obscene amount considering all it requires you to do is kill something, something you'll do anyway.

 

I'm currently running a strange mercy + inspiring triumph death godlike focused solely on killing blows. His flames of devotion can crit for triple digits at the start of act 3.

I already said we are not talking about KWs I know how they work, the attribute spread that works for them mostly goes against the game's recommendation for Paladins and I don't feel right doing that..........so I ain't playing KWs......I want to play the game the way its meant to be played as per game instructions........

[Elric Galad]

Perception for damage dealing is rather inferior to might. Perception starts getting better for CC/debuff or interrupt

 

Per should stay at 10 for paladin.

[atua]

Hmm....I am running with Shieldbearer (Not sure why he is called Shieldbearer doesn't have any Shield related talents or abilities)

 

M 14

C 14

D 10

P 10

I 13

R 16 

 

I figured since I will be at front so I would need some Constitution but still my health runs out before Endurance and I barely hit anyone even with accuracy buffs and my fighter is my main tank and monk is more like a resilient destroyer , i dont know WTF is this Paladin he literally can't do crap except for casting his zealous aura....

 

You're the one who's complaining that you can "barely hit anyone". Bumping perception is the obvious solution to fixing that. But your counter-argument is, "no, I won't fix my perception because the game says so" even though that info is way out of date. Yes, the game should change that advice, but others have tried to update you with current info. If you won't be helped, stop wasting everyone's time.

 

Perception for damage dealing is rather inferior to might. Perception starts getting better for CC/debuff or interrupt

 

Per should stay at 10 for paladin.

Not disagreeing that might is still more important to paladins. But I was specifically addressing his "can't hit anything" issue. Also 16 resolve for a non-tank character is overkill, unless you want it high for role playing reasons. Edited March 18, 2016 by atua

[gogocactus]

That was merely an example.

 

You're deliberately being a huge pain in the ass towards people actively trying to help you out with building the character in a way you would like.

 

So, I'm out, enjoy trolling your own thread.

For what it's worth, I recommend anyone to look up other posts by Brimsurfer on these forums and see whether you can't discover a pattern. In various other topics too, you will find a similar dynamics: complaining in a vague or obtuse manner;refusing to accept advise or criticism; refusing to clarify his own position; only to then repeat his same old argument and thus

'stirring up the pot' again.

 

That is not to say Brimsurfer has no valid point to start with. However, rather than refusing to advance the argument beyond its original position, it would be nice to show a more cooperative and productive attitude in the discussion.

Edited March 18, 2016 by gogocactus

[kvaak]

Those recommendations haven't been changed since the game's launch. Back then perception didn't increase accuracy.

 

Gimping yourself due to outdated descriptions is still gimping yourself. Also inspiring triumph isn't exclusive to KW/BW.

 

 

As for me, I find it entirely unproductive in so far as that no matter which topic, Brimsurfer will refuse to advance the argument beyond his own original, vague position. As for the reasons why: I'm not sure whether he's deliberately trolling, or in dire need of attention...

 

 

The two often go hand in hand.

Edited March 18, 2016 by kvaak

[Brimsurfer]

 

That was merely an example.

 

You're deliberately being a huge pain in the ass towards people actively trying to help you out with building the character in a way you would like.

 

So, I'm out, enjoy trolling your own thread.

For what it's worth, I recommend anyone to look up other posts by Brimsurfer on these forums and see whether you can't discover a pattern. In various other topics too, you will find a similar dynamics: complaining in a vague or obtuse manner;refusing to accept advise or criticism; refusing to clarify his own position; only to then repeat his same old argument and thus

'stirring up the pot' again.

 

As for me, I find it entirely unproductive in so far as that no matter which topic, Brimsurfer will refuse to advance the argument beyond his own original position.

 

 

The sun is up and about and specifically on this forum a group of people tell me its midnight, what should I do? Should I believe them...... or trust my own eyes? There is a trend on this forum to blindly take sides with several lackings of the game and accept them as quite valid.......

 

Its a game with good gameplay no doubt, but when I find something lacking or underwhelming and I come on this forum to talk about it, there is a group of people who give me unreal advice while glorifying that underwhelming aspect of the game .......... so I just simply stick to what I have been saying until I find something useful......... 

Edited March 18, 2016 by Brimsurfer

[Brimsurfer]

 

Hmm....I am running with Shieldbearer (Not sure why he is called Shieldbearer doesn't have any Shield related talents or abilities)

 

M 14

C 14

D 10

P 10

I 13

R 16 

 

I figured since I will be at front so I would need some Constitution but still my health runs out before Endurance and I barely hit anyone even with accuracy buffs and my fighter is my main tank and monk is more like a resilient destroyer , i dont know WTF is this Paladin he literally can't do crap except for casting his zealous aura....

 

You're the one who's complaining that you can "barely hit anyone". Bumping perception is the obvious solution to fixing that. But your counter-argument is, "no, I won't fix my perception because the game says so" even though that info is way out of date. Yes, the game should change that advice, but others have tried to update you with current info. If you won't be helped, stop wasting everyone's time.

 

 

How can you say info is out of date, game is being updated on regular basis? He should have abilities that will allow him to be successful in melee with average Perception, specially if its not a preferred attribute (not expecting him to be DPS or anything but at least pull his own weight on the lines) the enemy just skips him or just simply disengages from him and he can't do anything to stop them, he also mostly miss his disengage attacks and just stand there watching them run by.......

 

I do not expect him to hit enemies like a rogue or a monk but at least land couple of attacks once in a while, I don't think I should need high perception for a low dps character like this........

Edited March 18, 2016 by Brimsurfer

[atua]

Obsidian's build "recommendations" only apply to whatever archetypal build they had in mind for the class, which in the paladin's case seems to be tanking. From their own class description: "Many paladins hold leadership positions in armies and mercenary companies, but in the heat of the battle their fanaticism often overrules the chain of command - and common sense." Leadership, as in main tank. My current tank paladin follows their stat allocation recommendations in resolve/might/constitution/intelligence: M 17, C 16, D 4, P 6, I 17, R 18. He can't hit the broad side of a barn and attacks slower than an arthritic grandma, but that's fine because he's just there to be a meatshield. You're NOT trying to build a main tank, so of course you're going to get unsatisfactory results by blindly following the same template.

Edited March 18, 2016 by atua

[Brimsurfer]

Obsidian's build "recommendations" only apply to whatever archetypal build they had in mind for the class, which in the paladin's case seems to be tanking. .....

 

Paladins are not (designed as) tanks, simple proof is that they do not have any class talents dedicated to tanking, they are meant to be resilient frontliners with support abilities in combination with some offensive skills........and now their base deflection and endurance both are dumbed down to average in comparison to actual tank classes which start with high or very high base deflection......in my experience this whole package is pretty underwhelming, they are only good for removing a couple of conditions and casting their zealous aura, which ain't really much in comparison to other classes and how they fill their roles........

Edited March 18, 2016 by Brimsurfer

[atua]

 

Obsidian's build "recommendations" only apply to whatever archetypal build they had in mind for the class, which in the paladin's case seems to be tanking. .....

 

Paladins are not (designed as) tanks, simple proof is that they do not have any class talents dedicated to tanking, they are meant to be resilient frontliners with support abilities in combination with some offensive skills........and now their base deflection and endurance both are dumbed down to average in comparison to actual tank classes which start with high or very high base deflection......in my experience this whole package is pretty underwhelming, they are only good for removing a couple of conditions and casting their zealous aura, which ain't really much in comparison to other classes and how they fill their roles........

 

I guess I must have imagined the time my paladin tanked Alpine & Adra Dragon alone, sans buffs, for over a minute while the rest of my party cleaned up the adds since you insist paladins can't tank.

 

I assume by "actual tank classes" you mean classes like fighters? Let's have a look at their tanking abilities then:

1. Constant Recovery - worse than Lay on Hands

2. Knockdown - see Overbearing Guard

3. Defender - got nerfed into the ground and now lowers deflection. Worthless.

4. Guardian - a wash with Reinforcing Exhortation

5. Vigorous Defense - so warriors have to take an ability to get a temporary +20 fort/will/reflex buff that paladins get for free all the time with Faith and Conviction. Okay...

6. Overbearing Guard - ok, I'll give you this one. Yes, paladins have no crowd control. Oh well, they can't do everything.

7. Fearless - frightened/terrified isn't as annoying as the confuse/charm/domination handled by Aegis of Loyalty, but either way you can use scroll/priest

8. Unbending - see Constant Recovery

9. Critical Defense - by the time you get this talent, your deflection should be so high that you'd only get crit once in a blue moon. Not terrible, but that strong an ability either

10. Unbroken - in my games, tanks are always the last to die, so if my tank is dying something's gone terribly wrong and I'm reloading anyway. If your tanks are regularly dying, you should do something about your tactics instead. I don't use "second chance" gear (like Argwes Adra) on my tanks either, so this ability's of no value to me

11. Take the Hit - good ability to protect a squishy rogue. Paladins would probably use Reinforcing Exhortation + heal through this, so I'll call this a wash.

12. Triggered Immunity - this is a nice ability. I'll give the nod to warriors here.

 

So 1, 3, 5, 8 are straight up worse than paladins. 4, 7, 10, 11 are basically a wash. So it's just critical defense that's marginal and crowd control & triggered immunity that's better. Ok, so fighters have better damage spike protection. But you conveniently forget the fact that some of the hardest hitting bosses like dragons or Concelhaut do Fort/Reflex/Will attacks (like dragon breath attacks vs reflex, for example) and that those abilities are there to help fighters make up the 20+ deficit vs paladins on those defenses. You simplistically count up the number of tanking abilities and conclude fighters are "better tanks" because they have more tanking abilities without taking into account the underlying mechanics or take into account how strong a fully levelled up Faith & Conviction is. You look at that "low" base deflection paladins have, but don't include the deflection bonus that Faith & Conviction & favored dispositions will add back. As for base endurance, paladins & warriors are the same, so I don't know what you're talking about. Monks have higher health, but they need it because of the wounds mechanic.

 

As for crowd control, it's definitely one point fighters have over paladins. But actually fighter knockdown/prone is not a particularly strong CC, and many classes can crowd control better like wizards or ciphers, so I'm happy to defer that job to them. Also paladins have skills like revive or haste buff that fighters don't have.

 

If you're going to say paladins are a weak class, at least base it on the facts. But it's clear at this point that it doesn't matter how good or bad the class is, because you've already made up your mind that "paladins suck", based on some very narrow, preconceived, arbitrary ideas of how the class is "supposed" to work. Ideas that have nothing to do with in-game mechanics or lore. So just do everyone a favor and reroll, because you're never going to like this class.

Edited March 19, 2016 by atua

[Brimsurfer]

 

 

Obsidian's build "recommendations" only apply to whatever archetypal build they had in mind for the class, which in the paladin's case seems to be tanking. .....

 

Paladins are not (designed as) tanks, simple proof is that they do not have any class talents dedicated to tanking, they are meant to be resilient frontliners with support abilities in combination with some offensive skills........and now their base deflection and endurance both are dumbed down to average in comparison to actual tank classes which start with high or very high base deflection......in my experience this whole package is pretty underwhelming, they are only good for removing a couple of conditions and casting their zealous aura, which ain't really much in comparison to other classes and how they fill their roles........

 

I guess I must have imagined the time my paladin tanked Alpine & Adra Dragon alone, sans buffs, for over a minute while the rest of my party cleaned up the adds since you insist paladins can't tank.

 

I assume by "actual tank classes" you mean classes like fighters? Let's have a look at their tanking abilities then:

1. Constant Recovery - worse than Lay on Hands

2. Knockdown - see Overbearing Guard

3. Defender - got nerfed into the ground and now lowers deflection. Worthless.

4. Guardian - a wash with Reinforcing Exhortation

5. Vigorous Defense - so warriors have to take an ability to get a temporary +20 fort/will/reflex buff that paladins get for free all the time with Faith and Conviction. Okay...

6. Overbearing Guard - ok, I'll give you this one. Yes, paladins have no crowd control. Oh well, they can't do everything.

7. Fearless - frightened/terrified isn't as annoying as the confuse/charm/domination handled by Aegis of Loyalty, but either way you can use scroll/priest

8. Unbending - see Constant Recovery

9. Critical Defense - by the time you get this talent, your deflection should be so high that you'd only get crit once in a blue moon. Not terrible, but that strong an ability either

10. Unbroken - in my games, tanks are always the last to die, so if my tank is dying something's gone terribly wrong and I'm reloading anyway. If your tanks are regularly dying, you should do something about your tactics instead. I don't use "second chance" gear (like Argwes Adra) on my tanks either, so this ability's of no value to me

11. Take the Hit - good ability to protect a squishy rogue. Paladins would probably use Reinforcing Exhortation + heal through this, so I'll call this a wash.

12. Triggered Immunity - this is a nice ability. I'll give the nod to warriors here.

 

So 1, 3, 5, 8 are straight up worse than paladins. 4, 7, 10, 11 are basically a wash. So it's just critical defense that's marginal and crowd control & triggered immunity that's better. Ok, so fighters have better damage spike protection. But you conveniently forget the fact that some of the hardest hitting bosses like dragons or Concelhaut do Fort/Reflex/Will attacks (like dragon breath attacks vs reflex, for example) and that those abilities are there to help fighters make up the 20+ deficit vs paladins on those defenses. You simplistically count up the number of tanking abilities and conclude fighters are "better tanks" because they have more tanking abilities without taking into account the underlying mechanics or take into account how strong a fully levelled up Faith & Conviction is. You look at that "low" base deflection paladins have, but don't include the deflection bonus that Faith & Conviction & favored dispositions will add back. As for base endurance, paladins & warriors are the same, so I don't know what you're talking about. Monks have higher health, but they need it because of the wounds mechanic.

 

As for crowd control, it's definitely one point fighters have over paladins. But actually fighter knockdown/prone is not a particularly strong CC, and many classes can crowd control better like wizards or ciphers, so I'm happy to defer that job to them. Also paladins have skills like revive or haste buff that fighters don't have.

 

If you're going to say paladins are a weak class, at least base it on the facts. But it's clear at this point that it doesn't matter how good or bad the class is, because you've already made up your mind that "paladins suck", based on some very narrow, preconceived, arbitrary ideas of how the class is "supposed" to work. Ideas that have nothing to do with in-game mechanics or lore. So just do everyone a favor and reroll, because you're never going to like this class.

 

 

That's exactly what I meant by unrealistic advice, this topic is not about the usefulness of skills according to your imagination. 

 

PS. BTW I lost interest by the time I got to middle of your delusional post, didn't read the rest.......you can probably wake up now....

[atua]

 

Paladins are not (designed as) tanks, simple proof is that they do not have any class talents dedicated to tanking, they are meant to be resilient frontliners with support abilities in combination with some offensive skills........and now their base deflection and endurance both are dumbed down to average in comparison to actual tank classes which start with high or very high base deflection ......in my experience this whole package is pretty underwhelming, they are only good for removing a couple of conditions and casting their zealous aura, which ain't really much in comparison to other classes and how they fill their roles........

That's exactly what I meant by unrealistic advice, this topic is not about the usefulness of skills according to your imagination. 

 

PS. BTW I lost interest by the time I got to middle of your delusional post, didn't read the rest.......you can probably wake up now....

 

Yes, I must have imagined the extra 10 deflection & 20 Fort/Reflex/Will on my paladin and that my paladin and fighter have with the same health & endurance progression. I must be delusional, because Brimsurfer decrees it so. That's what all your arguments amount to.

 

Since your opinions have no basis in fact, you can only falling back to ad hominem attacks as a last resort. You have not grounded your complaints in logic or common sense. You're not after help, just a soapbox to make irrational rants. No point feeding a troll any further; it's what the ignore user feature's for.

Edited March 19, 2016 by atua

[Brimsurfer]

 

That's exactly what I meant by unrealistic advice, this topic is not about the usefulness of skills according to your imagination. 

 

PS. BTW I lost interest by the time I got to middle of your delusional post, didn't read the rest.......you can probably wake up now....

Yes, I must have imagined an extra 20 Fort/Reflex/Will on my paladin. /s

 

Since your opinions have no basis in fact, you can only falling back to ad hominem attacks as a last resort. You have not at any point during this thread grounded your complaints in logic or facts. You're not after help, just a soapbox to make irrational rants. No point feeding a troll any further; it's what the ignore user feature's for.

 

 

Your perceived degrees of usefulness of skills are entirely subjective, what I have seen myself in the game negates that......

[peko]

The sun is up and about and specifically on this forum a group of people tell me its midnight, what should I do? Should I believe them...... or trust my own eyes? There is a trend on this forum to blindly take sides with several lackings of the game and accept them as quite valid.......

I find it quite fitting that, given the right circumstances, the sun could be up at midnight.

[limaxophobiacq]

I don't really have anything to add beyond my initial post unless I'm going to write up how I think you should build a paladin, and you could find something like that on the char-build board, but seriously.......... What's with all the dots..............?

Edited March 19, 2016 by limaxophobiacq

[NoobersCheesyBear]

I find palading a good support class.

 

+ tanky build allows to do frontend customer service together with tank

+ strong and fast heals that can literally save a team mate in the last second

+ heals are per encounter so you dont have to camp after every couple fights cuz your burned through your priest spells

+ strong and fast res

+ permanent accuracy bonus aura (one simply cannot have enough accuracy)