Main Story, an atheist cliche?

[Stoner]

Okay, made-up fantasy world aside, I still don't undertsand why ideas of this story is so offending for believers? To use simple logic: monotheistic religion is built upon belief in certain deity, not single living being in this world knows WHAT is this deity, how does it look like and where it comes from, it may as well have synthetic nature, and maybe our science will advance one day so much, that it could confirm and describe true nature of the god, if such a thing even exists. If this would happen, will it ruin peoples' religion? Why exactly?

 

In RPGs I often roleplay characters who contradicts my own beliefs and views completely, and I had no problem roleplay the certain god follower (Galawain) in this game, I don't see critical difference. Deities in this game at least manifest, they have great power, we can somehow communicate with them, not just blind faith based on not even smallest evidence. I'd take such sythetic gods over real religion in a blink. Gods in Pillars aren't evil by nature, they are REAL in more ways than one and they are interested in prosperity of kith. We fighting only a single god and its follower who represented as villian. I don't think truly atheistic individuals can create something like this... or OP rather has very narrow understanding of non-believer views on that matter and universe en masse...

[kvaak]

In RPGs I often roleplay characters who contradicts my own beliefs and views completely, and I had no problem roleplay the certain god follower (Galawain) in this game, I don't see critical difference. Deities in this game at least manifest, they have great power, we can somehow communicate with them, not just blind faith based on not even smallest evidence. I'd take such sythetic gods over real religion in a blink. Gods in Pillars aren't evil by nature, they are REAL in more ways than one and they are interested in prosperity of kith. We fighting only a single god and its follower who represented as villian. I don't think truly atheistic individuals can create something like this... or OP rather has very narrow understanding of non-believer views on that matter and universe en masse...

 

As far as I'm concerned anyone who kicks kittens IRL is a terrible person. That doesn't prevent me from kicking a kitten in a video game although I'm inclined to not do so. A game has a bunch of animals. You can't interact them, but in a very particular place you find a kitten you have the option to kick. Aren't you curious to see why such a glaring exception suddenly pops up? There's a good chance you'll find out if you kick the kitten. Or maybe someone will reward you later because you didn't kick that kitten just because you could.

 

Regardless of what I end up doing and the consequences that may (not) follow it's entirely possible the game developer put that kitten there just because he's a sadistic person that likes to kick kittens. That would be hardly the first conclusion I'd jump to but OP certainly seems convinced that's the case, plus all these kitten-kicking options could turn players into kitten-kickers. After all there certainly are sadistic people out there who like kicking kittens so when such an option pops up it's clearly the case the game developer is one of them!

 

Also OP: Weren't you supposed to leave this thread and create a new one in reddit?

Edited March 11, 2016 by kvaak

[Brimsurfer]

Oh, the question of religious doubt / atheism / whatever vis-a-vis the ending is a perfectly valid and interesting one. And I'd certainly expect to see, in POE2, cases where the player can choose to continue to worship these 'fake' gods, or to come across NPCs that have good reasons for protecting their religious faith. 

 

The OP just began with a basic confusion about (1) a fictional story where the gods are artificially constructed, and (2) the range of reasonable options that the player might be given as a response. It's like playing a game where you find out X murdered some jews and gives you some options, and the OP is complaining that the game is biased because you can't argue that X is not a murderer.

 

Then, over the course of the thread, the OP began to aggregate selected pieces of misinformation to increasingly convince himself that this is a partisan conspiracy: e.g. believing that Josh Sawyer is solely and specifically responsible for the ending story (not true). He also refused to really respond to counter-arguments, instead choosing to repeat himself over and over and over and over and over again; e.g. he does not understand that the entire point of the story, as told in the game, is that religion and faith and gods may not be meaningless or fake just because you find out the gods are constructed.

 

*shrug*

 

Indeed Indeed, whatever keeps your bubble going ............ 

Edited March 11, 2016 by Brimsurfer

[Brimsurfer]

Also OP: Weren't you supposed to leave this thread and create a new one in reddit?

 

 

I never said I was gonna leave this thread, I maintain my stand......main story indeed reflects an anti-theism cliche, so I ain't going anywhere son, don't worry........

 

Edit: I love the gameplay but the main story conclusion put off in a most terrible way, no other RPG chopped my wings in such a manner and pushed me down blindfolded in a narrow and dark corridor with no windows and doors...... it was an absolute horror.....I was like WTF are these dialogue choices, this is not what my guy is meant to say, this is not my Watcher.........F' this ****.......

Edited March 11, 2016 by Brimsurfer

[meowbeast]

 

Also OP: Weren't you supposed to leave this thread and create a new one in reddit?

 

 

I never said I was gonna leave this thread, I maintain my stand......main story indeed reflects an anti-theism cliche, so I ain't going anywhere son, don't worry........

 

Edit: I love the gameplay but the main story conclusion put off in a most terrible way, no other RPG chopped my wings in such a manner and pushed me down blindfolded in a narrow and dark corridor with no windows and doors...... it was an absolute horror.....I was like WTF are these dialogue choices, this is not what my guy is meant to say, this is not my Watcher.........F' this ****.......

 

What about the psychological suffering caused by your egregious misuse of ellipses? What did they ever do to you, sir?

[Brimsurfer]

 

 

Also OP: Weren't you supposed to leave this thread and create a new one in reddit?

 

 

I never said I was gonna leave this thread, I maintain my stand......main story indeed reflects an anti-theism cliche, so I ain't going anywhere son, don't worry........

 

Edit: I love the gameplay but the main story conclusion put off in a most terrible way, no other RPG chopped my wings in such a manner and pushed me down blindfolded in a narrow and dark corridor with no windows and doors...... it was an absolute horror.....I was like WTF are these dialogue choices, this is not what my guy is meant to say, this is not my Watcher.........F' this ****.......

 

What about the psychological suffering caused by your egregious misuse of ellipses? What did they ever do to you, sir?

 

 

misuse of ellipses? nice one , thought it all by yourself? So I missed a couple of words while typing ....... if that causes you psychological torture, then I guess you need someone to take look at you.........

Edited March 11, 2016 by Brimsurfer

[house2fly]

 

 

Also OP: Weren't you supposed to leave this thread and create a new one in reddit?

 

I never said I was gonna leave this thread, I maintain my stand......main story indeed reflects an anti-theism cliche, so I ain't going anywhere son, don't worry........

 

Edit: I love the gameplay but the main story conclusion put off in a most terrible way, no other RPG chopped my wings in such a manner and pushed me down blindfolded in a narrow and dark corridor with no windows and doors...... it was an absolute horror.....I was like WTF are these dialogue choices, this is not what my guy is meant to say, this is not my Watcher.........F' this ****.......

Which dialogue options, specifically, are you referring to?

[house2fly]

For example, Thaos says that the gods give order and peace, and you have the option to say "teaching people there were no gods would have done the same thing". This is an example of a dialogue option which is atheist in content because it suggests your character believes there are no gods.

[Brimsurfer]

 

 

Also OP: Weren't you supposed to leave this thread and create a new one in reddit?

I never said I was gonna leave this thread, I maintain my stand......main story indeed reflects an anti-theism cliche, so I ain't going anywhere son, don't worry........

 

Edit: I love the gameplay but the main story conclusion put off in a most terrible way, no other RPG chopped my wings in such a manner and pushed me down blindfolded in a narrow and dark corridor with no windows and doors...... it was an absolute horror.....I was like WTF are these dialogue choices, this is not what my guy is meant to say, this is not my Watcher.........F' this ****.......

Which dialogue options, specifically, are you referring to?

 

I have already said it, I am not going to say it again to encourage you to keep asking me the same question over and over again..........if you are trying to drive me away by annoying me, its not going to work..... 

Edited March 11, 2016 by Brimsurfer

[Serpit]

For example, Thaos says that the gods give order and peace, and you have the option to say "teaching people there were no gods would have done the same thing". This is an example of a dialogue option which is atheist in content because it suggests your character believes there are no gods.

 

Which is one of several choices you can make to define your character's beliefs. You don't have to pick it - the possibility exists for YOU to take if you want to.

Edited March 11, 2016 by Serpit

[house2fly]

 

 

 

 

Also OP: Weren't you supposed to leave this thread and create a new one in reddit?

I never said I was gonna leave this thread, I maintain my stand......main story indeed reflects an anti-theism cliche, so I ain't going anywhere son, don't worry........

 

Edit: I love the gameplay but the main story conclusion put off in a most terrible way, no other RPG chopped my wings in such a manner and pushed me down blindfolded in a narrow and dark corridor with no windows and doors...... it was an absolute horror.....I was like WTF are these dialogue choices, this is not what my guy is meant to say, this is not my Watcher.........F' this ****.......

Which dialogue options, specifically, are you referring to?

I have already said it, I am not going to say it again to encourage you to keep asking me the same question over and over again..........if you are trying to drive me away by annoying me, its not going to work.....

looks like I win the argument, as you cannot produce an example.

[Parasol_Syndicate]

If you're going to make a whole thread about this, at least be prepared to repost your central point, or link to where you do. 

[Brimsurfer]

 

 

 

 

Also OP: Weren't you supposed to leave this thread and create a new one in reddit?

I never said I was gonna leave this thread, I maintain my stand......main story indeed reflects an anti-theism cliche, so I ain't going anywhere son, don't worry........

 

Edit: I love the gameplay but the main story conclusion put off in a most terrible way, no other RPG chopped my wings in such a manner and pushed me down blindfolded in a narrow and dark corridor with no windows and doors...... it was an absolute horror.....I was like WTF are these dialogue choices, this is not what my guy is meant to say, this is not my Watcher.........F' this ****.......

Which dialogue options, specifically, are you referring to?

I have already said it, I am not going to say it again to encourage you to keep asking me the same question over and over again..........if you are trying to drive me away by annoying me, its not going to work.....

looks like I win the argument, as you cannot produce an example.

 

Its already produced.......said it countless times, you don't want to acknowledge it, so be it....... I am not going to repeat myself over and over again to keep you entertained......you think you won the argument? So I guess won't be seeing you here again then......see ya...

 

I'll be right here keeping this topic going......

Edited March 11, 2016 by Brimsurfer

[tinysalamander]

I don't care what anyone is saying about this topic […]

 

And that is a part of the problem.

[Brimsurfer]

If you're going to make a whole thread about this, at least be prepared to repost your central point, or link to where you do. 

Said it countless times, I am talking about the whole dialogue theme of final act........and why and what objections I have about it, have been discussed in detail previously, I don't want to link previous posts in the same topic for someone who keeps asking the same question over and over again without acknowledging the answer...........there is no point.....

Edited March 11, 2016 by Brimsurfer

[Brimsurfer]

 

I don't care what anyone is saying about this topic […]

 

And that is a part of the problem.

 

The only problem is that you are quoting only a part of my post and trying to appear sensible with your one liner, which is meaningless otherwise..... and you are not the only one, that's another part of the problem......

Edited March 11, 2016 by Brimsurfer

[house2fly]

A good way to get your point across is to repeat the same vague mumbling point a billion times without providing any specific examples of what you're talking about because you know there are none.

[Baron Pampa]

@Brimsurfer
You haven't at all referred to my post about the game showing believable, coherent and likeable characters while dealing with question close to faith("How can I live and what should I do without knowing the answers?") seriously. The finale isn't really about faith, it's about hard truth vs. comfortable lies dillema. Do you think it's anti-theist propaganda because it lacks "unshakable faith" answer?

[falchen]

I would have liked an option amongs the lines of "I believe the gods are real but should be overthrown anyway", or just a way to dismiss it as unimportant. The reveal really didn't do anything for me, I just wanted to stop Wayden's legacy.

Edited March 11, 2016 by falchen

[house2fly]

I seriously don't remember any dialogue options where your character is shattered by the revelation, the only direct reaction I know of at all is that if you're a philosopher and say at the beginning you don't believe anything you get an "i knew it!" dialogue option when Iovara tells you.

[Tennisgolfboll]

 

 

Not sure what happened to my quote box...

 

"And you also show you know nothing about the bible. It never, not even once, contradicts itself. You have not read it and understood it at all."

 

Here's 492 to get you started

 

This site is fun too

Oh please. You show how little knowledge you have and how ignorant you are

 

At the very top of the list "was Abraham just because of faith or deeds?"

 

 

This is so incredibly basic christian knowledge that a little kid that had read just a tiny bit would know that there is absolutely no question to what the answer is.

 

Your list is complete garbage.

[Brimsurfer]

@Brimsurfer

You haven't at all referred to my post about the game showing believable, coherent and likeable characters while dealing with question close to faith("How can I live and what should I do without knowing the answers?") seriously. The finale isn't really about faith, it's about hard truth vs. comfortable lies dillema. Do you think it's anti-theist propaganda because it lacks "unshakable faith" answer?

I must have missed your post, sorry about that.....

 

I think its anti theist propaganda because it portrays anti theism as an uncontested and universal truth of the world and the game's final act's dialogue theme behaves in such a way that, you are given no choice but to conform to it.......

 

My quarrel is with the direction story took in the final act (which also formed the theme for the dialogues with Iovara and Thaos, I don't see any reason to copy and paste the whole interaction with Iovara and Thaos, we all played it, we know it)......... there were a million grand directions in which the tale could have gone but it was sadly reduced to the same old anti-theism cliche, where the story suggested that 'there are no real gods and people of the world are being fooled for centuries to believe in them and the people who are trying to enforce this belief in false gods, now of course they are liars and evil since the gods are false..... and its all an elaborate and twisted plan to give some kind of false direction and order to peoples' lives and it only caused war and strife..........'

 

When I first played through the final act, it right away pinned me and I started looking that why the story took that turn, elements of athi-theism were apparent to me and later I found out that there were indeed some atheist elements involved in the development of the game and even the lead designer has publicly admitted that he is an atheist as well.....this is no co-incidence, these guys let their personal real life dispositions get the better of them.....to me this disposition is misguided and I abhor the fact that the game doesn't allow anyone or anything to contest with its loaded truth or gives even a hint that Iovara's findings were false or there is even a shadow of doubt that her theory may be wrong even Thaos fails to deny it, he kept deflecting the question with nonsense about bringing direction and order to Eora.....

 

Whatever questions or scenarios game posed or dealt with, in the end it felt like they were all just cheap tools to arrive at a pre-conceived and pre-decided conclusion meant to confirm anti-theism as the universal and unshakeable truth of the world, without leaving any room to believe otherwise......

Edited March 11, 2016 by Brimsurfer

[Baron Pampa]

So in every work of fiction if anti theism is universal truth it's atheist propaganda? Are IE games politheistic propaganda? And JRR Tolkien works monotheistic propaganda? And so on...?

[Infinitron]

In one of Eder's epilogues it's said that his belief in Eothas was not weakened but strengthened by the revelation that Eothas was artificial, and this is presented as a good thing.

 

You're off your meds son

[house2fly]

even the lead designer has publicly admitted that he is an atheist as well.....

lmao "admitted". Yeah I'm not religious guys, my whole beef with this story isn't because my faith is so weak that any reference to atheism starts eroding the foundations of my sandcastle, it's just uh, bad storytelling