Lightly Armoured Monk Tank Viable?

[JerekKruger]

I'd like to play a Monk on my next playthrough and ideally I'd like to stay away from wearing the heavier armour types. I know that Monks in Pillars aren't supposed to be limited to Shaolin style warrior monks, but at the same time it's clear that they're not uninspired by that trope and I find it hard to shake the feeling that there is something wrong about a Monk wearing metal armour.

 

My question is: can a Monk wearing Leather Armour or lower still operate effectively as a tank/damage dealer, or will the lower DR make them too flimsy? This would be on hard difficulty by the way.

 

If the answer is yes, what sort of stat distribution would you recommend? Ideally I'd prefer to avoid any stats below 8, once again because I dislike it from an RP perspective. High Might and Constitution seem obvious choices but what else?

[AndreaColombo]

I haven't really tried one yet, but I think light-armored Monks are viable. Monks rely on taking wounds, after all, and a lower DR lets you accumulate them faster (and at level 11, if memory serves, you get Iron Wheel that grants you +1 DR per wound.)

 

Besides, even if you went for the Monk's Outfit, you could still upgrade it to Superb (DR 9) or even Legendary (DR 11) and add Second Skin (+2) and a bonus from Survival (+2 or +3), which imo is plenty enough unless you were soloing.

 

If I built a light-armored Monk (which I will, sooner or later), I would most certainly make them wear the Lavender Crown and Binding Rope and take Rooting Pain. This would passively hurt and disable enemies that hit you so you'd maintain an edge even when taking punishment.

Edited February 29, 2016 by AndreaColombo

[MountainTiger]

On hard, I found Zahua very survivable when wearing the Raiment of Wael's Eyes (DR 3 before enchanting, casts Mirrored Image on taking a crit). In the early going, you probably want something heavier, just because endurance pools are smaller, but robes are definitely viable in the mid to late game.

[Braven]

I think it would work fine. More wounds = more powers! You will certainly want maxed out CON. If you are the tank, you will benefit greatly from as much endurance regeneration as possible (paladin heals, veteran's recovery, moon godlike, etc). You can also consider maxing out your deflection, since armor doesn't matter if you simply dodge everything and heavy armor can sometimes be overkill for glancing blows. Another option is investing in disabling abilities that stun or prone your enemies. They can't hit you if they are lying on the ground. If you go that route, I recommend high Intelligence so the stun durations lasts longer.

 

Also, keep in mind that high might is not always required. High might is best if you rely on self healing and using your fists (they have high base damage, which is great paired with Might) and spamming torments reach. Also, monks have less passive damage modifiers, so might is better for them those with many, like melee rogues or ciphers, due to the diminishing returns of damage additives.

 

If you are focusing on using the monks disabling abilities and playing a crowd-control style that stuns and knock down enemies, Intelligence and Perception maxed are much better than might because they both increase debuff durations (perception for criticals which increase durations). If that is your style, you can keep might and resolve low.

 

For damage calculations, might matters most at the start of the game. After your weapons or fists are fully upgraded, the benefits of might are greatly reduced since it is now only a small slice of the bigger damage pie. Some people suggest retraining might to a different stat late game, if you are not morally opposed to abusing retrain. Also, I recall that torments reach has some weird damage math (or at least used to) so this General rule might not apply if you rely on that ability.

Edited February 29, 2016 by Braven

[Boeroer]

Once you can take Iron Wheel you need no thicker armor than robes. The mechanic is great: If you don't have wounds you will get them fast (low DR) - but while you accumulae wounds your DR will get higher (up to +10). It's great!

 

You can also compensate the lack of thick armor with high CON and healing like Silver Tide. And also higher deflection. Higher deflection means more grazes which still help with the wound gain but don't knock you over so fast.

 

The Lavender Wreath AndreaColombo suggested is very nice for a monk (or anybody else who wants to get hit). It retaliates with Sickened so to say. The fact that the monk can also cause Weakened with Enervating Blows leads to hefty debuffs that you apply passively. That's really nice. And anyway that Lavender Wreath only looks good if you're wearing robes or monk's outfit.

 

As I said in another thread: High MIG + Veteran's Recovery + regenerating item + Belt of Bountiful Healing + Survival Bonus: Healing Multiplier leads to a nice effect.

 

And if you still fell like going down too much you can always put on Shod-in-Faith. 

Edited February 29, 2016 by Boeroer

[JerekKruger]

Okay cool, so this should be able to work.

 

I completely forgot about the Ascetic Monk build posted earlier, but I guess much of the same advice applies from that to any lightly armoured Monk. Based on that, how does:

 

Mig 16

Con 18

Dex 10

Per 16

Int 8

Res 10

 

Sound as a stat spread?

[Braven]

That looks good for a monk, if you want to focus more on damage dealing abilities and endurance regeneration. However, I would consider lowering Perception, unless you want that for Role playing reasons, or more conversation options. Perception is best for low accuracy classes (monks have naturally high accuracy) or if you want to use special weapons that benefit more from critical hits or that have a particularly high interrupt rating. If you want to use your fists, I think it would be better placed in Might or dex. I think fists have the lowest interrupt rating, like other small, fast weapons.

Edited February 29, 2016 by Braven

[Boeroer]

If you want to dual wield and use Swift Strikes then DEX 10 is ok. But I think I would do like 15/15/15/15 for the first four stats. But I doubt it will matter after the first few levels.

[Braven]

I agree about the Dex. Personally, I never go less than 15 because it is just so useful for almost every build. It helps to swallow that clutch healing potion in time, cast scrolls quickly, knock an enemy down before a killing blow is landed on your Mage.... Lots of uses besides just being a great damage booster.

 

The only time I can see tanking dex for a melee class, or even keeping it low, is a 0 recovery time build (though it is still useful for them, just not as much, and won't come together until a ways in the game) and party-based builds where your role is to be a pure meat shield that does no damage and stands in doorways, in which case you probably also tank Perception. There is also the theory that your most important actions are wound abilities and as long as your dex keeps up with your wounds, you get diminishing returns after that. Same applies to casters with limited per rest abilities.

Edited February 29, 2016 by Braven

[Boeroer]

Well chanter tanks can do very well with 3 DEX as long as you give them good PER (reflex will be bad otherwise).

[Braven]

Couldn't the chanter just hold a large shield? Fully enchanted with the sword and shield talent, it provides something like 38 reflex. Since they are a tank, they probably want a shield anyways. Accuracy would be terrible, but with 3 dex, who cares. You are never going to deal much damage anyways. Also, the worst afflictions target FORT and WILL, so I would rather have those higher.

Edited February 29, 2016 by Braven

[Boeroer]

That's why 3 DEX and good PER are not a problem. With the higher PER you can compensate the -8 ACC from large shields while you get lots of reflex and deflection out of it. So basically you have better results if you have 18 PER and a large shield than 14 PER and a medium shield. But that is even better than 10 PER and a small shield. That's because you profit two times from the shield's deflection value: it raises deflection AND reflex.

Edited February 29, 2016 by Boeroer

[Braven]

Admittingly, I am a min-maxer, but the chanters role is just to survive as long as possible since their powers are benefit from longer combat durations and the best ones don't use accuracy at all (the creature summoning spells). With 3 dex and plate armor, you will be lucky to get 2 swings of your weak, one handed sword. I don't think that is worth 10 stat points improving.

Edited February 29, 2016 by Braven

[Boeroer]

What do you mean? PER? It's needed for the damaging chants (Come, Sweet Winds of Death, The Dragon Thrashed) as well as for all offensive invocations. Of course you don't need it if you only want to use summons and buffs. But if you drop DEX and PER your reflex will be abysmal no matter which shield you use.

 

By the way the "White Worms" invocation is one of the most powerful spells if used with cleverness: lure all enemies of a map to one choke point and kill them there (don't reload because all the dead bodies will be gone). Then, when you face encounters that are really tough on that map, retreat to the pile of bodies and use that invocation. It works over and over again on the same bodies. I used it to clear Crägholt Bluffs with ease. Commander Beralrion, that poor lass... died from 30 explosions that came out of his former comrades.

 

Like this:

Edited February 29, 2016 by Boeroer

[Ymarsakar]

Wormageddon. 

[Braven]

I didn't even think about those AOE chants. I will concede to you victory on the matter. PER is good for chanters. At least those who don't just use defensive chants and summons.

 

I suppose I should stop hijacking the monk topic now with chanter talk.

Edited February 29, 2016 by Braven

[JerekKruger]

No worries on the thread tangent, I think I've got an answer to my question now. I'm just trying to figure out the fine details now.

[Braven]

I very much agree with and highly recommend the endurance regeneration items. The best one can be bought from a store so it is easy to obtain (shod in faith). As a bonus, I think it fits the monk aesthetics pretty well, since they are traditionally more spiritual in nature. As long as your deflection isn't super high, those boots are absolutely amazing (though the sound effect they generate can be kind of annoying)

 

One thing I am not sure about is whether Intelligence affects how long wounds last. The one thing that really bummed me out about Monk when I tried one is that the wounds expire (disappear) pretty quickly if you don't use them. At least they did when I last played monk a while back... not sure if that changed. Granted, I was playing a super defensive solo monk with low intelligence, so battles lasted a really long time. It might not be a problem with a more aggressive monk.

 

I mention this because Iron Will and Iron wheel work best with 10 wounds. I also don't know which wound expires first. Is it the first one gained? Do you always use the "oldest" wound? Is that even tracked? I have no idea and it isn't explained in the game at all.

Edited February 29, 2016 by Braven

[Ymarsakar]

I very much agree with and highly recommend the endurance regeneration items. The best one can be bought from a store so it is easy to obtain (shod in faith). As a bonus, I think it fits the monk aesthetics pretty well, since they are traditionally more spiritual in nature. As long as your deflection isn't super high, those boots are absolutely amazing (though the sound effect they generate can be kind of annoying)

 

One thing I am not sure about is whether Intelligence affects how long wounds last. The one thing that really bummed me out about Monk when I tried one is that the wounds expire (disappear) pretty quickly if you don't use them. At least they did when I last played monk a while back... not sure if that changed. Granted, I was playing a super defensive solo monk with low intelligence, so battles lasted a really long time. It might not be a problem with a more aggressive monk.

 

I mention this because Iron Will and Iron wheel work best with 10 wounds. I also don't know which wound expires first. Is it the first one gained? Do you always use the "oldest" wound? Is that even tracked? I have no idea and it isn't explained in the game at all.

 

You should have heard the boots back when they didn't have per encounter limits on when it procs. It was like water metal.

[Boeroer]

Shod-in-Rave.

[Ymarsakar]

Shod-in-Rave.

 

Hah, indeed.

 

Braven, if you are interested enough, you can test out how the wounds tick down in a tavern, by constantly aggroing enemies. Then make sure only your own party can damage your monk. Sequence the attacks so you get 2 wounds, then 1 wound, and experiment.

 

Ever since Josh's new class, Monk, got changed from wound doing damaging after tick down to no damage, it's gotten a lot easier to use and micro. But that means I don't have much playtime with them.

Edited March 1, 2016 by Ymarsakar

[Braven]

I am currently focused on my fighter character build, but I do want to experiment with monk after And see exactly what influences wound duration. Maybe monk version of glass tsunami since they benefit even more from endurance regeneration.

[Ymarsakar]

I am currently focused on my fighter character build, but I do want to experiment with monk after And see exactly what influences wound duration. Maybe monk version of glass tsunami since they benefit even more from endurance regeneration.

 

Why not buy a custom NPC from a tavern, test it out after leveling it up, and then reloading?

[Reent]

you dont generate new wounds when you have 10 wounds, so you dont trigger Rooting Pain when you have 10 Wounds and the timer isnt reset.

The duration is dependend on your int (so low int=spam them away, high int... reset them so they dont fall off after time)

 

But i dont know if the oldest wound is used first if you use wounds, i think so... but i didnt test it.

[Braven]

 

 

I am currently focused on my fighter character build, but I do want to experiment with monk after And see exactly what influences wound duration. Maybe monk version of glass tsunami since they benefit even more from endurance regeneration.

Why not buy a custom NPC from a tavern, test it out after leveling it up, and then reloading?

It is not easy to measure duration precisely because the game doesn't show any sort of wound expiration timer like every other ability in the game. It would be something like a frame by frame analysis. Also, I give good odds that there are bugs a plenty that will alter those times in unexpected ways under certain circumstances. For example, maybe spelltongue will extend wound duration indefinately. Edited March 1, 2016 by Braven