Separate questions about Thaos, Eothas & the gods

[Frederick]

Hello. I beat the game once, and I'm wondering these things. Anyone can help with answers or theories?

 

Thaos

As I understand it, Thaos dies each life and is reborn with his memories intact; but does that mean he is always reborn in the same body? How does that work? In all visions of him, he looks the same.

Also, there's an option when you kill him where you can let him keep his memories... Isn't that the same as having done nothing? Other than having stopped his plan, I mean. He's going to come back, isn't he?

 

Eothas

Did Eothas really want to stop the whole plan from the beginning? That's what I understand; but I didn't find much confirmation. Since the gods aren't really gods, could Eothas have died by something so mortal as a bomb? Wouldn't that only kill the vessel? Why isn't Eothas' symbol in the place where you talk to all the gods? Is that confirmation of his death?

 

The gods

I see Eora is somehow atheist and not atheist at the same time. xD I didn't see that coming! How could the Engwithans create gods? What are they made of? Souls? Do the gods' powers have reach over all the world? How did every civilization know about them? Does every civilization know about them or are they just known in the Dyrwood?

 

I don't know if these questions aren't supposed to have an answer, or I just simply didn't get all the information (or didn't pay attention), so I ask for any explanation or theory anyone has. I haven't played the White March expansion, yet; so if there's any more information about this in there, just say so and don't spoil it, please.

[PrimeJunta]

(1) It's that glorious beard mang. As long as he's born a white male with reasonable testosterone production, he can get the look close enough to work. And you'll still have foiled his and Woedica's plot even if you let him come back with his memories intact.

 

(2) Yeah that's what I gathered too. A lot of the behind-the-scenes divine plotting was left quite obscure though, I'm kinda hoping they'll build on it in an eventual Pillars 2. The Godhammer wasn't any old bomb, it was built under the direction of Magran and presumably with some of her essence. Durance explains all about it, how it doesn't just destroy his body but also his soul.

 

(3) Yeah Eora is atheist and not-atheist. The Engwithans created the gods with all those machines scattered around Dyrwood. They harvested souls from volunteers (or "volunteers"), stored them, then did some alchemy with them to build the gods out of them. Perhaps they were converted to raw essence first, or perhaps they were somehow amalgamated so that the contributors live on as the gods in some sense.

 

A lot of the Watcher's past lives revolve around the time Thaos was sending missionaries everywhere to spread the word about the gods, so yeah every civilization does know about them. There's even a bunch of information about what they're called in different places.

[Frederick]

Thanks for the replies! Here are some observations:

 

1 - In that regard, why is he always born a white male with reasonable testosterone production? Was he never born as another kith? Or even a different, non-kith species? How is this happening? Is Woedica doing it or is it the work of some Engwithan magic/science?

 

2 - You are right. In my second playthrough, Durance just explained that about the Godhammer and I forgot by the time I asked. Magran doesn't seem to miss Eothas, when you talk to her, though. So much for their respect for balance. What was her reasoning, again?

 

3 - As I have no more information on the matter... Sounds legit!

[AndreaColombo]

1) Technically we do not know for sure that Thaos was never reborn as another kith. We know what he looks like now, and we know what he looked like when our past incarnation knew him, but we know nothing of his incarnations in-between. It is safe to assume he's always a white male with a beard because that's what he looks like in the two incarnations that we see, but it might as well be coincidence in absence of any conclusive evidence. That said, a case could be made for Woedica's preserving his appearance so that Leaden Key acolytes would always recognize him (e.g. if he dies and comes back the next day a female dwarf with fiery hair, most Leaden Key members would not recognize her as Thaos and would not listen/follow.)

 

2) The game strongly implies that Waidwen was indeed an incarnation of Eothas, and that the Godhammer really blew him up for good. That he never made himself heard again after the event is suspicious, though not conclusive by itself (even if Waidwen had not been Eothas, people still blew him up with the intention of killing Eothas; if people tried to kill me, I too wouldn't be so willing to speak with them afterward.) However, the missing symbol in Teir Evron and the fact that all gods with whom you speak seem to simply assume Eothas is in fact dead do, in my opinion, provide strong support for the Waidwen = Eothas theory. And this is without taking into consideration your vision as Woden, where Waidwen's face is luminous. Another thing to consider is that back during the Saint's War, the other gods likely knew whether Waidwen was really Eothas—and I honestly doubt Magran would have troubled herself with the creation of the Godhammer to blow up a redneck charlatan from Raedceras. That she did what she did is another strong implication that Waidwen was indeed Eothas.

Edited January 12, 2016 by AndreaColombo

[Parasol_Syndicate]

Thaos is reborn in his current form because Woedica cheats, and knows the system well enough to. 
Recall that his voice and face do not change across your varied memories.

[tinysalamander]

Wasn't it said that he doesn't keep his memories? They come to him later (with Woedica's help, I suppose). At least that's how I remembered it.

[Parasol_Syndicate]

Yes, that's probably the case. 

What I was saying was more along the lines of he comes back with the same face, voice, and build. 

 

Which may be somewhat of a shock to some of his parental units...

[Frederick]

1 - Woedica cheating could be the reason. But it's true we don't know the in-between forms, either. Still, Iovara knows him as "Thaos", too. Why does he always have the same name? I'd say that, remembering past lives, means he decides himself to use the same name every time. Also, Lady Webb knows him from years ago. I guess it's the same incarnation; but I don't remember if she recalls him as a young man, because Thaos is always an old man with a white beard.

Another thing: if Woedica is the one granting Thaos his memory, wouldn't the option of the Watcher making Thaos forget, be useless, as Woedica can just undo that? She wouldn't let such an obstacle ruin the plan. Which makes the option seem useless. The only one I chose, based on my character's personality, was to destroy his soul. I don't see how any other option can prevent him from coming back.

 

2 - Very good reasons. Both Woden's vision and Magran's involvement. Especially the latter. I think we need a prequel set in Readceras... Also, Edér's ending is kind of sad, where he becomes a sort of priest of Eothas, even though he knows Eothas is dead, and wasn't a real god, anyway. He's just as stubborn as Thaos.

 

I just thought of a new doubt:

 

Question #4: Why, exactly does the Watcher un-awaken after the fight with Thaos? Was knowing his past life what did it? If so, did the Watcher forget all that he learned during the whole adventure regarding past lives? OR does the Watcher remain awake, just without the bad side effects? Did the Watcher lose the ability to see the souls?

[AndreaColombo]

About 4) my understanding is that you remain a watcher but the visions and voices from your past incarnation cease and you no longer risk going mad Maerwald-style. It is impossible to unawaken, but it is possible to come to terms with whatever causes your past incarnation distress, which is what you do when you learn the truth from Thaos and finally confront him.

[Frederick]

Wasn't it said that he doesn't keep his memories? They come to him later (with Woedica's help, I suppose). At least that's how I remembered it.

Ah, I think you are right! I don't remember who says that, but I remember it (Lady Webb?).

 

That makes sense. I no longer need to think about how a 6 year old Thaos deals with all that knowledge (just picture a toddler with an awesome white beard).

[tinysalamander]

Another thing: if Woedica is the one granting Thaos his memory, wouldn't the option of the Watcher making Thaos forget, be useless, as Woedica can just undo that? She wouldn't let such an obstacle ruin the plan. Which makes the option seem useless. The only one I chose, based on my character's personality, was to destroy his soul. I don't see how any other option can prevent him from coming back.

 

Who knows, maybe. I certainly thought that, so I've kept his memories in hope that'll give him more time to think about it before Woedica claims him again. That and I would want to lose memories either. And I think I said I wouldn't destroy him to those 2 spirits(?) who asked what I'd do before, so I didn't feel like broking that either.

 

In the end all of this might not work anyway but I was a priestess of Eothas, so I thought that was both a right choice and a way to show him that there is a different side to kith

[FlintlockJazz]

The gods have control over their followers' reincarnation, at least to the level that if you do well they will ensure you reincarnate well, whereas those who don't follow a god enter a 'lottery of souls' and are pretty much left to chance.  Ergo, Woedica probably ensures that Thaos reincarnates into a form that is reasonably close to his preferred form.  Either that, or he uses magic of some sort to change his form to that which he is most comfortable with. 

 

http://pillarsofeternity.gamepedia.com/Soul

[Frederick]

Those replies back the idea that it's Woedica doing that service for Thaos. Sounds plausible! But then, what's the purpose of erasing his memories when you kill him if Woedica can just give them back? That ending seems to do nothing. But I haven't chosen it, yet. So I don't really know.

 

 

About Eothas

Here's an argument for his continued existence! You can be a priest of Eothas. Priests have the Holy Radiance skill that has a stronger or weaker effect depending on how the priest respects the god's wishes. Doesn't that mean that Eothas is alive, granting the priest his bonuses or penalties?

 

I'm using the mechanics of the game, but I think it can be a solid explanation to confirm Eothas is still alive. I mean, why would Obsidian let you play as a priest devouted to him, of all gods? You can't be a priest of Hylea or Abydon, for example. With so many gods to choose, why him? Anyone refute this, if it's wrong, because otherwise I have convinced myself!

[AndreaColombo]

I think it is said in the game that Hylea took over Eothasian Priests and is granting them spells ever since the Godhammer detonated.

[FlintlockJazz]

Those replies back the idea that it's Woedica doing that service for Thaos. Sounds plausible! But then, what's the purpose of erasing his memories when you kill him if Woedica can just give them back? That ending seems to do nothing. But I haven't chosen it, yet. So I don't really know.

Possibly you are erasing the memories from the very soul?  While each person usually only remembers their current lives Awakenings show that the memories are still there in their soul waiting to be triggered by the right stimuli.  I'm guess you erased the memories in the soul, essentially reformatting the hard drive of his soul, so they are no longer there to be triggered by Woedica.

 

I think it is said in the game that Hylea took over Eothasian Priests and is granting them spells ever since the Godhammer detonated.

 

I can't access the Wiki at the moment, but I think there is a belief that the gods don't actually supply the spells themselves, that it is the belief of the priest in their god that actually gives them the power.  Magran doesn't even recognise Durance as Durance, she doesn't seem to acknowledge his existence, yet he keeps on being able to cast magic.  He may think it comes from Magran but that isn't necessarily the case, it is the belief in the principles of their god and their belief that they are adhering to those principles that power the disciple. 

 

And while I wrote that I managed to access the wiki:

 

http://pillarsofeternity.gamepedia.com/Priest

 

 

 

Such men and women have found a divine link to their chosen deity, but their abilities stem solely from within.

 

Reputations affect their Holy Radiance because it is their faith in their god that powers it, so if they haven't been sticking to the teachings then the doubt in their minds over their own actions interferes with their power.

[Frederick]

I think it is said in the game that Hylea took over Eothasian Priests and is granting them spells ever since the Godhammer detonated.

Hylea's ****! Where does it say that?

 

If the power comes from the priest himself, then Eora was even more atheist that I thought! xD Kudos to Obsidian for daring to make such a setting. The strongest argument I see presented is Durance. Magran doesn't even talk to him in the room with the gods, does she? I guess it makes sense also because a paladin works in a similar way, but there's no god involved in his bonuses or penalties. Cool! OK! So, Eothas is not alive. ._.

 

As for Thaos, erasing his memories from the soul itself makes sense. Thanks! I guess that's what it is!

[tinysalamander]

So, Eothas is not alive. ._.

 

More like Eothas is Schrödinger's cat With his portfolio you can't really be sure.

[Sabotin]

What if Eothas is actually Woedica? The queen got exiled and depowered by Magran, but the god of rebirth was born from it. Since the plan to conquer the Dyrwood didn't work, the Leaden Key had to use a different plan to gather the souls.

[AndreaColombo]

 

I think it is said in the game that Hylea took over Eothasian Priests and is granting them spells ever since the Godhammer detonated.

Hylea's ****! Where does it say that?

 

If the power comes from the priest himself, then Eora was even more atheist that I thought! xD Kudos to Obsidian for daring to make such a setting. The strongest argument I see presented is Durance. Magran doesn't even talk to him in the room with the gods, does she? I guess it makes sense also because a paladin works in a similar way, but there's no god involved in his bonuses or penalties. Cool! OK! So, Eothas is not alive. ._.

 

I cannot recall where exactly it is said, and it is actually quite possible that mine was but a confused memory of the following passage from the PoE lore book:

 

"Before the destruction of Saint Waidwen at Godhammer Citadel, Hylea was an ally and a friend of Eothas, since both gods had a hand in birth and new beginnings. Her priesthood mourns his disappearance on the anniversary of Saint Waidwen's "death" and commissions plays and poems in his honor. They are also rumored to have accepted a number of Eothasian clergy into their own ranks, in an effort to save them from the vengeful followers of Magran."

 

However, FlintlockJazz is correct in asserting that Priests do not, in fact, receive their spells and powers from the gods. In fact, it states so at character creation:

 

"While all priests dedicated themselves to specific gods, priests' power is actually derived from their personal beliefs."

 

Which means Eothasian priests can still be able to cast spells even if Eothas is, in fact, dead.

 

 

Magran doesn't even recognise Durance as Durance, she doesn't seem to acknowledge his existence, yet he keeps on being able to cast magic.  He may think it comes from Magran but that isn't necessarily the case, it is the belief in the principles of their god and their belief that they are adhering to those principles that power the disciple. 

 

This is a different matter, however.

 

Priests' power derives from their beliefs, but Durance's devotion lies in Magran and not in any other god. Which god you follow shapes your power in a way or another, and this is represented in-game by the ability of all Priests to select a deity-specific talent at level up. So Durance's power comes from his faith in Magran specifically.

 

However, it is also said in Durance's personal quest that his soul was somehow altered/shaded by the Godhammer's detonation, which is why Magran cannot recognize him as Durance. Had she been able to do so, she would have "accidentally" killed him shortly after the bomb went off (by virtue of the bond that ties priests to the gods they serve, which enables the gods to always find their followers and communicate with them.) Durance could certainly speak up, but he knows better than to bring sure fiery death upon himself Normally, gods can recognize their clergy from their souls.

Edited January 13, 2016 by AndreaColombo

[Frederick]

What if Eothas is actually Woedica? The queen got exiled and depowered by Magran, but the god of rebirth was born from it. Since the plan to conquer the Dyrwood didn't work, the Leaden Key had to use a different plan to gather the souls.

That's crazy! I'm not saying I don't think it can be true; but it needs polish!

 

As for the priests, I guess this means that, in Engwithan times, before the gods were created, when people believed in false gods, they could have had priests who were devoted to those non-existent gods and still get power like present priests can! Does that mean that, basically, all priests are deluded people with super powers? xD

[Parasol_Syndicate]

However, it is also said in Durance's personal quest that his soul was somehow altered/shaded by the Godhammer's detonation, which is why Magran cannot recognize him as Durance. Had she been able to do so, she would have "accidentally" killed him shortly after the bomb went off (by virtue of the bond that ties priests to the gods they serve, which enables the gods to always find their followers and communicate with them.) Durance could certainly speak up, but he knows better than to bring sure fiery death upon himself Normally, gods can recognize their clergy from their souls.

 

At the start of the game, Durance only knows that he's been spurned, not why. He's certainly not caring a bit for his own self-preservation. 

He's been "speaking up" for years, which is from whence the 'fiery whore' bit stems from. 

 

We are left to question whether 1) he is forever out of reach of his diety or 2) Magran approves of his soul being conflicted.

Edited January 13, 2016 by Parasol_Syndicate

[AndreaColombo]

At the start of the game, Durance only knows that he's been spurned, not why. He's certainly not caring a bit for his own self-preservation.

 

Indeed, but I was referring specifically to when you talk to Magran in Teir Evron. Durance does nothing to attract Magran's attention when she fails to recognize him—and with good reason.

[Eisenheinrich]

 

What if Eothas is actually Woedica? The queen got exiled and depowered by Magran, but the god of rebirth was born from it. Since the plan to conquer the Dyrwood didn't work, the Leaden Key had to use a different plan to gather the souls.

That's crazy! I'm not saying I don't think it can be true; but it needs polish!

 

As for the priests, I guess this means that, in Engwithan times, before the gods were created, when people believed in false gods, they could have had priests who were devoted to those non-existent gods and still get power like present priests can! Does that mean that, basically, all priests are deluded people with super powers? xD

 

 

So, there are souls, magic and reincarnation before the Engwithians made their gods the known pantheon. So, there has to be a divine power somehow in Eora.

Edited January 13, 2016 by Eisenheinrich

[Frederick]

 

So, there are souls, magic and reincarnation before the Engwithians made their gods the known pantheon. So, there has to be a divine power somehow in Eora.

 

 But those don't necessarily mean that gods must exist. Just like we can't try to explain zombies in zombie movies without the movies falling apart after the realisation that zombies are not possible, it can't be discussed why there is magic in Eora without reaching the conclusion that magic isn't possible either.

 

Accepting that those things can exist in a fantasy setting, souls, magic and reincarnation can be just part of the physical laws that govern the universe of Eora. Without the need for intervention by a divine power. :|

 

There's also the argument that the Engwithans found there were no gods. They could be wrong, of course; but the game gives reason to believe Iovara's and Thaos' (tacit) acknowledgement that the Engwithans were right, and thus, had to create the gods themselves lest the world fall into chaos.

[FlintlockJazz]

There is an important thing to consider when discussing the gods: even if they were created, how does that stop them from being gods?  They may lie about their origin story, but they also still have "phenomenal cosmic powers!"