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So I decided to take a huge break and wait for white march to come out, now that it's out and the dust seems to have settled, I'm ready to start the adventure anew.  What would you gentlemen say would be the current tiers of the classes?  Are chanters still crap?  Wizards/Druids still power houses?  Warriors/Paladins still only good for being punched in the face?  If any of these facts changed, what/how did they? Please, Teach me senpais.

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Chanters never were crap, they are the greatest "lazy" class, no micromanagement needed and still very powerful. (The new AI system fits tem very well)

Wizards druids got stronger and wizards are still the strongest class ingame.

Fighters and paladins are better for tanking, yes they lack AoE damage, only the paladin has a new level 13 ability which is great for that, but 13 is quite late.

 

If you want a quick rundown on any class, just factor in 2 facts:

How does th class benefit from more accuracy(perception) and the new crossclass talents:

What new level 13 abilities did they get.

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(1) Chanters are kinda boring and they have a long relatively flat stretch between about level 5 and about level 9. Not crap though. They will get some love in version 3.0.0 due out with WM2.

 

(2) Wizards and druids are still powerhouses, yes, very much so.

 

(3) Paladins are an incredibly versatile class that can be built lots of ways. It's my favourite class ATM actually. There are several radically different builds right on this forum, from Boeroer's Dull Runner (fast-moving striker) to Torm51's Darcozzi Forward Observer and my variant of it, the Darcozzi Commendatore. What's more, paladins give your entire party more tactical options.

 

(4) If you build them that way, fighters are serious damage-dealers. My current party is paladin + chanter + 4 x fighter. It's very enjoyable to play as they can both dish it out and take it. Not as much absolute damage potential as with rogues or rangers, but they need a lot less babying too.

 

I don't know that any of these have changed much actually. They always were more or less like this. The biggest changes have been with enemy AI (especially ability use and targeting) and resistances/immunities. Simplistic tank-and-spank doesn't really work anymore as the AI will just ignore your tank and go for your squishies, so you have to vary things more. 

Edited by PrimeJunta

I have a project. It's a tabletop RPG. It's free. It's a work in progress. Find it here: www.brikoleur.com

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(4) If you build them that way, fighters are serious damage-dealers. My current party is paladin + chanter + 4 x fighter. It's very enjoyable to play as they can both dish it out and take it. Not as much absolute damage potential as with rogues or rangers, but they need a lot less babying too.

 

I don't know that any of these have changed much actually. They always were more or less like this. The biggest changes have been with enemy AI (especially ability use and targeting) and resistances/immunities. Simplistic tank-and-spank doesn't really work anymore as the AI will just ignore your tank and go for your squishies, so you have to vary things more. 

So you say, they do less damage, than rogues and rangers, but rogues and rangers already do less damage than spell casters. :)

Also you say, they need less babysitting, but called chanters boring before that.^^

Chanters essentially require the same effort and are as "interesting" as fighters but have way more versatility.

As to enemy AI, I sadly can't confirm it has gotten much better.

Sometimes the AI does stuff it wouldn't have done before in a positive way, but very often it's even worse than before or at least unchanged.

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So you say, they do less damage, than rogues and rangers, but rogues and rangers already do less damage than spell casters. :)

Also you say, they need less babysitting, but called chanters boring before that.^^

Chanters essentially require the same effort and are as "interesting" as fighters but have way more versatility.

As to enemy AI, I sadly can't confirm it has gotten much better.

Sometimes the AI does stuff it wouldn't have done before in a positive way, but very often it's even worse than before or at least unchanged.

 

In my parties, casters are rarely at the top of the damage stats list.

 

I find chanters boring for a number of reasons: their chant and invocation repertoire is extremely limited, they have barely any class-specific talents, they're kind of average at everything, and . Fighters OTOH can be built several ways and can switch between a number of highly effective tactics. Playing a chanter is rote: he's hanging there with the rest of the gang not being very effective, and when the counter goes "bleep" I fire off an invocation. Usually the same invocation every time. Or at best there are like, two good options. It's dull, rote, and repetitive.

 

As to the AI, I honestly don't see how you can describe it that way. In version 1, the AI used active abilities a lot less, cast spells a lot less, almost always targeted your  closest toon, and almost never broke engagement. You could play the entire game by building a tanky fighter with lots of engagement capability, marching him to the front, and having the beasties fruitlessly hammer him while you wrecked them with your damagers.

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So you say, they do less damage, than rogues and rangers, but rogues and rangers already do less damage than spell casters. :)

Also you say, they need less babysitting, but called chanters boring before that.^^

Chanters essentially require the same effort and are as "interesting" as fighters but have way more versatility.

As to enemy AI, I sadly can't confirm it has gotten much better.

Sometimes the AI does stuff it wouldn't have done before in a positive way, but very often it's even worse than before or at least unchanged.

 

In my parties, casters are rarely at the top of the damage stats list.

 

I find chanters boring for a number of reasons: their chant and invocation repertoire is extremely limited, they have barely any class-specific talents, they're kind of average at everything, and . Fighters OTOH can be built several ways and can switch between a number of highly effective tactics. Playing a chanter is rote: he's hanging there with the rest of the gang not being very effective, and when the counter goes "bleep" I fire off an invocation. Usually the same invocation every time. Or at best there are like, two good options. It's dull, rote, and repetitive.

 

As to the AI, I honestly don't see how you can describe it that way. In version 1, the AI used active abilities a lot less, cast spells a lot less, almost always targeted your  closest toon, and almost never broke engagement. You could play the entire game by building a tanky fighter with lots of engagement capability, marching him to the front, and having the beasties fruitlessly hammer him while you wrecked them with your damagers.

 

But the fighters don't even have invocations or chants, you activate your per encounter abilities (mostly at the satrt of the fight) maybe some per rest abilities and auto attack all the way.^^

Casters always were my top damagers especially ciphers who I played a lot, most notably in my three chicks party which is on YT, I did so much damage alone from Ecto Echo and it got really insane once I had Amplified Wave.

How can any fighter compete with a 10m AoE that does 100 dmg per hit and knocks everybody prone? :D

 

As to the Ai, what saddened me most is how pathing destroys anything casters do, even tho they are not limited by it in any way.

If you look at theReadric fight, for example, the priest heals per AoE HoT if he is next to the damaged ally.

If you use door cheese and the priest is say in the 3rd row towards your char/party (for me it was solo) he doesn't heal at all and especially not use his AoE HoT which he EASILY could.

On top of that super often it happened to me, that if I attacked alrger groups of enemies it randomly happened, that one or two melees would totally ignore me while I run around and gib squishies.

The melees would have a little sword above their head, which tells me they are trying to attack me.

Sadly they stand in place, not blocked by environment or any other obstacles.

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Raven, that is certainly one way to play a Fighter, and quite effective tbh, but they can be very versatile. I personally love fighters. Right now I'm working on the beginning of a playthrough based on Boerer's Engineer build. It'll have multiple weapons to use, a few nice abilities, and the ability to tank. All depends on what you build them for.

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But the fighters don't even have invocations or chants, you activate your per encounter abilities (mostly at the satrt of the fight) maybe some per rest abilities and auto attack all the way.^^

We must play in pretty different styles.

 

It's true that the fighter can't perform many actions that, say, a chanter couldn't. The difference is that a fighter is good at performing those actions. Want him to stand his ground? He bloody well will. Want him to hit hard? He will. Want a group of them to disengage, mob a single enemy, and beat him to a pulp? They will.

 

A typical Rauatai Bonebreakers encounter includes stuff like this:

 

1. Sneak into position. Select ranged weapon set.

2. Fire!

3. Select melee set: swords up front, pikes in the back.

4. Rush a high-value-target.

5. When getting pressed, pull back and regroup.

6. Repeat step 4.

7. Enemy about to fire off a spell or nasty ability: Knockdown!

8. Pull back to a choke point, have front line switch to shield + warhammer, second line: pikes or arbalests. Grind them down.

 

And that's just one style of encounter. There are others which play in even different ways.

 

This is way more dynamic than playing with chanters. I mean sure, you can perform all those actions with a chanter, but he won't be able to hold the line, clobber down the target, or interrupt the caster. With a chanter, it's basically

 

1. Select chant

2. Wait for phrase count to fill up

3. Fire off your most powerful invocation

 

Whatever else you do is mostly flavour, as it won't make much difference. I mean, I have Kana in the second row switching weapons with the rest of 'em, I've given him all the best defensive items so he won't bleed to death, and he hangs in there fine. When his phrase counter fills up, he can even turn around an encounter. It's just very rote and repetitive.

 

Bottom line, I really like fighters. They change the whole feel of the game from rock-paper-scissors with buffs and debuffs to movement, targeting, and positioning. I wouldn't always want to play this way, mind, but I very much appreciate the possibility. And, since chanters can't really time their abilities, you can't really do the rock-paper-scissors thing with them either, unlike with the other casters.

 

At the very least, please raise the phrase counter cap so they can store up a couple of invocations in an encounter that goes on longer.

Edited by PrimeJunta
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So with the incoming update, should I just go ahead and hold out fort he expansion before playing? I generally don't replay games(Dragon Age Origins was an exception), so will this 3.0 patch have a noticeable amount of content that would warrant holding off for?  Also, I generally play on the hardest difficulty, would chanters still have the same impact on potd, and how does warrior/paladin's damage fair on potd with the raised stats compared to other more damage focused characters(rogue/cipher/ranger)?

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Mocker, Prime I think you misinterpret my post.

I like fighters, I really do, as I love paladins.

But I only disagree with the point of them being damage dealers.

Yes, they have a lot of great abilities for just that, but they still can't hang with the better damagers and to those I even count chanters.

When I played my 3 chicks I had a fighter for the whole game including Adra dragon but before WM.

I pumped the fighter with the perfect mixture of defense and offense and it was nice without doubt, but a chanter would have been much better.

The paladins defense was so much better and the ciphers offense, I can't even begin to compare those 2.

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Hm, we may be talking past one another.

 

I wasn't saying that chanters are bad (as in ineffective), I was saying I find playing them boring and rote.

 

I wasn't saying that fighters are the best damage dealers, I was saying that they hit a really sweet balance between defence and attack, can switch between the two at will, and that playing with a fighter-based party feels dynamic and exciting.

 

(I also don't particularly enjoy babying a glass cannon.)

Edited by PrimeJunta
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Hm, we may be talking past one another.

 

I wasn't saying that chanters are bad (as in ineffective), I was saying I find playing them boring and rote.

 

I wasn't saying that fighters are the best damage dealers, I was saying that they hit a really sweet balance between defence and attack, can switch between the two at will, and that playing with a fighter-based party feels dynamic and exciting.

 

(I also don't particularly enjoy babying a glass cannon.)

Yeah, I think we are.^^

Let's leave it at that, every class is viable and fun in this game. :)

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Okay, what is this and what happened to the real Internet?

 

Stay on script damnit, we're supposed to keep escalating until one of us gets slapped down by the mods and/or announces they're now ignoring the other. Or brings up Hitler, whichever happens first.

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I have a project. It's a tabletop RPG. It's free. It's a work in progress. Find it here: www.brikoleur.com

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Most classes are functionally the same. Chanters probably got hit the hardest with the changes since due to the Perception change, enemies (And your own characters) are much easier to kill which makes battles end much quicker. This puts Invocations in a really terrible place. Chants however are still very potent and require little input from the player.

 

Fighters can deal damage, in fact, Knock Down got a damage buff. You won't get numbers out of them comparable to a Wizard or Rogue, but at least they can contribute. They're ultimately still best at being used as tanks. Paladins also have much higher damage potential with Sacred Immolation, but it is gotten pretty late. Paladins though, can now serve as a Priest replacement, since Exhortations can be used in place buffs, and Lay on Hands and Healing Chain makes their healing capabilities pretty damn strong.

 

Druids are mostly the same, though Spiritshift damage now scales with level and is much more powerful. Ultimately their spells are better overall, but once you've laid down your DoTs and CC, its not a bad idea to change into the beast of choice and lay down some hurt. Sadly, its duration is still pretty crappy.

 

Wizards are completely identical, though some of their new spells are ridiculously good. Shadowflame is Fireball + Paralyze, which is as amazing as it sounds.

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Okay, what is this and what happened to the real Internet?

 

Stay on script damnit, we're supposed to keep escalating until one of us gets slapped down by the mods and/or announces they're now ignoring the other. Or brings up Hitler, whichever happens first.

Haha. :)

Yeah idk what's wrong with me. :p

(To my defense, you started deescalating, I was out for blood. :D

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Okay, what is this and what happened to the real Internet?

Stay on script damnit, we're supposed to keep escalating until one of us gets slapped down by the mods and/or announces they're now ignoring the other. Or brings up Hitler, whichever happens first.

 

Haha. :)

Yeah idk what's wrong with me. :p

(To my defense, you started deescalating, I was out for blood. :D

Guys, this is unacceptable. I was watching this post expecting some bloodshed. I even had the popcorn ready....

Sigh, guess I'm gonna have to find some entertainment elsewhere :)

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"You choose the wrong adjective."
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An important point too is that a lot of how good a class performs is based on a players general playstyle and likes/dislikes. When I've played rogues/rangers on PotD as primary dmg dealers, they tend to get their head kicked in. Doesn't mean they aren't effect just means I prefer fighters because I don't suck so much with them lol.

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Yeah rogues especially need a lot of micro. Rangers not so much IMO unless you build them for melee.

 

I haven't had the patience to build a riposte rogue to mid-high level though, although @Boeroer assures us it can be done. I suppose you'd want reasonable Resolve, a couple of defensive talents (Shield and Weapon style, Cautious Attack?), and of course stack all the deflection you can with items. And you could afford to dump Dex since you're relying on the automatic riposte rather than primary attacks.

 

Damnit, now I want to try one.

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Yeah rogues especially need a lot of micro. Rangers not so much IMO unless you build them for melee.

 

I haven't had the patience to build a riposte rogue to mid-high level though, although @Boeroer assures us it can be done. I suppose you'd want reasonable Resolve, a couple of defensive talents (Shield and Weapon style, Cautious Attack?), and of course stack all the deflection you can with items. And you could afford to dump Dex since you're relying on the automatic riposte rather than primary attacks.

 

Damnit, now I want to try one.

I did the build with the supposed terrible Devil of Caroc (15 resolve) and she smashed heads in.  I would give her a Reinforcing Exhortation at every priority and it was enemy body parts splattered with her mace.  Once again these experiences are on PotD.

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Have gun will travel.

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I did the build with the supposed terrible Devil of Caroc (15 resolve) and she smashed heads in.  I would give her a Reinforcing Exhortation at every priority and it was enemy body parts splattered with her mace.  Once again these experiences are on PotD.

 

 

She is ok especially factoring in all the immunities with the resolve and heavy armor she's got decent survival while still able to dish out some damage with pikes but it's priceless if she gets oneshoted by the guy that carries the two handed soulbound weapon.

Edited by Vorad
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I did the build with the supposed terrible Devil of Caroc (15 resolve) and she smashed heads in.  I would give her a Reinforcing Exhortation at every priority and it was enemy body parts splattered with her mace.  Once again these experiences are on PotD.

 

 

She is ok especially factoring in all the immunities with the resolve and heavy armor she's got decent survival while still able to dish out some damage with pikes but it's priceless if she gets oneshoted by the guy that carries the two handed soulbound weapon.

 

does knock her out or does it actually KILL her instantly.  That would be hilarious and cool.

Have gun will travel.

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does knock her out or does it actually KILL her instantly.  That would be hilarious and cool.

 

She get's eliminated and her personal quest listed as failed. It was quite funny since it was totally unexpected soon after I realized it's working as intended since after all with the new patch she is a construct not only in theory but also in practice.

Edited by Vorad
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I haven't had the patience to build a riposte rogue to mid-high level though, although @Boeroer assures us it can be done.

It can be done - but it's not very powerful and not very reliable. You will have a sturdy guy who improves his slow attack rate with a Riposte from time to time.

What I did was also to stack as much +def against disengagement attacks. You can take Fast Runner (+5), Graceful Retreat (+12), Cape of Withdrawal (+15) and the chanter's phrase (+10) for a +42 deflection bonus against disengagement attacks. Then you take your riposting rogue and run around the mob in circles to force diseng. attacks. Most of them will miss, triggering a Riposte from time to time (it's only a 20% chance, that is really bad). But at least you keep them busy while attacking from time to time. He also had the ability that turns 50% reflex-based grazes into misses what gave him good defenses against AoE too. Maybe with the Alia Bracca shield that reflects all ranged grazes and the GOlden Scales that reflects 25% (durgan reinf.) of all ranges attacks this would be a funny build. "Come on, hit me! Hit me!"   ;)

Edited by Boeroer
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