You think YOU got issues in your country :biggrin:

[Volourn]

Bruce, do you know what racism and prejudice is? racism is prejudging someone based on their race. Hating someone because they are a certain colour/race is racism. PERIOD.

 

\Claiming all white people are  evil is just as racist as claiming all blacks are monkies. They are both racist and only believed by  moronic pieces of crap. PERIOD.

[Hiro Protagonist]

When a white person gets called a chimp, it's humour. When it's a black person, it's racism.

[BruceVC]

 

Didn't stop Zimbabwe.

 

 

Yes you are right and Zimbabwe is actually a sore spot for me because  members of my family came from there and were involved in the war. But what happened in Zim in the long term has actually ensured white South Africans will never be kicked out of South Africa 

 

So what I am about to explain may sound like I'm being racist but you guys know I'm not and I feel I can just discuss the facts without being diplomatic. Mugabe made a very bad calculation in the 1999's, he decided to break  an old  unspoken African rule " always be nice to white people in your country". Despite criticisms about Colonialism white people in almost all African  countries are treated well and generally control resources 

 

Anyway Mugabe decided to not only kick them  off there farms  , kill or intermediate most white Farmers in Zim he also blamed the UK for reneging on  paying millions of pounds to Zim. He publicly attacked the West and made sure any white people in Zim knew he was the boss and they were outsiders....he really played the " race card"  and made sure he humiliated all white Zimbabweans  . The result was the majority of white people left Zim and due to the illegal occupation of there farms the West declared some financial sanctions. But there was NOTHING stopping any country from investing in Zim or Mugabe getting loans from places like China 

 

Mugabe did all this from about 2000 and in the beginning he was considered a real hero to many Africans who understandably resent the fact that white people own large parts of land that they feel was stolen from them during Colonialism. So I even remember back in 2002 how many black South Africans would phone in defending Mugabe and saying things like " he is a real son of Africa " . Mugabe also made the really egregious decision of deciding to implement " nationalization " where any foreign business had to sell 51% of there business to a black Zimbabwean....so the taxes and job creation weren't enough. He somehow thought local people had an automatic right to any business in Zim

 

But then the economic reality kicked in. No Western country was prepared to invest in Zim and as usual the African Union didn't really care .....and within 2 years the Zim economy was sunk. The Chinese helped in there usual way, loans and some trade but no real investment. And then Mugabe just made things worse, they started printing larger notes and more currency and somehow ignored the concepts of currency trading and how currency is valued

 

Its almost like they believed those irritating conspiracy theorists who say things like " the entire global economy is just a facade...you don't need to follow the rules of global economics " 

 

So with no foreign investment and also with all the other  pressures the Zim economy became almost bankrupt. Some people still to this day think Mugabe was punished by the West for wanting to address the land and for kicking out the Whites but the real reason for Zim economic collapse was completely his own creation

 

He ignored property rights  when they invaded the farms and when  his " nationalization " policy was implemented he destroyed most foreign investment. But most Africans will say " its because he kicked the Whites out " 

 

So that lesson resonates with our current government who have refused to illegally take any land. This is a problem in South Africa at the moment as maybe 55 % of the land is still owned and farmed by white farmers and many black people are frustrated that the government wont address this issue 

 

But the reality is many white people despite the historical injustices of Apartheid still are the primary drivers and  owners of the economy ...and yes I am one of those but thats just how things are. 

 

So in summary white people under the current SA government are fine despite the rhetoric 

Bruce, do you know what racism and prejudice is? racism is prejudging someone based on their race. Hating someone because they are a certain colour/race is racism. PERIOD.

 

\Claiming all white people are  evil is just as racist as claiming all blacks are monkies. They are both racist and only believed by  moronic pieces of crap. PERIOD.

No Volo its not the same in South Africa

[BruceVC]

When a white person gets called a chimp, it's humour. When it's a black person, it's racism.

You right but in Africa to call any black person a monkey is more offensive because there is  a view that due to all the failed states and disastrous economies black people are actually stupid like monkeys. Its weird but black people believe it more than they should 

 

Its hard to explain but its just something we as white liberals never would ever do....its just something that would hurt black people and offend them ...like this incident now. 

[HoonDing]

They are all Mama Merkel's sons.

[BruceVC]

They are all Mama Merkel's sons.

No there is a huge difference between black Africans and Arabs 

 

I completely understand what motivates black people and what there grievances are, its reasonable and its something as a white person I believe I have a commitment to help resolve in South Africa 

 

But I'll be honest I'm tired of dealing with religious intransigence that is inconsistent with how the Muslim community should be helping there own

 

Other liberals can deal with that

[Heijoushin]

Got to be honest Bruce... Reading that makes me glad I got out of SA. So nice to be in a country where people aren't always obsessing about racism.

[BruceVC]

Got to be honest Bruce... Reading that makes me glad I got out of SA. So nice to be in a country where people aren't always obsessing about racism.

I can understand that perspective

 

Its become normal for us White liberals but I'm also probably explaining it in a way that makes it sound arduous because its not all bad if you don't everything seriously 

 

But yes if you partake in talk shows like me you have to accept that basically everyday you will be blamed for something that was caused by Apartheid. But then the positive side is when more and more black South Africans  become part of the economic transformation or you are able to explain something that helps them in some way 

[Heijoushin]

 

Got to be honest Bruce... Reading that makes me glad I got out of SA. So nice to be in a country where people aren't always obsessing about racism.

I can understand that perspective

 

Its become normal for us White liberals but I'm also probably explaining it in a way that makes it sound arduous because its not all bad if you don't everything seriously 

 

But yes if you partake in talk shows like me you have to accept that basically everyday you will be blamed for something that was caused by Apartheid. But then the positive side is when more and more black South Africans  become part of the economic transformation or you are able to explain something that helps them in some way 

 

 

You partake in talk shows? You must have an interesting job;)

 

Well, it's just like you said: one foolish person makes a twitter comment, and once again everyone drags up the last 50 years of history.

It's kind of like fighting with one's girlfriend. You start arguing about something totally random, and then suddenly all the old baggage is brought up...

 

One thing I like about Japan is that they're such a homogeneous society (98% Japanese) that they barely even understand the concept of "political correctness" as we know it in the west. Of course, that frustrates some people. But for me, having been raised in South Africa, it's like breathe of fresh air. 

Edited January 6, 2016 by Heijoushin

[BruceVC]

 

 

Got to be honest Bruce... Reading that makes me glad I got out of SA. So nice to be in a country where people aren't always obsessing about racism.

I can understand that perspective

 

Its become normal for us White liberals but I'm also probably explaining it in a way that makes it sound arduous because its not all bad if you don't everything seriously 

 

But yes if you partake in talk shows like me you have to accept that basically everyday you will be blamed for something that was caused by Apartheid. But then the positive side is when more and more black South Africans  become part of the economic transformation or you are able to explain something that helps them in some way 

 

 

You partake in talk shows? You must have an interesting job;)

 

Well, it's just like you said: one foolish person makes a twitter comment, and once again everyone drags up the last 50 years of history.

It's kind of like fighting with one's girlfriend. You start arguing about something totally random, and then suddenly all the old baggage is brought up...

 

One thing I like about Japan is that they're such a homogeneous society (98% Japanese) that they barely even understand the concept of "political correctness" as we know it in the west. Of course, that frustrates some people. But for me, having been raised in South Africa, it's like breathe of fresh air. 

 

Yes I'm very active on 2 -3 primary radio talk shows. When I say " active "  I mean I phone in during the evening  pending work commitments and get involved in debates. I work in software and often I work from home so I can connect and listen to the radio and work

 

Radio talk shows are   very popular as a medium to discuss issues about the new South Africa and I find its the best way to try to make a point because there is loads of misunderstandings about things like how to drive our economy

 

My brother does some Japanese martial art and he travels to Japan once a year, he even speaks Japanese. I have huge respect for the Japanese and how they rebuilt there entire culture after ww2

 

But I have also heard they don't seem to understand or care about things like SJ, what is it like there? Do they care about womens rights, gay rights? And why do you think they don't care....I'm not trying to judge them I'm just interested ?

[HoonDing]

"But I have also heard they don't seem to understand or care about things like SJ, what is it like there? Do they care about womens rights, gay rights? And why do you think they don't care....I'm not trying to judge them I'm just interested ?"

しょうがない

[BruceVC]

"But I have also heard they don't seem to understand or care about things like SJ, what is it like there? Do they care about womens rights, gay rights? And why do you think they don't care....I'm not trying to judge them I'm just interested ?"

しょうがない

Dude please speak English if you have something to add, I obviously don't speak Japanese

[HoonDing]

What's nice about Chinese and Japanese is that you can say a whole lot with very few words.

[BruceVC]

What's nice about Chinese and Japanese is that you can say a whole lot with very few words.

If you don't mind me asking how did you learn those languages....are you from there ?

 

I admire people who can speak other languages 

[Heijoushin]

 

Yes I'm very active on 2 -3 primary radio talk shows. When I say " active "  I mean I phone in during the evening  pending work commitments and get involved in debates. I work in software and often I work from home so I can connect and listen to the radio and work

 

Radio talk shows are   very popular as a medium to discuss issues about the new South Africa and I find its the best way to try to make a point because there is loads of misunderstandings about things like how to drive our economy

 

My brother does some Japanese martial art and he travels to Japan once a year, he even speaks Japanese. I have huge respect for the Japanese and how they rebuilt there entire culture after ww2

 

But I have also heard they don't seem to understand or care about things like SJ, what is it like there? Do they care about womens rights, gay rights? And why do you think they don't care....I'm not trying to judge them I'm just interested ?

 

 

Do you ever use material from these forums when you're debating on radio shows?

 

Well... like I said, they're a very homogeneous society. This means that they don't meet too many people from other countries, and so they tend to believe very blatant stereotypes. Like when I say I'm a South African, 90% of the time, the response is "Oh, you're the first SA guy I've ever met. I thought all South Africans were black." Now, in the west, because we're sensitive to racial topics, that would be kinda rude, yeah? But they're just honestly stating what they think.

 

Likewise, very few people here are openly gay. Most Japanese will say with a straight face: "I've never met a gay person. I don't think there are gay people in Japan" (hint: there are gay people in Japan)

 

And finally, yes, their attitudes towards women are also very conservative.

So all-in-all, no one cares about social justice here. Not in a mean way, just... they don't think about it. And there aren't any minorities to remind them.

 

It's also very Japanese to "not rock the boat". Better to just go with the flow.

 

"But I have also heard they don't seem to understand or care about things like SJ, what is it like there? Do they care about womens rights, gay rights? And why do you think they don't care....I'm not trying to judge them I'm just interested ?"

しょうがない

 

"しょうがない" means "It can't be helped / there's nothing that can be done". Sort of in a "It's out of our control so don't worry about it" sense. They DO tend to write off a lot of things this way;)

Edited January 6, 2016 by Heijoushin

[BruceVC]

 

 

Yes I'm very active on 2 -3 primary radio talk shows. When I say " active "  I mean I phone in during the evening  pending work commitments and get involved in debates. I work in software and often I work from home so I can connect and listen to the radio and work

 

Radio talk shows are   very popular as a medium to discuss issues about the new South Africa and I find its the best way to try to make a point because there is loads of misunderstandings about things like how to drive our economy

 

My brother does some Japanese martial art and he travels to Japan once a year, he even speaks Japanese. I have huge respect for the Japanese and how they rebuilt there entire culture after ww2

 

But I have also heard they don't seem to understand or care about things like SJ, what is it like there? Do they care about womens rights, gay rights? And why do you think they don't care....I'm not trying to judge them I'm just interested ?

 

 

Do you ever use material from these forums when you're debating on radio shows?

 

Well... like I said, they're a very homogeneous society. This means that they don't meet too many people from other countries, and so they tend to believe very blatant stereotypes. Like when I say I'm a South African, 90% of the time, the response is "Oh, you're the first SA guy I've ever met. I thought all South Africans were black." Now, in the west, because we're sensitive to racial topics, that would be kinda rude, yeah? But they're just honestly stating what they think.

 

Likewise, very few people here are openly gay. Most Japanese will say with a straight face: "I've never met a gay person. I don't think there are gay people in Japan" (hint: there are gay people in Japan)

 

And finally, yes, their attitudes towards women are also very conservative.

So all-in-all, no one cares about social justice here. Not in a mean way, just... they don't think about it. And there aren't any minorities to remind them.

 

It's also very Japanese to "not rock the boat". Better to just go with the flow.

 

"But I have also heard they don't seem to understand or care about things like SJ, what is it like there? Do they care about womens rights, gay rights? And why do you think they don't care....I'm not trying to judge them I'm just interested ?"

しょうがない

 

"しょうがない" means "It can't be helped / there's nothing that can be done". Sort in a "It's out of our control so don't worry about it" sense. They DO tend to write off a lot of things this way;)

 

Thanks for responding, I am finding this very interesting. As you can imagine I find it  incongruous to think of a country that isn't a dictatorship where minority groups don't want more rights...this is just basic human nature

 

Also why do all the women in there games look like children? I know this sounds like I'm criticizing but surly someone must be aware of how possibly questionable this appears. Its like they objectify every women so that they have huge breasts or other outlandish features. And I'm not a prude, I watch porn and go to strip clubs but that is with women..not children.  But I suppose as you already explained these types of SJ pressures aren't that common there? 

[Chilloutman]

well it reminde me about guy from US who was working here in 'eastern Europe'. At first he was quite 'shocked' how people relate to each other and how they are 'ignorant' about some issues. After year or so I spoke to him again and he saz to me:

 

'I dont even want to go back to US. Everything is problem there, you have to constantly watch what you are saying so you are not flagged as 'insert SJW problematic word'. Here? No problems at all with anything, you can grab your beer and walk on the streets, you can open doors for lady and she smiles back.'

Edited January 6, 2016 by Chilloutman

[Heijoushin]

Thanks for responding, I am finding this very interesting. As you can imagine I find it  incongruous to think of a country that isn't a dictatorship where minority groups don't want more rights...this is just basic human nature

 

 

Also why do all the women in there games look like children? I know this sounds like I'm criticizing but surly someone must be aware of how possibly questionable this appears. Its like they objectify every women so that they have huge breasts or other outlandish features. And I'm not a prude, I watch porn and go to strip clubs but that is with women..not children.  But I suppose as you already explained these types of SJ pressures aren't that common there? 

 

 

One Japanese person told me that since there aren't any minorities to hate on, they hate on rich people instead;) I'm not sure if that's true or not.

 

Well... my understanding of the "underaged girls" issue is... Basically, in Japan (and in Asian cultures in general I think), they tend to want more "youthful" characteristics in their women. In the west, teenage girls might put on makeup to look more like adults. Conversely, in Japan, women put on makeup in a way that makes them look younger. After WW2, they adapted American laws about the age of consent etc., but I think its still kind of at odds with their cultural psych. So the law is the law, but people look for loop-holes. Like the extreme pornography for one. And unless someone REALLY crosses the line, it's all kind of winked at.

Edited January 6, 2016 by Heijoushin

[HoonDing]

The minority hated the most in Japan are the Zainichi Koreans.

 

As for homosexuality... it's a country where Abrahamic religions never had any influence at all (and for their sake, may it remain that way), so it is not a big deal at all.

[BruceVC]

well it reminde me about guy from US who was working here in 'eastern Europe'. At first he was quite 'shocked' how people relate to each other and how they are 'ignorant' about some issues. After year or so I spoke to him again and he saz to me:

 

'I dont even want to go back to US. Everything is problem there, you have to constantly watch what you are saying so you are not flagged as 'insert SJW problematic word'. Here? No problems at all with anything, you can grab your beer and walk on the streets, you can open doors for lady and she smiles back.'

I think you probably have the wrong idea about SJW pressure and I don't think its your fault because you probably think people who push SJ issues on the Internet are annoying. Like that game you guys are making and how there were no black characters and how suddenly everyone seemed to getting involved and " criticizing" your developers \

 

That was wrong what we did, people like me sometimes forget that we can't expect every single country to automatically accept the same levels of inclusion that exist in Western countries...so sometimes when people find out a country like Czech is developing its own type of game we assume its okay  for us to now start telling you what should be in the game but that is actually rude and offensive. Your developers have every right to make a game that is historically accurate or inaccurate as they want. My only advice is you need to get people who understand Western SJ movements to be a spokesmen because those developers tried to explain but they weren't very convincing and sometimes just made things worse  

 

But anyway I don't get involved in SJ movements on the Internet anymore, they are waste of time IMO as most of the time its about various "SJ" groups criticizing gamers and suddenly expecting gamers to support changes to games that they don't even design...so why attack the gamers, who also happen to be mostly white, males. So to me it just seemed like a underhanded way to attack white people for no reason.

 

So now I only focus on SJ in RL

 

 

Thanks for responding, I am finding this very interesting. As you can imagine I find it  incongruous to think of a country that isn't a dictatorship where minority groups don't want more rights...this is just basic human nature

 

 

Also why do all the women in there games look like children? I know this sounds like I'm criticizing but surly someone must be aware of how possibly questionable this appears. Its like they objectify every women so that they have huge breasts or other outlandish features. And I'm not a prude, I watch porn and go to strip clubs but that is with women..not children.  But I suppose as you already explained these types of SJ pressures aren't that common there? 

 

 

One Japanese person told me that since there aren't any minorities to hate on, they hate on rich people instead;) I'm not sure if that's true or not.

 

Well... my understanding of the "underaged girls" issue is... Basically, in Japan (and in Asian cultures in general I think), they tend to want more "youthful" characteristics in their women. In the west, teenage girls might put on makeup to look more like adults. Conversely, in Japan, women put on makeup in a way that makes them look younger. After WW2, they adapted American laws about the age of consent etc., but I think its still kind of at odds with their cultural psych. So the law is the law, but people look for loop-holes. Like the extreme pornography for one. And unless someone REALLY crosses the line, it's all kind of winked at.

 

Very interesting again

 

I assume Japan doesn't have an issue with child rape and children being raped and murdered. As you probably know that is another aspect of crime we deal with in South Africa so obviously those types of images would be considered inappropriate if designed by South Africans

 

And no one is suggesting that normal people who play those games are weird or should feel weird but in a country where crimes against children are a reality you generally wouldn't find society making images like that  

Edited January 6, 2016 by BruceVC

[BruceVC]

The minority hated the most in Japan are the Zainichi Koreans.

 

As for homosexuality... it's a country where Abrahamic religions never had any influence at all (and for their sake, may it remain that way), so it is not a big deal at all.

How come you know so much about Japan? Did you live there 

[Barothmuk]

you can open doors for lady and she smiles back.'

I'm pretty sure "feminists are offended by people holding doors" is just a crazy reddit meme.

[Chilloutman]

I think you probably have the wrong idea about SJW pressure and I don't think its your fault because you probably think people who push SJ issues on the Internet are annoying. Like that game you guys are making and how there were no black characters and how suddenly everyone seemed to getting involved and " criticizing" your developers \

 

That was wrong what we did, people like me sometimes forget that we can't expect every single country to automatically accept the same levels of inclusion that exist in Western countries...so sometimes when people find out a country like Czech is developing its own type of game we assume its okay  for us to now start telling you what should be in the game but that is actually rude and offensive. Your developers have every right to make a game that is historically accurate or inaccurate as they want. My only advice is you need to get people who understand Western SJ movements to be a spokesmen because those developers tried to explain but they weren't very convincing and sometimes just made things worse  

 

But anyway I don't get involved in SJ movements on the Internet anymore, they are waste of time IMO as most of the time its about various "SJ" groups criticizing gamers and suddenly expecting gamers to support changes to games that they don't even design...so why attack the gamers, who also happen to be mostly white, males. So to me it just seemed like a underhanded way to attack white people for no reason.

 

So now I only focus on SJ in RL

No you maybe got it wrong. People here still care about woman rights for example. But there is large number of people from same culture that have very similar opinions so there is not so much pressure from all minorities. Basically if you live by rules of local community you will not run into problems. Thats why many people here dont like multiculturalism. They just dont need to be in constant stress of doing something which may someone from different culture find offensive. But I personally think its completely ok. Do you know what will happen when multiculturalism win? There will left only one culture and all these colors of the world will be gone.

[Heijoushin]

Very interesting again

 

I assume Japan doesn't have an issue with child rape and children being raped and murdered. As you probably know that is another aspect of crime we deal with in South Africa so obviously those types of images would be considered inappropriate if designed by South Africans

 

And no one is suggesting that normal people who play those games are weird or should feel weird but in a country where crimes against children are a reality you generally wouldn't find society making images like that  

 

 

Well, of course it has an issue with the actual acts! But would they draw manga/porn on the subject? Oh yeah.

Now, you could argue that just looking at those images is not very healthy, but since their crime rates are relatively low... well, can we as South Africans really criticize how they run their country?

 

And on the other hand, they have their own problems. Suicides, bullying, hikikomori, chikan etc.

Edited January 6, 2016 by Heijoushin

[BruceVC]

 

I think you probably have the wrong idea about SJW pressure and I don't think its your fault because you probably think people who push SJ issues on the Internet are annoying. Like that game you guys are making and how there were no black characters and how suddenly everyone seemed to getting involved and " criticizing" your developers \

 

That was wrong what we did, people like me sometimes forget that we can't expect every single country to automatically accept the same levels of inclusion that exist in Western countries...so sometimes when people find out a country like Czech is developing its own type of game we assume its okay  for us to now start telling you what should be in the game but that is actually rude and offensive. Your developers have every right to make a game that is historically accurate or inaccurate as they want. My only advice is you need to get people who understand Western SJ movements to be a spokesmen because those developers tried to explain but they weren't very convincing and sometimes just made things worse  

 

But anyway I don't get involved in SJ movements on the Internet anymore, they are waste of time IMO as most of the time its about various "SJ" groups criticizing gamers and suddenly expecting gamers to support changes to games that they don't even design...so why attack the gamers, who also happen to be mostly white, males. So to me it just seemed like a underhanded way to attack white people for no reason.

 

So now I only focus on SJ in RL

No you maybe got it wrong. People here still care about woman rights for example. But there is large number of people from same culture that have very similar opinions so there is not so much pressure from all minorities. Basically if you live by rules of local community you will not run into problems. Thats why many people here dont like multiculturalism. They just dont need to be in constant stress of doing something which may someone from different culture find offensive. But I personally think its completely ok. Do you know what will happen when multiculturalism win? There will left only one culture and all these colors of the world will be gone.

 

Sure, yes I get that. Your country needs to change and become multicultural on its own time...I am not going to start telling you what you should do I have enough to deal with on the African continent with countries that have real issues like there citizens who have lived and died for in abject poverty for decades because of corrupt African leaders

 

Czech doesn't need my type of advice, you guys are fine 

 

 

Very interesting again

 

I assume Japan doesn't have an issue with child rape and children being raped and murdered. As you probably know that is another aspect of crime we deal with in South Africa so obviously those types of images would be considered inappropriate if designed by South Africans

 

And no one is suggesting that normal people who play those games are weird or should feel weird but in a country where crimes against children are a reality you generally wouldn't find society making images like that  

 

 

Well, of course it has an issue with the actual acts! But would they draw manga/porn on the subject? Oh yeah.

Now, you could argue that just looking at those images is not very healthy, but since their crime rates are relatively low... well, can we as South Africans really criticize how they run their country?

 

And on the other hand, they have their own problems. Suicides, bullying, hikikomori, chikan etc.

 

Of course, I'm well aware of the appalling crime levels in South Africa but that doesn't stop me noticing other parts of the world 

 

And in Japan the whole issue of pedophiles is obviously not a such a big social problem as other parts of the world so these child images aren't scrutinized as much