What PnP classes would be a good fit for PE?

[DreamWayfarer]

While I mostly agree with PrimeJunta, I think anameforobsifian is right in that fighters, and in my opinion other martial classes, need more CC options.

 

Imagine if every enemy that disengaged a fighter tank got hobbled, or if rogues could for a short period stun instead of interrupt? It could incentivate martial classes to invest more in INT and diversify class roles, perhaps allowing fighter builds that are not pure auto-attackers with zero micro-management.

[evilcat]

Personally i would miss martial classes. Since each have some "feel". Only classes in PoE which have specific gimmick are Monks, Chanters, Ciphers. The rest potencially could be just made "Adventurer" with a bunch of abilities and talents. Being "warrior" who occasionally cast fun of flames is not that hard to imagine. But that would result in loss of class flavour of Barbarian (scent of barbarian, new fragrance for men), so no.

 

Imho the probalems with martial and casters are:

1. Casters get 4 spell/rest and it is balanced, but then they get it per encounter, but martial does not get anything. Fighter does not get "May trip as often as like".

2. Each caster have something lie 50 spells, half of them is suboptimal, but it still leaves 25, from which player can pick what suits him. Martial not alwas have 20 abilities to pick from (and half of them are suboptimal, and quarter do not fit concept). Martial simply have not enought abilities.

3. Overbalanced. Some of abilities are overbalanced, the are make so hard not be dominant that they reach point when they dosnt matter. Like Flames of Devotion +50% dmg twice per combat. Which is... +10% for 10 hits, that is quite fast. Compering to fighter weapon specialization which is +10% as long as you want.

4. Casters do not need talents. Without talents caster spells are still quite effective. But martial without talents are seriously gimped. Maybe martial classes should get free talents at some levels just as casters get free spells/encounter.

 

 

How to fix it:

1. Constantly buff abilities which are underused. The good thing about Single PLayer game is that if you make fighter bottom kicking nobody will complain that much. It is better when class is overpowered (at least someone has fun) than underpowered (no reason to play it).

2. Give martial more abilities, so for each class there will be like 2-3 supported builds. Like Fighter could be: DMG dealer, or tankish, or stunlocker, and even Sharpshooter (with firearms). Paladin could either supporter, defender or all out dps eldrich night.

 

What could also help is if weapon have a 4th category of enhancement (after quality, leash and slayin) for special effects like draining, stun on crits, dr bypass, or spellstrike.

Edited December 25, 2015 by evilcat

[TheisEjsing]

All i want added is a pirate class. With such vast oceans in Eora, pirates ought to be plentiful. + they wear fancy hats!

Edited December 25, 2015 by TheisEjsing

[DreamWayfarer]

All i want added is a pirate class. With such vast oceans in Eora, pirates ought to be plentiful. + they wear fancy hats!

That would fit a background better. The wolves of wild waters are a diverse lot.

Edited December 25, 2015 by DreamWayfarer

[PrimeJunta]

I'd settle for pirate pistols. I.e., make pistols one-handed so I can have a sabre in one hand and a pistol in the other. With one of those snazzy tricorns you'll have the look right down.

 

I would also like more Vailian fashions. The purple is rather... offensive to the eye. Red Rackham somehow has a better ring to it than Lavender Caglioni.

[Torm51]

Junta.  You are a smart dude and I usually agree with you but this time I cant.  Its what I like about PoE the classes.  Like old school rpgs.  I like that Paladins are from different Orders and that Fighters are fighters.  Warriors for armies but that have no moral code   and that monks are martial artist who have trained their entire lives.  If PoE went into the classless stuff that all the new RPGs are doing I would hate it.  I love classes.

Edited December 26, 2015 by Torm51

[ShadySands]

Warlock for infinite casting

[DreamWayfarer]

Warlock for infinite casting

Cipher here for you.

 

 

Plus, the lore as it is does not mix well with traditional D&D warlocks.

[PrimeJunta]

Junta.  You are a smart dude and I usually agree with you but this time I cant.  Its what I like about PoE the classes.  Like old school rpgs.  I like that Paladins are from different Orders and that Fighters are fighters.  Warriors for armies but that have no moral code   and that monks are martial artist who have trained their entire lives.  If PoE went into the classless stuff that all the new RPGs are doing I would hate it.  I love classes.

I also like the Pillars class system in general, and I definitely like all of those examples. I would not get rid of paladins or monks, or merge them into any other classes.

 

The only part I don't like is the relatively weak and somewhat artificial differentiation between the fighter, rogue, and barbarian, and I think it would be a good idea to merge the three into a single martial class.

[anameforobsidian]

 

Junta.  You are a smart dude and I usually agree with you but this time I cant.  Its what I like about PoE the classes.  Like old school rpgs.  I like that Paladins are from different Orders and that Fighters are fighters.  Warriors for armies but that have no moral code   and that monks are martial artist who have trained their entire lives.  If PoE went into the classless stuff that all the new RPGs are doing I would hate it.  I love classes.

I also like the Pillars class system in general, and I definitely like all of those examples. I would not get rid of paladins or monks, or merge them into any other classes.

 

The only part I don't like is the relatively weak and somewhat artificial differentiation between the fighter, rogue, and barbarian, and I think it would be a good idea to merge the three into a single martial class.

 

 

Ditto what Torm said.  Do you dislike the separation from a narrative / flavor point of view or from a mechanical point of view?  The descriptions you gave could mean both.  Also, this would be out of scope, (nothing is out of scope for PE 2 because it will fulfill all our dreams, even the one where the nun is made out of cheese!) how would you feel about barbarian and rogue being prestige classes from a basic melee class?

[DreamWayfarer]

 

 

 

Junta. You are a smart dude and I usually agree with you but this time I cant. Its what I like about PoE the classes. Like old school rpgs. I like that Paladins are from different Orders and that Fighters are fighters. Warriors for armies but that have no moral code and that monks are martial artist who have trained their entire lives. If PoE went into the classless stuff that all the new RPGs are doing I would hate it. I love classes.

I also like the Pillars class system in general, and I definitely like all of those examples. I would not get rid of paladins or monks, or merge them into any other classes.

 

The only part I don't like is the relatively weak and somewhat artificial differentiation between the fighter, rogue, and barbarian, and I think it would be a good idea to merge the three into a single martial class.

Ditto what Torm said. Do you dislike the separation from a narrative / flavor point of view or from a mechanical point of view?

 

While I can't speak for PrimeJunta, I think that flavorwise all of those three classes could be covered by a weaponmaster class, the differentiation coming in the form of mutualy exclusive talents/abilities.

 

As for gameplay, all of those classes generaly use a self buff, one or two active skills, and then just auto-attack. The main difference is if they want to stick to many foes or avoid damage, which depends only on their resilience, which can already vary wildly within the same class if you try some less common builds.

[PrimeJunta]

Ditto what Torm said.  Do you dislike the separation from a narrative / flavor point of view or from a mechanical point of view?  The descriptions you gave could mean both.  Also, this would be out of scope, (nothing is out of scope for PE 2 because it will fulfill all our dreams, even the one where the nun is made out of cheese!) how would you feel about barbarian and rogue being prestige classes from a basic melee class?

Mechanical, mostly. But now that you name it, also narrative.

 

The separation made more sense actually when the fighter was as it was originally conceived -- a dedicated tank. Trouble is, that fighter wasn't anywhere near as much fun as it is currently. Right now, you can use a fighter as a basis for any "martial" role in the party -- tank, front-line damage, ranged damage -- which makes the rogue and the barb redundant.

 

I don't like prestige classes at all, so, no. Give me talent trees with seriously cool abilities down the branches instead.

[anameforobsidian]

See, I don't like talent trees very much.  Furthermore, rogue gameplay never quite clicked for me, but I found barbs significantly different than fighters.  Most fighters benefit from tank and spank positioning.  Lots of blocking, engage smaller groups if possible, knockdown and control more powerful mobs, doorways and narrow halls are your friends.  Barbs benefit from very different positioning, especially if they have the rush talent.  They want open spaces, especially with a crowd clustered around the mages, and a dps race to the finish.

 

Narrative wise, I think that just means the barbs need a bit more explanation, but this is true of all classes that aren't fighters, ciphers, chanters, druids, or priests.  Sagani never explains why / how she has Itumaak.  Pallegina never talks about paladin powers as a thing.  There are no mage schools in game.  The Doemenels don't have enough quests to build a strong rogue atmosphere.  (Haven't played White March yet, so that may explain more).

[PrimeJunta]

I've mostly played with damage-built fighters and don't use tank-and-spank tactics. That way they're moderately robust front-liners that do a lot of damage. Thing is, barbarians are also moderately robust front-liners that do a lot of damage, except you have to use their per-encounter talents actively to keep them standing. Sure, there are differences, but from where I'm at they're more differences of style rather than substance.

 

So the rogue, barb, and fighter kind of blur into each other, and I fail to see what's gained by keeping them separate classes rather than letting any martial-oriented character pick what they like from all their talents. Yes, it would likely make for more powerful builds especially at higher levels, but then martial characters tend to fall behind spell-casters at that point, so that might even be good, balance-wise.

[ShadySands]

 

Warlock for infinite casting

Cipher here for you.

 

 

Plus, the lore as it is does not mix well with traditional D&D warlocks.

No thanks

 

I want something mechanically more similar to a warlock and I'm sure any lore issues could be resolved by a creative mind. PE already has a twist on most things already.

[evilcat]

Turning game into marxist utopia will not do two things:

1) Will not make existing abilities any better

2) Will not create new abilities and talents

 

In fact, it will do quite opposite since existing system will be thrown away and a lot of time will be wasted before anything good may be done.

 

IMO this two are important things needed to the game on character creation side.

 

So i prefer do Devs will focus on important stuff. Not to mention all other things which are not character creation system (quests, companion interaction, crafting and gear, stronghold, fancy enemies...).

Edited December 26, 2015 by evilcat

[DreamWayfarer]

Turning game into marxist utopia will not do two things:

 

Now I want to create a socialist party to revolutionize Eora 0_o.

 

 

EDIT: and what you mean by turning the game into a marxist utopia?

Edited December 26, 2015 by DreamWayfarer

[Sedrefilos]

So here's a new background (including dialogue options!) istead of new class: Revolutionary!

More interesting, more unique and adds to the roleplay (in which the game needs more work instead of combat)!.

Edited December 26, 2015 by Sedrefilos

[PrimeJunta]

Objection! In Marxist utopia, everything is better.

 

 

Where did that come from anyway?

 

[DreamWayfarer]

So here's a new background (including dialogue options!) istead of new class: Revolutionary!

More interesting, more unique and adds to the roleplay (in which the game needs more work instead of combat)!.

But can't dissidents be former revolutionaries already?

 

 

 

EDIT: Wait, I had an idea! While members of the socialist party may not be there necessarily for the revolution, they all need support capacity, even if only to keep the appearences.

 

So we could have an Goldpact Knight PC, built as a tank/support and only part of the group in order to install himself as dictator.

 

Closing the frontline, we could have two chanters, fanatical believers and spreaders of the ideology.

 

On the backrow, we could have a gunman Kind Wayfarer who is a genuine, well intentioned idealist who just realized he is trapped with those fools and is too afraid to free.

 

Just behind him, a vengeful priest of Skaen, who is in it to kill all nobles.

 

And to end it all, The Dull Runner, Boeroer's crazy Bleak Walker who is in it to DESTROY, and is kept just barely under control by the leader. He is not frontline, he is not backline, he is just there to break enemy lines. And skulls.

Edited December 26, 2015 by DreamWayfarer

[evilcat]

 

Turning game into marxist utopia will not do two things:

Now I want to create a socialist party to revolutionize Eora 0_o.

 

 

EDIT: and what you mean by turning the game into a marxist utopia?

 

 

A classless sytem (where loot is fairly distrubuted among all party memebrs ) )

[DreamWayfarer]

 

 

 

Turning game into marxist utopia will not do two things:

Now I want to create a socialist party to revolutionize Eora 0_o.

 

 

EDIT: and what you mean by turning the game into a marxist utopia?

A classless sytem (where loot is fairly distrubuted among all party memebrs ) )

Hah! Classless systems are (mostly) superior, althought I prefer when they are only mostly classless, and your character already starts with an amount of especialization that stays relevant throught all of the game. After all, the characters must have some previous skills and inclinations. Edited December 27, 2015 by DreamWayfarer

[evilcat]

 

Hah! Classless systems are (mostly) superior, althought I prefer when they are only mostly classless, and your character already starts with an amount of especialization that stays relevant throught all of the game. After all, the characters must have some previous skills and inclinations.

 

Not sure what exacly you are thinking of, but if something like Harebrainer's Shadowrun, then this is quite fun system. You can make Cyberdecking Mage in that. Or cyberware Spirit Adept. However it is not very complex, which for some may be a problem.

 

Any system combines factors:

- Depth

- Complexity

- Options

The advantage of current PoE system is that it has some depth, potencially give options, yet is not hard to understand.

Being it classless would make it harder to understand and fallow.

 

[PrimeJunta]

A classless sytem (where loot is fairly distrubuted among all party memebrs ) )

Funny you should mention this: my PnP homebrew project does just this. It's a classless system where XP (called juju) is thrown into the party pool, and the players get to decide how to spend it. They can divide it up evenly, reward someone for extra-good gameplay, spend it on shared assets, or use it in gameplay. I think it works pretty well actually.

 

(It also has anarcho-Trotskyite space Communists.)

[Doppelschwert]

They are the animal companion class, two halves of a character that must be coordinated for great effect. While a good deal of their abilities are geared towards ranged, they have enough abilities that work on melee weapons to not be forced into ranged.

Sorry for being off topic, but I've read this multiple times by now and I wonder if there is a comprehensive list of what works with melee weapons and what doesn't? Or is there even some general rule that everything applies which doesn't explicitly mention a ranged weapon?

 

Sooner or later when the WM2 hits I'll want to build another custom party with class bending concepts.