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European Refugee Crisis : Part 2

BruceVC

By BruceVC
in Way Off-Topic

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Zoraptor

Zoraptor

Posted
Posted

 

Pretty obvious approach really, they've been demonising Greece for years about their economy, might as well demonise them for not being able to cope with the millions of refugees places like Germany are handling so very, very, well in comparison. It's not like Germany has simply 'lost' hundreds of thousands of refugees or suchlike, after all and I'm sure if they have it's just different for some reason that we don't need to know about but just believe them it's the near bankrupt country with 20 million people's fault for not protecting poor, unfortunate, under resourced Germany from the refugee hordes. It's like we're all meant to forget/ pretend that Merkel's open invitation to refugees which actively encouraged them (n)ever happened.

 

Heaping all the blame on the country least able to actually do anything about it due to having 3000 islands, a massive maritime border (with a Turkey who has actively encouraged refugee movements as a political tool), no money and few resources is an utterly scum move designed solely to insulate those at very least as much to blame as Greece such as Merkel and Erdogan from as much of said blame as possible. It's politically expedient, utterly cynical and totally understandable- and also a spineless, gutless abrogation of responsibility and ostrich like denial of reality.

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Elerond

Elerond

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Posted

It is not sudden notice, as from beginning of the crisis in last year estimates were that around 50-90% of asylum seekers don't actually fulfill requirements for asylum. But asylum process is quite lengthy and takes from 6 months to several years (because there is possibility to complain in several levels of court including European human rights court, which all can take quite lot of time especially when there are (tens of) thousands complains). This is also reason why some politicians have argued should be faster.

 

Also deportation process will not be easy and it also will take quite lot time and in many cases it will fail, because home countries of deported people aren't that keen to take back those that are deported. Also some people whose asylum request get denied will go hiding or will try to go to other countries to seek asylum. So without massive change how things are handled, lot of this people whose asylum got denied will be around years to come.

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Darkpriest

Darkpriest

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Posted

The SLIGHT difference is, the Russians want to have a free go around Crimea and are not causing social, political and possibly economic issues to the EU, whereas Turkey, who is being in the grey zone due to 'helping finance ISIS' and murdering kurds now openly extorts money from EU because they know that EU can't cope with another wave of 2mil muslim migrants.

 

The Spring is near....

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Elerond

Elerond

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Posted

The SLIGHT difference is, the Russians want to have a free go around Crimea and are not causing social, political and possibly economic issues to the EU, whereas Turkey, who is being in the grey zone due to 'helping finance ISIS' and murdering kurds now openly extorts money from EU because they know that EU can't cope with another wave of 2mil muslim migrants.

 

The Spring is near....

 

Russia likes to cause possible social, political and economic issues in EU,

 

Russia is also in grey zone because of similar issues that Turkey has, which is why there are economical and political sanctions against them.

 

Also Russia has enough migrants to pose similar threat as Turkey and even greater as they don't need to take account what they military allies say like Turkey.

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Darkpriest

Darkpriest

Posted
Posted

 

The SLIGHT difference is, the Russians want to have a free go around Crimea and are not causing social, political and possibly economic issues to the EU, whereas Turkey, who is being in the grey zone due to 'helping finance ISIS' and murdering kurds now openly extorts money from EU because they know that EU can't cope with another wave of 2mil muslim migrants.

 

The Spring is near....

 

Russia likes to cause possible social, political and economic issues in EU,

 

Russia is also in grey zone because of similar issues that Turkey has, which is why there are economical and political sanctions against them.

 

Also Russia has enough migrants to pose similar threat as Turkey and even greater as they don't need to take account what they military allies say like Turkey.

 

 

Yes, Russians like to have their say and they like to support more right winged parties within EU (see various CEE countries and some factions and personal ties in other countries - France, Germany), but aside of that, how are they actually able to cause social and economic issues?

 

Do you want to tell me that there is is 4mil Russians waiting on the border to invade and destabilize EU countries with vastly different cultural habits and social benefits claims?

 

The economical and political sanctions Russia earned for being too stupid to consent with the Crimea in UA and pushed their little green men in eastern Ukraine for some dumb reason. They get more troubles from Oil being low than the sanctions though.

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Elerond

Elerond

Posted
Posted

 

 

The SLIGHT difference is, the Russians want to have a free go around Crimea and are not causing social, political and possibly economic issues to the EU, whereas Turkey, who is being in the grey zone due to 'helping finance ISIS' and murdering kurds now openly extorts money from EU because they know that EU can't cope with another wave of 2mil muslim migrants.

 

The Spring is near....

 

Russia likes to cause possible social, political and economic issues in EU,

 

Russia is also in grey zone because of similar issues that Turkey has, which is why there are economical and political sanctions against them.

 

Also Russia has enough migrants to pose similar threat as Turkey and even greater as they don't need to take account what they military allies say like Turkey.

 

 

Yes, Russians like to have their say and they like to support more right winged parties within EU (see various CEE countries and some factions and personal ties in other countries - France, Germany), but aside of that, how are they actually able to cause social and economic issues?

 

Do you want to tell me that there is is 4mil Russians waiting on the border to invade and destabilize EU countries with vastly different cultural habits and social benefits claims?

 

The economical and political sanctions Russia earned for being too stupid to consent with the Crimea in UA and pushed their little green men in eastern Ukraine for some dumb reason. They get more troubles from Oil being low than the sanctions though.

 

 

They cause social issue by letting hundreds/thousands of immigrants without any papers through their boarder checks every day. They also employ people to post social media sites, comments sections and forums all sort miss information, to weaken people's trust towards information that they get from such and news.

 

They also can cause economical issues with their gas and oil trade and blocking stuff from their markets and controlling where Russian go on vacations (which has major economical issues for quite lot of European countries.)

 

There is millions immigrants in Russia and they are willing to sent them over borders (they have now done so for couple months for Norway and Finland) (They are same sort of people [syrians Iraqis, Iranians, Somalis, etc]. that Turkey has)

 

Low oil prices hurt Russia because of the sanctions, they could live with one, but both things at same time hurt them quite lot and they can't do anything for oil price so they want those sanctions gone (and they have been quite direct about this in negotiations with out ministers in past months)

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Darkpriest

Darkpriest

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I am not sure where you get the first part from, about thousands of migrants, but i'd like to know. As far as i know they are rather reluctant in letting people go through their borders. They have enough issues in their own country without importing the new ones from the south.

 

As far as the employing people on the social media etc. it goes for EVERYONE.... i mean literally everyone. it goes from every political party, every country and even your common business corporations in IT, telecom, etc. They do not need to discredit various political news outlets, they are doing a mighty fine job themeselves with things like New Years Eve attacks in Germany, or Sweden or any other country for that matter.

 

As for oil and gas.... think for a moment... what exactly would they do if they would stop trading with EU countries. Who would that hurt more in the long run? They are not stupid, they can count money.

 

The only issues I;ve heard of related to migrants is in relation to Finland and Russians even helping those refugees to get there and cross border.

 

I;d say oil prices are the main issue. The economy was literally riding on oil and gas business. Russian oil tech is not that great and the costs of oil productions is fairly high.

 

While they suffer from the cut off to various markets (mainly the financial one) it is the oil and gas which are the main catalysts, and for the middle class of Russians things like problems with travel and and spending their money in attractive tourists places.

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Elerond

Elerond

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Posted

They have now let hundreds/thousands immigrants without any documentation through their borders to Finland every day for couple months. We currently get much more illegal immigrants from Russia than we get from Sweden, Germany etc. places.

 

And it is currently one of the biggest problems that our government has.

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Zoraptor

Zoraptor

Posted
Posted (edited)

Right, and Finland has no border controls themselves, with Russia? I find that rather hard to believe, personally. If it is, according to the EU, Greece's fault that so many migrants are entering there then it's surely Finland's fault for not defending their/ your borders as well, after all. I can only imagine the EU is going to start giving Russia money and trying to get them to join the EU soon, wonder where they got the impression that transiting refugees would give them leverage from...

 

Typical westerners, complain when Russians build a wall to keep people in, then complain when they don't.

 

More complicated than that of course and the issue has aspects that cover both morality (heh) and the cold reality of international politics, but the basic fact is that Russia is not the EU's friend so has no obligation to stop refugees, indeed they would have been criticised for doing so even up until very recently, and has motivation to be obnoxious and disruptive. Turkey on the other hand supposedly is the EU's friend, a member of their military alliance and a prospective actual member of the union which at least theoretically does give them obligations. Nobody really wants refugees- including one suspects, Merkel, at this point- and realpolitik dictates they'll be used to maximum advantage. It does also show why rewarding Turkey for encouraging refugee flow is a stupid idea, anyone could see that it would then encourage others to do the same.

 

But when it comes right down to it it's your borders, ultimately it's you who are responsible for who crosses them. That may be a country specific you or the generalised you of the EU as a whole but either way border control is a basic responsibility of government, expecting others to act as your border police is pretty naive.

Edited by Zoraptor
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Elerond

Elerond

Posted
Posted (edited)

Right, and Finland has no border controls themselves, with Russia? I find that rather hard to believe, personally. If it is, according to the EU, Greece's fault that so many migrants are entering there then it's surely Finland's fault for not defending their/ your borders as well, after all. I can only imagine the EU is going to start giving Russia money and trying to get them to join the EU soon, wonder where they got the impression that transiting refugees would give them leverage from...

 

 

Finland has boarder control that stops those illegal immigrants that then seek refugee and they are sent in refugee centers.

 

EDIT: If Finland boarder control would let people go over boarder without proper documentation then you can be sure that Russian government would be upset about it and probably wouldn't just be content just complain and negotiate about it. 

Edited by Elerond
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Zoraptor

Zoraptor

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Posted (edited)

The Russians would just send them back/ refuse to accept them most likely- as they've done with some of those Norway has tried to return. It's not like you have Russian border controls on one side of the border and empty space on the Finnish side or vice versa after all, border controls are reciprocal and you have posts on both sides of the border. Saying that the Russians should refuse them exit when you subsequently don't refuse them entry is a rather... specious argument. Russia has no reason to refuse them exit so they're free to leave, it's your (EU/ Finland) choice to then allow refugees access- if they tried it with China or, heh, North Korea they'd wouldn't be allowed in no matter if Russia was happy for them to leave.

Edited by Zoraptor
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Elerond

Elerond

Posted
Posted (edited)

The Russians would just send them back/ refuse to accept them most likely- as they've done with some of those Norway has tried to return. It's not like you have Russian border controls on one side of the border and empty space on the Finnish side or vice versa after all, border controls are reciprocal and you have posts on both sides of the border. Saying that the Russians should refuse them exit when you subsequently don't refuse them entry is a rather... specious argument. Russia has no reason to refuse them exit so they're free to leave, it's your (EU/ Finland) choice to then allow refugees access- if they tried it with China or, heh, North Korea they'd wouldn't be allowed in no matter if Russia was happy for them to leave.

 

They may try it, but it is not as easy as one would think to return person that don't want to be returned. But if situation don't change Finland will close it Russian boarder, which will case incident between Russia and Finland.

 

And Finnish and Russian boarder check aren't actually next each other on those northern boarder stations

 

raja-google-maps.png?psid=1

 

Meaning that there is actually empty space that people cross than they go from one check to another.

Edited by Elerond
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Zoraptor

Zoraptor

Posted
Posted

They don't have to be cheek by jowl style right next to each, point is obviously that you don't have a solely Russian border crossing into Finland- if there's a Russian border post then there's a corresponding Finnish one on the other side of the border.

 

It's not that I am without sympathy*, though it is certainly more limited than the sympathy for somewhere like Jordan or Lebanon which are impoverished themselves, have a small population yet are coping with a million plus refugees apiece. But at the end of the day you (collective you) have to be responsible for who gets in and out of your country, that's a basic requirement of modern governance. If you aren't happy with the status quo then change the rules or stop accepting those you don't want. Deflecting the blame onto others and saying that they should do something about your problem is just going to get a 'no u' response from them, per both Russia and Turkey.

 

*I even have a fair amount of sympathy for Turkey so far as having to cope with refugees is concerned despite my dislike of a lot of their broadly related policies.

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Elerond

Elerond

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Posted (edited)

I agree that at the end of the day it is countries own responsibility to control their own borders, but conversations was about Turkey's tactic to ask money or they will not do anything to prevent people illegally crossing borders and that I told that Turkey is not alone with such tactic.

 

Also such tactics put strain on political relationships with countries effected by such tactic even such extent that they may be forced to use extreme measures (like closing border down entirely) that will do even more harm to all sort of relationships between said countries. And that I am pretty sure that Turkey, Russia or any other country using said tactic would not be happy if they were on receiving end of such tactic.

 

Also such tactics put international conventions under pressure and may force countries to break them (like start not accepting asylum seekers etc.), which in my opinion is not good thing in long run.

Edited by Elerond
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obyknven

obyknven

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Posted

Some German woman participate in Ukrainian civil war  on East-Ukrainian side.

http://en.voicesevas.ru/news/analytics/2807-interview-with-german-journalist-margaret-seidler.html

 

seidler.jpg

 

Here she laughing about German men who even don't try protect their women from rapists. By her words it's result of German education system - German men are so helpless now, they even can't named as men  anymore.

https://gloria.tv/media/LeKEZWkq8pb

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BruceVC

BruceVC

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Local 17 year old girl was gangraped by 7 Iraqis.

 

Local shariah court absolved them because she was kafir.

Links?

"Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss”

John Milton 

"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” -  George Bernard Shaw

"What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela

 

 

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Drowsy Emperor

Drowsy Emperor

Posted
Posted (edited)

Local 17 year old girl was gangraped by 7 Iraqis.

 

Local shariah court absolved them because she was kafir.

 

Where was this? I presume Iraq but the local part is confusing me

Edited by Drowsy Emperor

И погибе Српски кнез Лазаре,
И његова сва изгибе војска, 
Седамдесет и седам иљада;
Све је свето и честито било
И миломе Богу приступачно.

 

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Elerond

Elerond

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Posted

I found these articles, which match in number of rapists and victims age. No mention about shariah court and they say that two of the attackers were citizens of Belgium (which of course don't necessary mean that they don't have Iraqi background). Both papers' source seem to be RT that they say has based their article on Belgian news articles. But anyway because of this both articles have high change of getting their facts wrong (also as magazines they aren't known to care much about facts if story is such that it sells)

 

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/6910086/Five-migrants-among-7-young-men-who-laughed-danced-and-sang-in-Arabic-as-they-gang-raped-unconscious-girl-of-17.html

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3433782/Police-probing-radicalised-teenager-Belgium-video-five-Iraqi-migrants-gang-raping-drunk-girl-fell-unconscious-party.html

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