European Refugee Crisis : Part 2

[Barothmuk]

And now we are counted to be part of evil west that has done terrible things to other nations in past and apologize those acts, which is totally fair and all.

There is a trend of reducing privilege theory's "In X society you as member of race Y have racial privilege over race Z" to simply "You are of Western descent so I'll assume you and your ancestors were well off middle to upper class white people."

 

I blame Americans.

 

 

For what it's worth mine (afaik) were British convicts and Australian Aboriginals

 

[Drowsy Emperor]

Hmmmm

 

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-12-02/hungary-s-orban-says-germany-struck-secret-turkey-refugee-deal

 

uhmmmm

 

Frankly, the behavior of the entire EU "elite", barring people like Orban, has been utterly bizarre, during this whole crisis.

[HoonDing]

This talk of Finland reminds me

 

[Drowsy Emperor]

Interesting to see how acutely aware he was of everything that was going on, yet still couldn't resist pushing the Russian self-destruct button.

[BruceVC]

Interesting to see how acutely aware he was of everything that was going on, yet still couldn't resist pushing the Russian self-destruct button.

We like Russia Drowsy....but they need to act in a more reasonable way ..like not annexing Crimea 

[Elerond]

 

Interesting to see how acutely aware he was of everything that was going on, yet still couldn't resist pushing the Russian self-destruct button.

We like Russia Drowsy....but they need to act in a more reasonable way ..like not annexing Crimea 

 

 

Are you suggesting that Hitler attacked to Soviet Union because he foresee that in future when Soviet Union has broken down Russia will try to annex Crimea from Ukraine even though it was not at point of time even part of Ukraine, as it was transfered from Russia (Russian Soviet Federative Socialist Republic) to Ukraine (Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic) after the war?        

[Drowsy Emperor]

His algorithm is just broken

[BruceVC]

 

 

Interesting to see how acutely aware he was of everything that was going on, yet still couldn't resist pushing the Russian self-destruct button.

We like Russia Drowsy....but they need to act in a more reasonable way ..like not annexing Crimea 

 

 

Are you suggesting that Hitler attacked to Soviet Union because he foresee that in future when Soviet Union has broken down Russia will try to annex Crimea from Ukraine even though it was not at point of time even part of Ukraine, as it was transfered from Russia (Russian Soviet Federative Socialist Republic) to Ukraine (Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic) after the war?        

 

Are you making a joke ...you never make jokes 

[Darkpriest]

well, this is one of the first outcomes of failed EU politics towards its eastern states, while preferring to take care of ME and North Africa:

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/polands-disturbing-tilt-to-the-right/2015/11/29/480341e0-952a-11e5-8aa0-5d0946560a97_story.html

[BruceVC]

well, this is one of the first outcomes of failed EU politics towards its eastern states, while preferring to take care of ME and North Africa:

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/polands-disturbing-tilt-to-the-right/2015/11/29/480341e0-952a-11e5-8aa0-5d0946560a97_story.html

I prefer getting views from people who actually live  in Poland before I comment than to automatically believe what an American newspaper says ?

[Darkpriest]

 

well, this is one of the first outcomes of failed EU politics towards its eastern states, while preferring to take care of ME and North Africa:

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/polands-disturbing-tilt-to-the-right/2015/11/29/480341e0-952a-11e5-8aa0-5d0946560a97_story.html

I prefer getting views from people who actually live  in Poland before I comment than to automatically believe what an American newspaper says ?

 

 

So I can tell you that right now. I am in Poland for the last 3 months, and the only thing which is a bit colorized is this one:

 

'''''''''''''''

Kaczynski, like Hungary’s Viktor Orban, is the product of an ugly pre-World War II populism, frozen and preserved through the communist era, that mixes xenophobia, anti-Semitism, right-wing Catholicism and autocratic impulses.

''''''''''''''''

 

because pre WW2 Poland was fairly mixed in terms of east EU cultures and had a very high populace of jews, I think it was the largest in the world (maybe 2nd behind USA) and they were mostly respected. It's the WW2 and comunism era that turned that around (a lot has to do with Polish higher class being entirely desintegrated in both Nazi and Soviet camps, and majority of middle class being killed and dispersed)

 

As sad as it sounds, the rest of the article is accurate.

Edited December 2, 2015 by Darkpriest

[BruceVC]

 

 

well, this is one of the first outcomes of failed EU politics towards its eastern states, while preferring to take care of ME and North Africa:

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/polands-disturbing-tilt-to-the-right/2015/11/29/480341e0-952a-11e5-8aa0-5d0946560a97_story.html

I prefer getting views from people who actually live  in Poland before I comment than to automatically believe what an American newspaper says ?

 

 

So I can tell you that right now. I am in Poland for the last 3 months, and the only thing which is a bit colorized is this one:

 

'''''''''''''''

Kaczynski, like Hungary’s Viktor Orban, is the product of an ugly pre-World War II populism, frozen and preserved through the communist era, that mixes xenophobia, anti-Semitism, right-wing Catholicism and autocratic impulses.

''''''''''''''''

 

because pre WW2 Poland was fairly mixed in terms of east EU cultures and had a very high populace of jews, I think it was the largest in the world (maybe 2nd behind USA) and they were mostly respected. It's the WW2 and comunism era that turn that around (a lot has to do with Polish higher class being entirely desintegrated in both Nazi and Soviet camps, and majority of middle class being killed and dispersed)

 

As sad as it sounds, the rest of the article is accurate.

 

Oh...okay. I didn't know that...why have you been so secretive about where you live, Poland is a success story? 

[Barothmuk]

As I understand it 1930's Poland was incredibly anti-Semitic.

[Darkpriest]

Because for the last 8-10 years I've barely been in Poland, and I know that a lot of people have various prejudice about the whole CEE region and on top of that about various countries in there.

Edited December 2, 2015 by Darkpriest

[Darkpriest]

As I understand it 1930's Poland was incredibly anti-Semitic.

 

From the founding of the Kingdom of Poland in 1025 through to the early years of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth created in 1569, Poland was the most tolerant country in Europe.^[5] Known as paradisus Iudaeorum (Latin for "Paradise for the Jews"), it became a shelter for persecuted and expelled European Jewish communities and the home to the world's largest Jewish community of the time.

 

Still, as Poland regained independence in the aftermath of World War I, it was the center of the European Jewish world with one of world's largest Jewish communities of over 3 million. Antisemitism was a growing problem throughout Europe in those years, from both the political establishment and the general population.^[12]

 

full thing in here:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_Poland

 

There were some clashes and misunderstandings, but if it would have been incredibly anti-semitic, the populace would not grow by 500k of jewish migrants between 1921 and 1938.

Edited December 2, 2015 by Darkpriest

[Barothmuk]

full thing in here:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_Poland

From the same article

 

An ever-increasing proportion of Jews in interwar Poland lived separate lives from the Polish majority. In 1921, 74.2% of Polish Jews listed Yiddish or Hebrew as their native language; the number rose to 87% by 1931,[80] resulting in growing tensions between Jews and Poles.[84] Jews were often not identified as Polish nationals, a problem caused not only by the reversal of assimilation shown in national censuses between 1921 and 1931, but also by the influx of Russian Jews escaping persecution—especially in Ukraine, where up to 2,000 pogroms took place during the Civil War, an estimated 30,000 Jews were massacred directly, and a total of 150,000 died.

 

...

 

Matters improved for a time under the rule of Józef Piłsudski (1926–1935), who opposed antisemitism. However, a combination of various factors, including the Great Depression, meant that the situation of Jewish Poles was never very satisfactory, and it deteriorated again after Piłsudski's death in May 1935, which many Jews regarded as a tragedy. With the influence of the Endecja party growing, antisemitism gathered new momentum in Poland and was most felt in smaller towns and in spheres in which Jews came into direct contact with Poles, such as in Polish schools or on the sports field. Further academic harassment, such as the introduction of ghetto benches, which forced Jewish students to sit in sections of the lecture halls reserved exclusively for them, anti-Jewish riots, and semi-official or unofficial quotas (Numerus clausus) introduced in 1937 in some universities, halved the number of Jews in Polish universities between independence (1918) and the late 1930s. The restrictions were so inclusive that, while Jews made up 20.4% of the student population in 1928, by 1937 their share was down to only 7.5%.

 

Although many Jews were educated, they were excluded from most of the relevant occupations, including the government bureaucracy ... Complex and long history shaped Polish attitudes towards the Jews and Jewish attitudes towards the Poles, but the anti-Jewish sentiment in Poland had reached its zenith in the years leading to the Second World War.[98] Between 1935 and 1937 seventy-nine Jews were killed and 500 injured in anti-Jewish incidents.[99] National policy was such that jobless Jews, who largely worked at home or in small shops due to discrimination in employment, were excluded from welfare benefits.

Which basically fits my very basic understanding of early 20th century Pole-Jew relations.

[BruceVC]

Because for the last 8-10 years I've barely been in Poland, and I know that a lot of people of various prejudice about the whole CEE region and on top of that about various countries in there.

Dude....seriously? Poland suffered from hyperinflation after the USSR collapsed and yet Poland transformed itself. Poland is considered a success story. Who would be prejudiced against Poland ....sorry but I don't understand all the EU historical bias   

[Darkpriest]

Can't argue with that (the 1935-1939 period), but then again Great depression gave birth to worse things, like Nazism, and it still was better than other EU countries, hence Jews migrated to USA. It's fairly natural that populism will be looking for easy solutions regarding worsening living conditions to find the guilty ones of it.

 

Sad, but still it should not overshadow the general history. The worst thing in all this, that the current leaders of the ruling faction think of Pilsudski as the shining example, yet they missstep in so many areas he was good at, for example the case of anti-semitism.

Edited December 2, 2015 by Darkpriest

[Darkpriest]

 

Because for the last 8-10 years I've barely been in Poland, and I know that a lot of people of various prejudice about the whole CEE region and on top of that about various countries in there.

Dude....seriously? Poland suffered from hyperinflation after the USSR collapsed and yet Poland transformed itself. Poland is considered a success story. Who would be prejudiced against Poland ....sorry but I don't understand all the EU historical bias   

 

 

Well, we would have to start with the fall of Roman empire and all the later conflicts that shaped the map of Europe until the last balkan conflict in 1990s. that's around 1 600 years of history Bruce

[Elerond]

 

Because for the last 8-10 years I've barely been in Poland, and I know that a lot of people of various prejudice about the whole CEE region and on top of that about various countries in there.

Dude....seriously? Poland suffered from hyperinflation after the USSR collapsed and yet Poland transformed itself. Poland is considered a success story. Who would be prejudiced against Poland ....sorry but I don't understand all the EU historical bias   

 

 

Poorer people from richer EU countries that see Poles as cheaper competitors on same jobs, which is not unfounded as it is not uncommon to see polish metal workers, builders, welders etc. to be hired build things in richer EU countries, because they are cheaper than local craftsmen with same skills.

[BruceVC]

 

 

Because for the last 8-10 years I've barely been in Poland, and I know that a lot of people of various prejudice about the whole CEE region and on top of that about various countries in there.

Dude....seriously? Poland suffered from hyperinflation after the USSR collapsed and yet Poland transformed itself. Poland is considered a success story. Who would be prejudiced against Poland ....sorry but I don't understand all the EU historical bias   

 

 

Poorer people from richer EU countries that see Poles as cheaper competitors on same jobs, which is not unfounded as it is not uncommon to see polish metal workers, builders, welders etc. to be hired build things in richer EU countries, because they are cheaper than local craftsmen with same skills.

 

Yes I am aware of the view from some citizens from old Europe where citizens from East European countries are not as clever as them...its insulting and offensive' and  I'm surprised anyone would believe it 

 

That is why I said to alum I wasn't insulting the whole country 

[Darkpriest]

 

 

Because for the last 8-10 years I've barely been in Poland, and I know that a lot of people of various prejudice about the whole CEE region and on top of that about various countries in there.

Dude....seriously? Poland suffered from hyperinflation after the USSR collapsed and yet Poland transformed itself. Poland is considered a success story. Who would be prejudiced against Poland ....sorry but I don't understand all the EU historical bias   

 

 

Poorer people from richer EU countries that see Poles as cheaper competitors on same jobs, which is not unfounded as it is not uncommon to see polish metal workers, builders, welders etc. to be hired build things in richer EU countries, because they are cheaper than local craftsmen with same skills.

 

 

It's not uncommon that they will get even better quality for less cost. With more opened borders that is one of a factors why a lot of companies are willing to move their Offshore operations or Shared Service units to Poland.

 

Even though they will pay more in Poland than lets say in Mauritius or India, they will get significantly higher quality in terms of accuracy, deadlines etc.

 

There are already big corps moving their operations from lets say Ireland, which was a success kid in 90s. I think IBM is the most notable example.

Edited December 2, 2015 by Darkpriest

[Darkpriest]

Yeah, but back on topic, these kind of changes might be induced among more countries in the EU, and it will happen mainly due to failed immigrant policies and disregarding the needs of own less wealthy and less educated population in favor of immigrants.

 

We need to remember that in democracy each vote has the same power and it is easier to manipulate people who are relatively poor and uneducated. This is why I worry that another big economic crisis will just collapse the EU even to the state of after Great Depression in 30s of 20th century, but this time instead of jews we will have muslims, but unlike the times of WW2 muslims have their own countries which are very protective of their brothers in faith. We also cannot forsee right now how the internal conflics will go, when the immigrants have more kids, and have them earlier than more secular native europeans.

 

In addition, immigrants strongly entrenched in their cultural values and religion are willing to go further in defense of their way of life, than more lenient eu society, which after the period of 2 world wars and the cold war is trying to stay away from any conflicts as far as possible unless forcefully drawn into them, and even then only for the least amount of time needed for it to die out in the public perception. This makes us fairly poor at dealing with internal threats.

Edited December 2, 2015 by Darkpriest

[Elerond]

 

 

 

Because for the last 8-10 years I've barely been in Poland, and I know that a lot of people of various prejudice about the whole CEE region and on top of that about various countries in there.

Dude....seriously? Poland suffered from hyperinflation after the USSR collapsed and yet Poland transformed itself. Poland is considered a success story. Who would be prejudiced against Poland ....sorry but I don't understand all the EU historical bias   

 

 

Poorer people from richer EU countries that see Poles as cheaper competitors on same jobs, which is not unfounded as it is not uncommon to see polish metal workers, builders, welders etc. to be hired build things in richer EU countries, because they are cheaper than local craftsmen with same skills.

 

 

It's not uncommon that they will get even better quality for less cost. With more opened borders that is one of a factors why a lot of companies are willing to move their Offshore operations or Shared Service units to Poland.

 

Even though they will pay more in Poland than lets say in Mauritius or India, they will get significantly higher quality in terms of accuracy, deadlines etc.

 

 

Better quality is debatable thing, but cheaper it is. Like for example they use Polish welders to weld accumulators, steel webs to reactor building, steel linings in Nuclear Power plant building site here in Finland and now that nuclear plant is 6 years late and estimated to be 9 years late before its ready because failures in welds. And estimated price has rose from 3.2 billion euros to over 9 billion euros. But of course one can put blame only or at all for the workers but ****ty management and leadership of Areva.

 

To note that Finland has world class welders, which is why we are able get so many of those billions of dollars worth luxury ship building contracts, build world largest oil drilling pipes for oceanic use etc.. So it isn't that they couldn't find people with good workmanship from local worker pool, but they just decided not to do so.

 

Also to note those weld failures aren't only thing that have failed in that god-forsaken nuclear plant. So purpose of this post is not to say that Polish workers do ****ty job, but projects like that Olkiluoto 3 nuclear plant is why quite lot of people have bad picture of them, as they are mostly hired to construction sites that try cut costs everywhere, which usually leads to circumventing building codes and produce buildings that have inherit failures in them, because contractors safe in materials and time-consuming stages.

 

The main thing that causes grudge with local workers is that they ability to compete with Polish/Estonian/etc. countries workers is very limited and self hurting, as they live in countries that have much higher cost of living and those laborers from cheaper countries come only to do that specific job and then they go back to their home country with cheaper cost of living which means that they can ask much lower salary and not hurt their ability to live decently where local labor don't have such luxury. This is also the thing that causes most grudge in people about free movement inside of EU (if you don't count current refugee crisis and terrorist threat).

[Darkpriest]

Can't argue with the above, I don't deal with any type of construction business (especially when it combines all of Baltic states and Poland in one basket), so I have to trust you on this one. I can only tell what I see from perspective of finance and some other bigger global corporations.

Edited December 2, 2015 by Darkpriest