Attacks in Paris

[BruceVC]

@Bruce

 

Not directly, but we certainly screwed up middle east and north Africa to give a nice feeding and growing ground for such organizations...

 

Imagine if we did not touch Saddam's iraq, Gaddafi's Libya, Assad's Syria, etc. there would be no ISIS, EVER. We would have no refugee problems.

 

On another note, if EU was smart 30-50y ago about immigrants from North Africa and ME we would not have ghettos, assimilation problems, etc.

 

Economic need for cheap work force drove those decisions and now you have problems with communities alienating themselves from the State/Nation they live in.

Okay so here is the interesting thing about your prediction, its actually much harder to predict than you may think

 

Why do I say that? The Arab Spring would have still happened but Saddam would have still been President in Iraq...he would have  used force on any opposing political movements but the political uprisings in Syria and Libya would still have happened and yes I agree that ISIS  wouldnt be as effective or in its current form as we can't say with certainty that the Iraq Sunnis would have joined ISIS

 

But important lessons have been learnt from both Iraq and Libya. The West can assist militarily to overthrow a dictator but preferably not with ground troops and there must be a clear understanding or agreement that the West cannot be blamed for governments that fail, yes the West can assist with guidance around political decisions but this must be seen as something that is asked for and not just imposed. So in Libya the West provided air support but it was the Libyan rebels who did the hard fighting and were the ones that executed Gadafi. The new Libyan government didnt want the West interfering in there new government and the West really didn't  want to get involved on that level

 

So they left the country in the hands of new Libyan government ...yes sadly this failed for a number of reasons but I would assume mostly due  to inexperience in understanding how to run a country but also due to the expectations of certain Libyan tribes who now had free reign. I don't blame the West for this? Why would you 

[Mamoulian War]

I asked the question to you. He answered it with 1 point which is completely wrong. I live here, and I am old enough to remember communism. As you noticed, I have said nothing about point 1 and 2 which are seen by not as many people in east europe the same way, but that is more about the cultural background and different way how are these things thought in schools across europe and both sides of this view are actually true enough, that trying to fight each other for which view is the correct one is exercise in pure futility.

 

But as I said. No one has the right to educate me how 1989 happend here, unless he was a part of it. My views towards the west are not very far away from your in all honesty. One of the reaons is, that my income is at the level of average Austrian. But as I said, I will never cease to critize what is wrong in the western world, as my family never ceased to critized what was wrong in soviet world, despite being persecuted. That's why we have free speech in the first place don't we?

 

I have described you, how things are looking here, and why general Slovak populace will always be more friendly towards Russia than towards west.

 

But another point is that it is kinf of sad that neither of these other two valid points of "positive" western influence to other countries, which he presented as his examples, are younger than 60 years.

 

The point number 3 is completely wrong and does not have anything to do with the actual reality.

 

The issue many in the rest of the world are not able to understand, that in the newly joined EU countries is rampant Eurofunds Mafia, which controls flow of all the money and even if you would like to have your own business, they will drive you to the ground, because they see you as the competition which may in closer future weaken their power and position...

Edited November 15, 2015 by Mamoulian War

[Darkpriest]

 

@Bruce

 

Not directly, but we certainly screwed up middle east and north Africa to give a nice feeding and growing ground for such organizations...

 

Imagine if we did not touch Saddam's iraq, Gaddafi's Libya, Assad's Syria, etc. there would be no ISIS, EVER. We would have no refugee problems.

 

On another note, if EU was smart 30-50y ago about immigrants from North Africa and ME we would not have ghettos, assimilation problems, etc.

 

Economic need for cheap work force drove those decisions and now you have problems with communities alienating themselves from the State/Nation they live in.

Okay so here is the interesting thing about your prediction, its actually much harder to predict than you may think

 

Why do I say that? The Arab Spring would have still happened but Saddam would have still been President in Iraq...he would have  used force on any opposing political movements but the political uprisings in Syria and Libya would still have happened and yes I agree that ISIS  wouldnt be as effective or in its current form as we can't say with certainty that the Iraq Sunnis would have joined ISIS

 

But important lessons have been learnt from both Iraq and Libya. The West can assist militarily to overthrow a dictator but preferably not with ground troops and there must be a clear understanding or agreement that the West cannot be blamed for governments that fail, yes the West can assist with guidance around political decisions but this must be seen as something that is asked for and not just imposed. So in Libya the West provided air support but it was the Libyan rebels who did the hard fighting and were the ones that executed Gadafi. The new Libyan government didnt want the West interfering in there new government and the West really didn't  want to get involved on that level

 

So they left the country in the hands of new Libyan government ...yes sadly this failed for a number of reasons but I would assume mostly due  to inexperience in understanding how to run a country but also due to the expectations of certain Libyan tribes who now had free reign. I don't blame the West for this? Why would you 

 

 

Airstrikes and arming rebels is a BIG deal, especially when airstrikes destroy your infrastructure. Without that they would never succeed. They also KNEW before hand that they will receive the support because of the events in Egypt. But in Egypt, West did not intervene, and after a failed experiment with elected representatives, the military there simple seized the power. In Libya there was no chance for this, because our airstrikes destroyed the whole military infrastructure making it non-existent and non factor.

 

Again and again, you do not recognize what drove people in particular regions. The "rebels" never were a single united entity with one goal and one set of values, and that alone should light the bulb in the head that you DO NOT go there... but the temptation of controlling oil fields there was too strong.

 

In Iraq if you would not remove Saddam, there would be no issues with various groups fighting for power. Saddam was a Sunni leader but not zealous, in a country where majority is a Shia muslim. But again, the oil fields of Iraq were too big of a possible asset to pass up, so we go there in name of democracy, a concept which is alien in that part of the world or even despised since ancient greece times, and then we are amazed that variosu groups there fight for power, when we demolish the whole structures of the state.

 

You presented before an example of Slovakia and Poland, etc. it was not the West that won anything over there. In fact it was a few decades of internal protests, bloody quellings, loss of life due to secret police and eventually inefficiency and corruption of that state structures that allowed large masses of people to unite around core values that were cultivated there long before USA even existed. (elected monarchy, strong provincial rights and representation in an early form of parliment or even first written constitution in Europe - all these things were in Poland not sure about Slovakia because Slovakia If I recall correctly was never a really separate state before 1990s and I am not that big of a history nerd to dig in Hungary/Austrian/Czech history to dig for references regarding Slovakia)

 

Additionally it happened that USSR had own internal re-organization at that time and a leader who was less militant than his predecesors. If he was like the guys before him we would porbably had USSR army roling into Poland in 1980s and we would most likely still see USSR and Warsaw Pact on a map in 1990s.

 

Western counties did absolute ZERO to help in those countries. Aside of some words of comfort and disapproval of various practices.

Edited November 15, 2015 by Darkpriest

[Malcador]

 

 

 

 

Political aptitude test score: 0.

Please tell me more what would happen in my own country, because i obviously don't know anything about it.

If you think that Chechnya achieving independence under the guise of Islamic liberation would have had no effect on other homogenous islamic regions then you have no idea how politics work, and those principles apply not only to Russia, but anywhere else.

At a basic level you don't let sections of your country secede whatever their identity is. Sets a bad example.

[Namutree]

You might laughed and taking what i wrote as 'conspiracy theory", but my prohet already talking about what those crazy conspiracy teorists are talking about...they are called "Khawarij"...and they are the agent of The Anti-Christ or we called Al Masih Dajjal, or the One Eyed Messiah

 

There is no, "Anti-Christ", no "Al Masih Daijal", and no reason to trouble yourself with superstitious nonsense. You'd be better served worrying about what is real than one-eyed imaginary monsters.

[Darkpriest]

Apparently this whole mess empowered Putin.

 

Already during the Obama Putin meeting Americans moved forward towards joint operation in Syria, which means including Asad in the process, it also forced EU to co-operative stance with Russians (Sarkozy in France voicing this, but most importantly chief of EU Foreign relations Ms. Federica Mogherini), so we might soon see embargo being removed and Ukraine Eastern part being traded in the process for joint security operations around middle east.

Edited November 15, 2015 by Darkpriest

[Drowsy Emperor]

If the west wasn't so obsessed with removing Putin and puttin' another Yeltsin in charge of Russia, a lot of this would have never come to pass and they'd have an ally instead of an enemy. 

 

But then, if the foreign policy of Germany and France is going to be decided in Washington, then they deserve no better than what's coming to them. 

[Sakai]

If the west wasn't so obsessed with removing Putin and puttin' another Yeltsin in charge of Russia, a lot of this would have never come to pass and they'd have an ally instead of an enemy. 

 

But then, if the foreign policy of Germany and France is going to be decided in Washington, then they deserve no better than what's coming to them. 

Interesting. And how exactly the west is planning to remove him? Assassination?

Edited November 15, 2015 by Sakai

[Darkpriest]

 

If the west wasn't so obsessed with removing Putin and puttin' another Yeltsin in charge of Russia, a lot of this would have never come to pass and they'd have an ally instead of an enemy. 

 

But then, if the foreign policy of Germany and France is going to be decided in Washington, then they deserve no better than what's coming to them. 

Interesting. And how exactly the west is planning to remove him? Assassination?

 

 

Nah, making life so hard for regular russians, due to various embargos, that they would remove him from power themselves.

[Sakai]

 

 

If the west wasn't so obsessed with removing Putin and puttin' another Yeltsin in charge of Russia, a lot of this would have never come to pass and they'd have an ally instead of an enemy. 

 

But then, if the foreign policy of Germany and France is going to be decided in Washington, then they deserve no better than what's coming to them. 

Interesting. And how exactly the west is planning to remove him? Assassination?

 

 

Nah, making life so hard for regular russians, due to various embargos, that they would remove him from power themselves.

 

Well, as a russian, i can only thank the west for that. They're doing something useful for a change. Can't wait when he's finally gone. 

Edited November 15, 2015 by Sakai

[BruceVC]

Apparently this whole mess empowered Putin.

 

Already during the Obama Putin meeting Americans moved forward towards joint operation in Syria, which means including Asad in the process, it also forced EU to co-operative stance with Russians (Sarkozy in France voicing this, but most importantly chief of EU Foreign relations Ms. Federica Mogherini), so we might soon see embargo being removed and Ukraine Eastern part being traded in the process for joint security operations around middle east.

 

 

 

If the west wasn't so obsessed with removing Putin and puttin' another Yeltsin in charge of Russia, a lot of this would have never come to pass and they'd have an ally instead of an enemy. 

 

But then, if the foreign policy of Germany and France is going to be decided in Washington, then they deserve no better than what's coming to them. 

Interesting. And how exactly the west is planning to remove him? Assassination?

 

Guys we really have to be careful when we say " the West wants to remove Putin " ....yes Drowsy thinks its true but how arrogant  do you think the West is? Putin has an 80 % approval rating. The average Russian has real respect for what they see Putin has done for Russian pride 

 

In my opinion I think Putin has made some really good choices at restoring Russian pride but nowadays he has become very extremist around his distrust of what motivates the West. This has lead to the real slowdown in the Russian economy but its not because of the Western  sanctions, they have had an influence but its more because Russia did not do enough work at diversifying its economy. Putin assumed like Venezuela and  Iran that the oil price would always sit at a certain price, Russia needs the oil price to be at $100 

 

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/11/20/opec-russia-idUSL6N0TA16P20141120#eYBGiYEMhAghWsWt.97

 

Now this miscalculation is a serious economic blunder and I'm not sure if the average Russian citizen realizes that the issue with there economy is caused primarily by this and not by the Western sanctions.This mistake is really on Putin. Despite what you guys think the West doesnt assume that somehow the Russian people are going to " vote Putin " out, once again you guys make assumptions about the general ignorance of what the West thinks sanctions will achieve 

 

The expected outcome from sanctions is generally not regime change but rather where a country on its own changes certain political choices because of the negative impact the sanctions have on the economy, sanctions work but they take time 

 

But as I mentioned Russia real issue is not the sanctions 

 

Now Dark back to your general post, it makes no sense to me? Its illogical as the West doesn't need Russia for joint security and there is no way they will drop Eastern Ukraine for security in Syria? Do you have a link

[obyknven]

 

 

 

If the west wasn't so obsessed with removing Putin and puttin' another Yeltsin in charge of Russia, a lot of this would have never come to pass and they'd have an ally instead of an enemy. 

 

But then, if the foreign policy of Germany and France is going to be decided in Washington, then they deserve no better than what's coming to them. 

Interesting. And how exactly the west is planning to remove him? Assassination?

 

 

Nah, making life so hard for regular russians, due to various embargos, that they would remove him from power themselves.

 

Well, as a russian, i can only thank the west for that. They're doing something useful for a change. Can't wait when he's finally gone. 

 

U mad bro. Because of sanctions all small and medium Russian businesses are  bankrupted - only  big corporations (who all are Putin's friends)  stay alive. Life of ordinary Russians become ****ty now, but power of Putin only has been increased from such Western hostile economical actions.  

[BruceVC]

 

 

 

If the west wasn't so obsessed with removing Putin and puttin' another Yeltsin in charge of Russia, a lot of this would have never come to pass and they'd have an ally instead of an enemy. 

 

But then, if the foreign policy of Germany and France is going to be decided in Washington, then they deserve no better than what's coming to them. 

Interesting. And how exactly the west is planning to remove him? Assassination?

 

 

Nah, making life so hard for regular russians, due to various embargos, that they would remove him from power themselves.

 

Well, as a russian, i can only thank the west for that. They're doing something useful for a change. Can't wait when he's finally gone. 

 

No the West doesnt want to remove Putin, they are  just looking for more reasonable political choices from Russia like not thinking they can just carve up Ukraine .....but I have enjoyed your view. I dont often get to chat to Russians, Fighter has provided me with some good insights but he doesn't  always comment and I always enjoy understanding what the views are of actual Russian citizens 

 

Also Dark and Mam War I also want to thank you for explaining your views in detail because its the same thing where I don't know much about what Eastern Europeans think about the West

 

And guys its not about us agreeing necessarily, this is a debate and we all have our own views but you have given me some new insights. Like the view of Slovakia towards the West 

[Sakai]

Guys we really have to be careful when we say " the West wants to remove Putin " ....yes Drowsy thinks its true but how arrogant  do you think the West is? Putin has an 80 % approval rating. The average Russian has real respect for what they see Putin has done for Russian pride 

This is not true AT ALL. These numbers are 100% phoney. Not to say that there aren't people like this, but they're not that common at all. Like for example whenever they do a pro-government rally, they actually have to force people to come, like students and government workers. Most people, like everywhere else i imagine, don't care one way or another. And there's a pretty significant portion (around 30% i guess) that actually hate Putin and what he had done with Russia. In fact, with the way things are right now, i'd say revolution, just like it was in Ukraine, is very much a possibility in the next 5-10 years. 

[HoonDing]

Putin is the last, best hope of humanity. How did it come to this?

[Qistina]

There is no, "Anti-Christ", no "Al Masih Daijal", and no reason to trouble yourself with superstitious nonsense. You'd be better served worrying about what is real than one-eyed imaginary monsters.

 

The prophet talk in non-literal manner, yes he prophecized the coming of One Eyed Messiah, the liar, the deceiver....but as we can see after 1437 years there is a group using One Eye symbol, and this symbol is everywhere and everyone talking about this...you can find this at the back of one USD...maybe the The Anti-Christ is not a person, maybe it is a system...but who know? The prophet talk to Arabs 1436 years ago, surely the people back then will not understand things as we in their future understand it...or maybe the Anti-Christ is a person controlling this system....so, we just wait and see...

 

Just ask yourself, where those ISIS got their fund?

 

They are driving new Toyota jips, fully armed, and how they run their so called "caliphate" without any business and political relation with any country and not producing anything? Even their supposed to be citizens are running away....

 

And ask this question to yourself, how they run their territories? They have to eat, where they get their food? They are human like us, surely they need this and that, where they get all the stuff they need? Why their bullets never run out, why their bombs never run out?

 

They are funded, by who?

 

The Anti-Christ, the One Eyed Messiah...MONEY, who own the world money?

Edited November 15, 2015 by Qistina

[Darkpriest]

Various ME rich sympathizers (probably even among Sauds), Turks having a blind eye on black market oil trade from ISIS, because they are in conflict with Kurds etc.

 

These are all simple politics, there is no supernational organization with evil people etc. leave that to James Bond movies. It's all a simple combination of various personal and national interests. Personal interests are driven usually by large corporations, where banking, oil&gas, pharmaceuticals are the three leading cores as they drive the global cash and wealth movements, and national interest are self explanatory. It's simple business and politics. It's been like this for at least 4000 years.

[Namutree]

 

There is no, "Anti-Christ", no "Al Masih Daijal", and no reason to trouble yourself with superstitious nonsense. You'd be better served worrying about what is real than one-eyed imaginary monsters.

 

The prophet talk in non-literal manner, yes he prophecized the coming of One Eyed Messiah, the liar, the deceiver.

Oh, non-literal. Never mind then.

[Qistina]

Where they get all these...? Those jips are shiny new, their banner must come from factories somewhere, printed, their gears and weapons must come from a source...how do they live? What they eat everyday? Their "caliphate" don't produce anything and have no business with anyone, how their people live? Don't do any work? How their territories run? Does anybody ever think about it?

 

Edited November 15, 2015 by Qistina

[BruceVC]

 

Guys we really have to be careful when we say " the West wants to remove Putin " ....yes Drowsy thinks its true but how arrogant  do you think the West is? Putin has an 80 % approval rating. The average Russian has real respect for what they see Putin has done for Russian pride 

This is not true AT ALL. These numbers are 100% phoney. Not to say that there aren't people like this, but they're not that common at all. Like for example whenever they do a pro-government rally, they actually have to force people to come, like students and government workers. Most people, like everywhere else i imagine, don't care one way or another. And there's a pretty significant portion (around 30% i guess) that actually hate Putin and what he had done with Russia. In fact, with the way things are right now, i'd say revolution, just like it was in Ukraine, is very much a possibility in the next 5-10 years. 

 

Thats interesting, we get told he is very popular and everyone thinks he is great 

 

You see your view is not common from Russians generally so once again thanks for sharing

[obyknven]

 

Guys we really have to be careful when we say " the West wants to remove Putin " ....yes Drowsy thinks its true but how arrogant  do you think the West is? Putin has an 80 % approval rating. The average Russian has real respect for what they see Putin has done for Russian pride 

This is not true AT ALL. These numbers are 100% phoney. Not to say that there aren't people like this, but they're not that common at all. Like for example whenever they do a pro-government rally, they actually have to force people to come, like students and government workers. Most people, like everywhere else i imagine, don't care one way or another. And there's a pretty significant portion (around 30% i guess) that actually hate Putin and what he had done with Russia. In fact, with the way things are right now, i'd say revolution, just like it was in Ukraine, is very much a possibility in the next 5-10 years. 

 

Lol. So much childish fantasy.  Loyalists from Army/Police/FSB just massacre all fools who try playing into "revolution".   

[Qistina]

They cannot run all these new things without OIL isn't it? Where they get their OIL...? Do you guys think gas stations are still operating in ISIS terrotory? Will Shell or Mobil oil tanks get in there doing business as usual filling up gas stations? If they do, what currency they use anyway?

 

[Volourn]

"America never have fair deal, no matter Republican or Democrat, though Democrat is more diplomatic, but they always hide a knife behind their smile..."

 

Yet you have the gall to accuse others/Westerns of ignorance, arrogance, and bigotry.  Trust me, Muslims are treated better in the West than  other religions are treated in Muslim dominated countries. hell, Muslims are treated better in Western countries than they are treated in Muslim countries. That says A LOT.

 

Also, I notice that you ignore when peopel show prove that you are a lair. Twoe xamples are calling  Europe a country (that be like calling Afrika a country) when it is a continent and your mistaken belief/lie that former President Bush lumps all Muslims in with extremist Islam in his speeches when he most certainly never did that. Again, from 9/11 on he always stressed the opposite. Someone even shared a video of it.

[Darkpriest]

Where they get all these...? Those jips are shiny new, their banner must come from factories somewhere, printed, their gears and weapons must come from a source...how do they live? What they eat everyday? Their "caliphate" don't produce anything and have no business with anyone, how their people live? Don't do any work? How their territories run? Does anybody ever think about it?

 

 

 

Obviously this has to be it

 

http://40.media.tumblr.com/c7180c2fdd0cda2a714b87714b631e74/tumblr_nxd59lv4x31sr8zk0o1_1280.jpg

 

I mean, I cant take any conspiracy theory seriously... I've been dining with some FM, mayors and COEs of local bank branches, I've been a senior manager in a multinational global corporation, now I am working for a certain investment bank, and I can assure you there are no supernational secret groups.

 

It's just simple money and politics behind the scenes, yes, but no Illuminati or w/e you call things that are good for James Bond movies.

 

I am sure that those guys got money from the trade of oil on black market, they get weapons from various criminal organizations from former USSR republics AND their sympathizers in the Middle East (looking at you Saudi Arabia)

 

They eat things they take from the localt population. do you think those areas are desolate and without any local populations? They have slave work force, they take around 9/10 of what people under their rule produce (those peopel who only live in their lands and did not join the ranks of ISIS)

 

as for oil, they take it from the instalations that they captured...

 

a lot of vehicles were captured form ineffective Iraqi forces and Syrian bases.

Edited November 15, 2015 by Darkpriest

[Gromnir]

 

They are funded, by who?

 

The Anti-Christ, the One Eyed Messiah...MONEY, who own the world money?

 

...

 

am sorry, but in our head we heard you add a xena war cry to punctuate that utterly ridiculous remark.

 

HA! Good Fun!