Zenbane Posted November 2, 2015 Posted November 2, 2015 In the earliest schisms in AD&D, it was easier to build a fighter for melee damage, due to only needing a high STR and having access to specialization. Paladins required a whole bunch of stats, but got auras and immunities. So yes, the 'roots' of the class are as a defensive tank. Not that that applies wholesale in POE. Exactly my experience. Surely this doesn't mean that PoE has to stick to cliche's or norms. However, when I read the patch notes for Fighters (and the logic behind it) then it seems that suddenly cliche's and norms become a focal point. Paladins are currently quite good, even with nerf. However, I feel it is really weird on lore side. Base deflection is due to training. Faith and Conviction is due to... well... faith and conviction. I feel strange that a kind of knight is less trained in defense than... a chanter. Is it a "lawful stupid" cliche where the dude run into monsters protected by his/her devotion ? I would have felt better if they had removed the deflection bonus from F&C instead. (And maybe buffed a bit other defenses) Even if the result is the same... Definitely agree on someone being protected by their devotion lol I would imagine that the only protection one would gain from this is when fighting against the Undead and Spirts (zombies, demons, etc). Traditionally, Paladins are better meat shields than Fighters, whereas Fighters are better DPS/Utility than Paladins. The offset to this (due to the fact that a player can build a Fighter to be a meat shield) is that Paladins get automatic offense/defense bonuses against the undead. This has been what saved Paladins from being completely useless in traditional RPG's. To be clear, I'm fine with the overall changes each patch makes to PoE. Clearly the goal of the developers is to enhance the gaming experience. In the end, it's a single player game where we can roll up a new PC at any point. Granted, PoE has an excellent replay factor all on its own; we don't need new patches with nerfs/buffs as a way of adding replay value
Elerond Posted November 2, 2015 Posted November 2, 2015 In the earliest schisms in AD&D, it was easier to build a fighter for melee damage, due to only needing a high STR and having access to specialization. Paladins required a whole bunch of stats, but got auras and immunities. So yes, the 'roots' of the class are as a defensive tank. Not that that applies wholesale in POE. Exactly my experience. Surely this doesn't mean that PoE has to stick to cliche's or norms. However, when I read the patch notes for Fighters (and the logic behind it) then it seems that suddenly cliche's and norms become a focal point. Inspiration for PoE's paladins is in D&D's warlords. Fighters were meant to be frontline crowd control super class, but that changed bit during development because people wanted that fighters should also be able to deal damage. Also paladins got flames of devotion because people wanted paladins to have smite like ability. So in other hand Obsidian wanted to make classes different from what they were in D&D and in other hand people wanted them to be similar to D&D classes so in end we ended with compromise classes that have bit of both. Definitely agree on someone being protected by their devotion lol I would imagine that the only protection one would gain from this is when fighting against the Undead and Spirts (zombies, demons, etc). Traditionally, Paladins are better meat shields than Fighters, whereas Fighters are better DPS/Utility than Paladins. The offset to this (due to the fact that a player can build a Fighter to be a meat shield) is that Paladins get automatic offense/defense bonuses against the undead. This has been what saved Paladins from being completely useless in traditional RPG's. Paladins aren't protected by their devotion, but power of their soul that they control with their devotion. It is same power that wizards, priest, druids and ciphers use to cast their spells for example. Gods in Eora (world of PoE) use same soul power to work although they use power of millions of souls. Also it is soul power that gives "undead" their undead life in poe and there isn't (at least yet) demons in divine sense. There are quite much spirit creatures in Eora, as souls are able to channel so much power and it is possible to tie them to nearly everything, especially if there is bit of adra to help the process.
AndreaColombo Posted November 2, 2015 Posted November 2, 2015 Unless something changed since 2.0, that was definitely not the case... my paladin was 11 points ahead of my custom fighter in 2.0, even at level 14. If he'd gotten 3.5 points of deflection/level, he'd have been 17 points ahead instead. I ran the math (and tested it in game) when defender was nerfed, so I'm pretty sure it wasn' t the case back then. Did you try rolling a new paladin? Maybe, just as the buff to the fighter's deflection isn't applying to existing characters, the nerf doesn't kick in until you roll a new character... I'm on 2.02 but I forgot to remove any items of protection from my characters before running the comparison. Deflection progression is the same for both classes. "Time is not your enemy. Forever is." — Fall-From-Grace, Planescape: Torment "It's the questions we can't answer that teach us the most. They teach us how to think. If you give a man an answer, all he gains is a little fact. But give him a question, and he'll look for his own answers." — Kvothe, The Wise Man's Fears My Deadfire mods: Brilliant Mod | Faster Deadfire | Deadfire Unnerfed | Helwalker Rekke | Permanent Per-Rest Bonuses | PoE Items for Deadfire | No Recyled Icons | Soul Charged Nautilus
Gairnulf Posted November 3, 2015 Posted November 3, 2015 Is there reliable data anywhere on Deflection and Accuracy progression? I thought every class progressed with +3 Accuracy and +3 Deflection per level, with just the base values being different. A Custom Editor for Deadfire's Data:
AndreaColombo Posted November 3, 2015 Posted November 3, 2015 That is indeed the case, as far as I'm aware. "Time is not your enemy. Forever is." — Fall-From-Grace, Planescape: Torment "It's the questions we can't answer that teach us the most. They teach us how to think. If you give a man an answer, all he gains is a little fact. But give him a question, and he'll look for his own answers." — Kvothe, The Wise Man's Fears My Deadfire mods: Brilliant Mod | Faster Deadfire | Deadfire Unnerfed | Helwalker Rekke | Permanent Per-Rest Bonuses | PoE Items for Deadfire | No Recyled Icons | Soul Charged Nautilus
Gairnulf Posted November 4, 2015 Posted November 4, 2015 In that case Njall must be confused when talking about 3.5 pts per level. A Custom Editor for Deadfire's Data:
AndreaColombo Posted November 4, 2015 Posted November 4, 2015 ^ that was I but my math was off and Josh confirmed 3/level on Twitter. "Time is not your enemy. Forever is." — Fall-From-Grace, Planescape: Torment "It's the questions we can't answer that teach us the most. They teach us how to think. If you give a man an answer, all he gains is a little fact. But give him a question, and he'll look for his own answers." — Kvothe, The Wise Man's Fears My Deadfire mods: Brilliant Mod | Faster Deadfire | Deadfire Unnerfed | Helwalker Rekke | Permanent Per-Rest Bonuses | PoE Items for Deadfire | No Recyled Icons | Soul Charged Nautilus
Njall Posted November 4, 2015 Posted November 4, 2015 (edited) In that case Njall must be confused when talking about 3.5 pts per level. Eh...? I never said it was 3.5/level, I said that in 2.0 it was definitely 3/level since I tested it ( and haven't checked again since then ). Edited November 4, 2015 by Njall
Gairnulf Posted November 4, 2015 Posted November 4, 2015 I see now. My mistake. A Custom Editor for Deadfire's Data:
Darkpriest Posted November 4, 2015 Posted November 4, 2015 Ahh am i the only one who built his paladin i 3.5 around super.high charisma and smites, divine shield and might and spell buffs. Sure it were bursts but with spells buffind charisma you could have extra.dmg and ac and smites really worked well. I miss my Paladin of Torm... PoE paladins somehow lack the punch for me.
Elerond Posted November 4, 2015 Posted November 4, 2015 Ahh am i the only one who built his paladin i 3.5 around super.high charisma and smites, divine shield and might and spell buffs. Sure it were bursts but with spells buffind charisma you could have extra.dmg and ac and smites really worked well. I miss my Paladin of Torm... PoE paladins somehow lack the punch for me. There was that time when certain Bleak Walker build was able to do flames of devotion strikes that did over 600 points of damage and killed nearly everything with one hit. But that was not direction that Obsidian wanted to go.
aweigh0101 Posted November 5, 2015 Posted November 5, 2015 (edited) - Edited November 5, 2015 by aweigh0101
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