Paradox Interactive Acquires White Wolf Publishing

[Blodhemn]

 

 

Please don't ruin it by using an isometric engine. Bloodlines is one of my favorite games, but I doubt I'd even bother if it's turned into turn based gaming. The first-person immersion with the characters in a modern day city environment is one of the best things about it. Leave isometric to the medieval fantasy/D&D/post apocalyptic crowd.

I doubt that Obsidian can deliver production values expected of first person games.

Unless Paradox is willing to invest in the project we will likely get another nostalgia cash-grab.

 

Wot. New Vegas seemed to handle pretty well. Source 2 engine is free too, so they could use that if they wanted (although I doubt they would since Tim Cain is probably traumatized from the nightmare that was developing while S1 was still in dev).

Hell, they could still use Source 2013. That engine still delivers on impressive facial animations.

 

That's what I was wondering also. Is Source that bad to deal with that RPG makers don't want to bother with it, unless it's already modded for specific RPG elements? If it's free then I guess all that's left is the time consumed with modding and bug testing(heh). 

[Cantousent]

I actually much prefer turn based combat (although I didn't like it in the recent Fallout titles with VATS). I *much* prefer an isometric view.

 

However, I'd like to see them take advantage of some of the settings where combat is more incidental, and I wonder if they can get their minds around that. I'm an unabashed and unashamed Sawyer fan for various reasons, and I'll disclaim that straight away. However, he'll have to go around his love of combat mechanics and go more for story. He seems to love the sandbox more than the story, although I loved New Vegas and I think Pillars of Eternity had some great story ideas.

 

So, I *really* want a game in this universe. Hell, I really want a game in the Cthulu universe, but I want one where combat is something you avoid most of the time lest you end up drooling on yourself in some asylum somewhere. I want something where your non-combat skills are just as important and come into play even more often than your combat skills. Something where the mechanics of non-combat skills is at least on par with the diversity and nuance of balancing CC spells, direct damage spells, Area Effect spells, maces, swords, axes, spears, bows, crossbows, blunderbusses, throwing axes, divine buffs, arcane buffs, etc etc etc.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

Just make a great game with memorable characters and an engaging story. And arguments with stop signs.

[Blodhemn]

I actually much prefer turn based combat (although I didn't like it in the recent Fallout titles with VATS). I *much* prefer an isometric view.

 

However, I'd like to see them take advantage of some of the settings where combat is more incidental, and I wonder if they can get their minds around that. I'm an unabashed and unashamed Sawyer fan for various reasons, and I'll disclaim that straight away. However, he'll have to go around his love of combat mechanics and go more for story. He seems to love the sandbox more than the story, although I loved New Vegas and I think Pillars of Eternity had some great story ideas.

 

So, I *really* want a game in this universe. Hell, I really want a game in the Cthulu universe, but I want one where combat is something you avoid most of the time lest you end up drooling on yourself in some asylum somewhere. I want something where your non-combat skills are just as important and come into play even more often than your combat skills. Something where the mechanics of non-combat skills is at least on par with the diversity and nuance of balancing CC spells, direct damage spells, Area Effect spells, maces, swords, axes, spears, bows, crossbows, blunderbusses, throwing axes, divine buffs, arcane buffs, etc etc etc.

So you want as little combat as possible, but when there is combat you want it turn based? I don't get it. If you don't want much combat for this type game then why should it matter? Also, turn based combat would take away from some of the *scares* and immersion that Bloodlines had, same goes for isometric view. First person, real time/action combat makes more sense for this game. Not everything needs to be old school just for the sake of it, and there's plenty of those type games out there already for the people who like them. 

 

I do agree that story/dialogue matters more than combat in this universe, but the latter is still quite important as well. Much of Bloodlines player builds were built around it, for example. The shooting was pretty weak for a shooter but still, you could do it if you wanted. The combat was about as diverse as you'd want, pretty diverse for a shooter and likewise hands on for an RPG. It was the best of both worlds. 

Edited November 1, 2015 by Blodhemn

[Cantousent]

You misunderstand. I *do* prefer combat to be turn based. I prefer my combat centered RPGs to be isometric, especially if they're party based. However, those aren't as important for a game that focuses more on non-combat RPG aspects than combat aspects. So, for such a game, I'm pretty much on board with a first person perspective.

 

I put the blame on myself for not conveying my thoughts properly.

[Blodhemn]

Ah I see, no problem. I usually do the same. 

 

Also, I don't think story is all that important, Bloodlines wasn't anything special on the whole in that regard, but the quests were so unique that they made up the story as it went along - something Obsidian could use some work on, and is honestly hard to pull off. Bloodlines was *down to earth* as far as story goes, and that was refreshing. The individual quests were almost episodic in scope, which just made for an extremely fun and different experience from the start. Only towards the end did the game get tiresome with repetitive combat, otherwise it was full of original quests in unique locations and situations. 

[aluminiumtrioxid]

 

I do agree that story/dialogue matters more than combat in this universe, but the latter is still quite important as well. Much of Bloodlines player builds were built around it, for example. 

 

 

I'd argue that was a weakness of the adaptation, not a necessity arising from the needs of the universe.

[Blodhemn]

The combat? Eh, it doesn't get as repetitive as pure FPS and it's not as slow and nonsensical as turn based. A Jack of all trades.

[aluminiumtrioxid]

The combat? Eh, it doesn't get as repetitive as pure FPS and it's not as slow and nonsensical as turn based. A Jack of all trades.

 

No, I mean, the fact that the game pretty much mandated picking up reasonable competence in it is a weakness of the adaptation. In a proper Vampire game, you should always have the option to make others kill your enemies for you.

Edited November 1, 2015 by aluminiumtrioxid

[Blodhemn]

Right... that's what we need, a realistic vampire sim...

[Oner]

Right... that's what we need, a realistic vampire sim...

No, a game that follows the themes and spirit and style of it's source material. Because, you know, when you play a VtM video game, you do it because it's more of the same - more VtM.

It has nothing to do with being a "realistic sim" of anything.

[Cantousent]

I'm more familiar with Cthulu, but my experience with the pen and paper game is that it's not about vamping on folks nearly so much as things like investigation and mystery and not quite as much about combat. Sure, have combat in the game, but it shouldn't be the primary purpose and, if there were ever a game to do this, make non-combat options available for every encounter. Yeah, Blod, you might not like that idea, but it fits in with the game setting. Going up against werewolves and mages is a particularly bad idea in the vast majority of cases for vampires in this setting if I recall right. ...And, if you don't like the non-combat slant of the setting, why license it? Why not just create a vampire game where combat is the central theme? With all that said, I would actually like a Cthulu game even more because combat is almost always something to avoid in that setting.

 

Combat isn't bad. I like a good hack and slash as much or more than the next guy, but I also like games that allow for some actual role-playing in a setting and this setting is an excellent opportunity for such a game. No, I don't want a vampire sim. I want a game where the mystery and the investigation are more important than the combat. That's wildly different than saying I want to babysit my vampire avatar while he uses the toilet, cooks vamp food, showers, and dates other vamps with the occasional mortal appetizer on the side. It's easy to trivialize one another's positions, but at least understand the position. Just sayin'. :Cant's crooked grin icon:

[Blodhemn]

You guys act like Bloodlines wasn't good or something, just because it was combat heavy in parts. What about the rest of the game? You know, where it had better quests, lore and believable/interactive world than any game since?

[Elerond]

You guys act like Bloodlines wasn't good or something, just because it was combat heavy in parts. What about the rest of the game? You know, where it had better quests, lore and believable/interactive world than any game since?

 

Bloodlines was good game outside of combat, but its combat wasn't great and there was quite lot of areas and quest (absolutely too much) that were mainly designed combat in the mind, especially in end game.

 

Quests,lore, believable/interactive world part depends quite lot on peoples personal preferences. In my opinion it mostly excel on these parts but there are some quite poor choices also. 

 

Overall the game was good, even great, but not because of designers' choice to make combat play much bigger part than what it does in VtM itself.

[Blodhemn]

I'm just not a stickler for sticking to source material, no matter what. They're different mediums, and usually that requires some workaround.

 

The combat isn't the best part, I think everyone would agree, but it really isn't more combat heavy than most games and it does kind of serve a purpose. 

[aluminiumtrioxid]

I'm just not a stickler for sticking to source material, no matter what. They're different mediums, and usually that requires some workaround.

 

Yeah, but "shoot the core themes of your source material in the foot" generally doesn't make a good adaptation.

 

Like... in a D&D game, you kind of expect at least some dungeons and possibly a dragon or more. The expected core experience is centered around exploration of hostile territory and killing monsters to take their stuff. Conversely, in Vampire, you expect lots of scheming and backstabbing and desperate clinging to the remains of your Humanity, where combat is usually a fail state and the result of your ineptitude at the aforementioned activities.

[FlintlockJazz]

And, if you don't like the non-combat slant of the setting, why license it? Why not just create a vampire game where combat is the central theme?

Unfortunately I can see the primary reason for licensing it is simply this: brand recognition.  Slap a known franchise on a product and it doesn't matter what the product is, you will sell more than a new brand name.  Redemption was pretty much a series of dungeon crawls where you stabbed, slashed, shot, blew up, and drank your way through hundreds of no-name kindred yet they still paid out for the V:tM brand name despite having very little in common simply because they knew they would sell more that way.  Hopefully Paradox will be more considerate with the IP but we'll just have to wait and see I think.

[Raithe]

Well Redemption was a bit of an odd bird. Yes it was a whole slew of dungeon crawls with what was an obscene amount of combat (for a VtM setting), but to be fair that was the generic rpg style of games at that time. But the fluff, the story, and most of the characters around those dungeon crawls were fairly pitch perfect for VtM as I recall...

[FlintlockJazz]

Well Redemption was a bit of an odd bird. Yes it was a whole slew of dungeon crawls with what was an obscene amount of combat (for a VtM setting), but to be fair that was the generic rpg style of games at that time. But the fluff, the story, and most of the characters around those dungeon crawls were fairly pitch perfect for VtM as I recall...

As someone who played the tabletop, did the live action version, had all the clanbooks at the time etc, they really weren't, they were pretty much a travesty in most respects.

[Raithe]

Okay, I didn't do the live action, but I spent some time with the pen and paper and still have my shelves high of assorted WoD stuff.... but the characters and the moods (apart from the combat heavy) seemed to be the ambience our old GM's pushed. Loss, politics, clinging to humanity while struggling to succeed as predators, manipulations, secrets... To be fair, Vampire the Dark Ages was much more likely to slide into the bloody combat than VtM and Redemption did start off there, so maybe that colours my perception of it.

 

Of course, it has been a bloody long time since I sat down and played Redemption.

[FlintlockJazz]

I enjoyed Redemption for what it was at the time, don't think I'm hating on it or anything, it was a fun vampire romp and I might actually go and load it up again after I finish work as you have given me a hankering for it now, damn you!   It just played exceptionally fast and exceptionally loose with the whole setting, to the degree that I think you could have put a different name on the box and it wouldn't have made a difference.  The 'love story' of the main character is also Twilight-level I have to say.

[Blodhemn]

 

I'm just not a stickler for sticking to source material, no matter what. They're different mediums, and usually that requires some workaround.

 

Yeah, but "shoot the core themes of your source material in the foot" generally doesn't make a good adaptation.

 

Like... in a D&D game, you kind of expect at least some dungeons and possibly a dragon or more. The expected core experience is centered around exploration of hostile territory and killing monsters to take their stuff. Conversely, in Vampire, you expect lots of scheming and backstabbing and desperate clinging to the remains of your Humanity, where combat is usually a fail state and the result of your ineptitude at the aforementioned activities.

 

Desperately clinging and scheming? Yeah... try making a 30 hr game consisting of nothing but that. It's not happening, and if it did, it'd most likely be full of it's own set of issues, and be worse off, but hey, that's all good because it's true to source. 

[aluminiumtrioxid]

 

 

I'm just not a stickler for sticking to source material, no matter what. They're different mediums, and usually that requires some workaround.

 

Yeah, but "shoot the core themes of your source material in the foot" generally doesn't make a good adaptation.

 

Like... in a D&D game, you kind of expect at least some dungeons and possibly a dragon or more. The expected core experience is centered around exploration of hostile territory and killing monsters to take their stuff. Conversely, in Vampire, you expect lots of scheming and backstabbing and desperate clinging to the remains of your Humanity, where combat is usually a fail state and the result of your ineptitude at the aforementioned activities.

 

Desperately clinging and scheming? Yeah... try making a 30 hr game consisting of nothing but that. It's not happening, and if it did, it'd most likely be full of it's own set of issues, and be worse off, but hey, that's all good because it's true to source. 

 

 

Tabletop GMs have done campaigns spanning multiple years about vampire politics, so I'm not particularly worried that a 30 hr game by the top narrative designers of the industry would somehow fail to stay entertaining. I'm pretty sure PST had at least 30 hours' worth of content consisting of nothing but talking to people.

 

Of course I'd rather have them shoot for a 10-20 hour long experience with a ton of reactivity and replayability.

[Cantousent]

I'm not asking for no combat, or even tiny amounts. I'm asking for smartly paced combat that supports a great story rather than a weak story to support tons if combat. To be fair, I don't want to mischaracterize anyone else as calling for a weak story, but the line in the setting is and should be different than say..

Dungeons and Dragons or Gamma World.

[Barothmuk]

Not to mention those vintage dank memes they dug up and attempted necromancy on.

 

 

I've never found that a fair complaint.

 

Of course there's stupid memes everywhere, it's set in a highschool. What matters is they never really crammed it into the dialogue resulting in Bioware tier "references"

 

Ahem