Democrat Presidential Debate

[Hurlshort]

 

 

Bernie attempts to lessen knee jerk butt puckering at the mention of  ... I can't even say it, the "S" word

 

Also

http://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2015/11/21/whatever-the-heck-bernie-sanders-is-talking-about-its-not-socialism/

 

The senile old man is confused, or more likely lying. He says he's against capitalism, so he has to be a Socialist, what else is there? Or may be he just doesn't know what all those big words actually mean.

 

 

[Wrath of Dagon]

 

 

 

Bernie attempts to lessen knee jerk butt puckering at the mention of  ... I can't even say it, the "S" word Also

http://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2015/11/21/whatever-the-heck-bernie-sanders-is-talking-about-its-not-socialism/

 

The senile old man is confused, or more likely lying. He says he's against capitalism, so he has to be a Socialist, what else is there?

 

Mutalism, Primitivism, Feudalism, Technocracy.

 

I mean besides sci-fi and ancient past. Feudalism, really?

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

 

 

 

 

Bernie attempts to lessen knee jerk butt puckering at the mention of  ... I can't even say it, the "S" word Also

http://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2015/11/21/whatever-the-heck-bernie-sanders-is-talking-about-its-not-socialism/

The senile old man is confused, or more likely lying. He says he's against capitalism, so he has to be a Socialist, what else is there?

Mutalism, Primitivism, Feudalism, Technocracy.

I mean besides sci-fi and ancient past. Feudalism, really?

It's an alternative system to Capitalism and Socialism. Which you asked for.

 

At any rate, Bernie is a capitalist. He believes in private ownership of production, albeit with a safety net bound to trigger liberals and aynclaps.

[Wrath of Dagon]

Well, he said he's against capitalism, so again you refuse to take him at his word. And I meant any alternatives he could believe in, not all possible post-Fallout alternatives.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

Well, he said he's against capitalism

He also supports private businesses, which isn't very anti-capitalist. If you can find where he has come out in favor of worker control of production, I'll even give you co-ops for this, then you'll find a statement of him supporting socialism.

 

so again you refuse to take him at his word.

North Korea says they're a democratic republic, do you take them at their word? Obama says he's pro-freedom, do you take him at his word?

 

Based upon his proposals Bernie Sanders is a Social Democrat, he critiques capitalism from a socialist viewpoint, but does not put forward an alternative to capitalism instead advocating reforms.

 

And I meant any alternatives he could believe in, not all possible post-Fallout alternatives.

Mutalism and Technocratic fit alternatives not occurring in a post-Nuclear Fallout world. As to what he believes in, Capitalism with a social safety net. His "socialism" is capitalism with government providing more benefits and regulating industry, not public ownership of production. Edited November 22, 2015 by KaineParker

[Wrath of Dagon]

 

Well, he said he's against capitalism

He also supports private businesses, which isn't very anti-capitalist. If you can find where he has come out in favor of worker control of production, I'll even give you co-ops for this, then you'll find a statement of him supporting socialism.

 

It's a little hard to find his past statements, since the search results are dominated by his current lies, but I did find a few things:

 

"From the 1988 dissertation of Steven Soifer, a professor of social work at the University of Memphis, who wrote about Sanders’ time as mayor of Burlington: “What being a socialist means is … that you hold out … a vision of society where poverty is absolutely unnecessary, where international relations are not based on greed … but on cooperation … where human beings can own the means of production and work together rather than having to work as semi-slaves to other people who can hire and fire.”

 

Read more: http://www.politico.com/story/2015/07/14-things-bernie-sanders-has-said-about-socialism-120265#ixzz3sC4V2mPG

 

"He joined the Young People's Socialist League ("Yipsel"), an organization that advocated the "social ownership and democratic control of the means of production and distribution" but was explicitly anti-communist."

 

""I once asked him what he meant by calling himself a 'socialist,' and he referred to an article that was already a touchstone of mine, which was Albert Einstein's 'Why Socialism?'" says Sanders' friend Jim Rader. "I think that Bernie's basic idea of socialism was just about as simple as Einstein's formulation." (In short, according to Einstein, capitalism is a soul-sucking construct that corrodes society.)"

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2015/07/bernie-sanders-president-change-politics

 

Hmm, I didn't know Einstein was a socialist, I guess you can be smart and insane.

 

"To wit: Sanders described himself as “clearly anti-capitalistic” in a 1976 interview with the Cynic, UVM's weekly student newspaper.

 

“Contrast what the young people in China and Cuba are doing for themselves and for their country as compared to the young people in America,” he said. “It’s quite obvious why kids are going to turn to drugs to get the hell out of a disgusting system or sit in front of a TV set for 60 hours a week.” https://newrepublic.com/article/122309/bernie-sanders-archive-bustling-mysterious-young-men

 

He's also said many times his idol is Eugene V Debs, and that's as real socialist as you can get.

 

 

so again you refuse to take him at his word.

North Korea says they're a democratic republic, do you take them at their word? Obama says he's pro-freedom, do you take him at his word?

 

Based upon his proposals Bernie Sanders is a Social Democrat, he critiques capitalism from a socialist viewpoint, but does not put forward an alternative to capitalism instead advocating reforms.

 

So at least we both agree he's a liar. Edited November 22, 2015 by Wrath of Dagon

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

It's a little hard to find his past statements, since the search results are dominated by his current lies, but I did find a few things:"From the 1988 dissertation of Steven Soifer, a professor of social work at the University of Memphis, who wrote about Sanders’ time as mayor of Burlington: “What being a socialist means is … that you hold out … a vision of society where poverty is absolutely unnecessary, where international relations are not based on greed … but on cooperation … where human beings can own the means of production and work together rather than having to work as semi-slaves to other people who can hire and fire.”Read more: http://www.politico.com/story/2015/07/14-things-bernie-sanders-has-said-about-socialism-120265#ixzz3sC4V2mPG"He joined the Young People's Socialist League ("Yipsel"), an organization that advocated the "social ownership and democratic control of the means of production and distribution" but was explicitly anti-communist."""I once asked him what he meant by calling himself a 'socialist,' and he referred to an article that was already a touchstone of mine, which was Albert Einstein's 'Why Socialism?'" says Sanders' friend Jim Rader. "I think that Bernie's basic idea of socialism was just about as simple as Einstein's formulation." (In short, according to Einstein, capitalism is a soul-sucking construct that corrodes society.)" Hmm, I didn't know Einstein was a socialist, I guess you can be smart and insane. http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2015/07/bernie-sanders-president-change-politics"To wit: Sanders described himself as “clearly anti-capitalistic” in a 1976 interview with the Cynic, UVM's weekly student newspaper.“Contrast what the young people in China and Cuba are doing for themselves and for their country as compared to the young people in America,” he said. “It’s quite obvious why kids are going to turn to drugs to get the hell out of a disgusting system or sit in front of a TV set for 60 hours a week.” https://newrepublic.com/article/122309/bernie-sanders-archive-bustling-mysterious-young-menHe's also said many times his idol is Eugene V Debs, and that's as real socialist as you can get. 

Interesting, is the most recent thing a dissertation written about him from the 80's?

 

So at least we both agree he's a liar.

He's a politician, being a liar is part of the job description.

[Guard Dog]

 

 

 

 

Bernie attempts to lessen knee jerk butt puckering at the mention of  ... I can't even say it, the "S" word Also

http://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2015/11/21/whatever-the-heck-bernie-sanders-is-talking-about-its-not-socialism/

 

The senile old man is confused, or more likely lying. He says he's against capitalism, so he has to be a Socialist, what else is there?

 

Mutalism, Primitivism, Feudalism, Technocracy.

 

I mean besides sci-fi and ancient past. Feudalism, really?

 

You ever read Al Gore's book? Tell me THAT isn't an argument for the return of feudalism. Which is a great system when one imagines themselves as part of the nobility, as Gore certainly does.

[Elerond]

 

 

Bernie attempts to lessen knee jerk butt puckering at the mention of  ... I can't even say it, the "S" word

 

Also

http://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2015/11/21/whatever-the-heck-bernie-sanders-is-talking-about-its-not-socialism/

 

The senile old man is confused, or more likely lying. He says he's against capitalism, so he has to be a Socialist, what else is there? Or may be he just doesn't know what all those big words actually mean.

 

 

Main idea behind socialist movements is to lower economical disparity between people. In classical marxism that means moving means of production from individuals to collective ownership of people, but that is not only way to approach the subject.  Sanders seems to follow more right-wing version of socialistic ideologies where social equality is produced with market centered ways like progressive taxations, central buying system for social services, income support for poor and so on. But ownership of everything would still be private and government's role is to equalize money distribution instead of production.

[Ineth]

So at least we both agree he's a liar.

He's a politician, being a liar is part of the job description.

 

Usually, politicians use dishonest labels to make their ideas sound more palatable to the voting majority than they actually are - not less.

 

Outside of college millennials and newspaper columnists, socialism is generally still considered a dirty word - thankfully. So why adopt it if his actual beliefs are much more moderate and majority-friendly?

 

Here are two possible explanations:

1. He clings to the word out of child-like stubborness, because he has come to associate it with the dreamy idea of what the world should look like in his head. In this case it's safe to assume that his economic and political beliefs are derived from a place of naiveté in the first place.

   Not someone who should be president.

    

2. He really is a socialist, and has associated himself with the word too often in the past to deny it now. He refrains from actually calling for an end to capitalism for now, but could do much damage once in power.

   Not someone who should be president.

Edited November 22, 2015 by Ineth

[Namutree]

aynclaps.

 

Ha!

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

 Usually, politicians use dishonest labels to make their ideas sound more palatable to the voting majority than they actually are - not less.

 

Outside of college millennials and newspaper columnists, socialism is generally still considered a dirty word - thankfully. So why adopt it if his actual beliefs are much more moderate and majority-friendly?

Democratic voters respond very positively to the European Social Democrats welfare initiatives and think of it as "socialism". Bernie is using this to run as an alternative to Shillary and if poll numbers are any indication it's far more successful than whatever O'Malley is doing. In addition, Sanders is doing better than Shillary among voters who would normally vote Republican, so either poor rural workers are secretly socialist or saying you want a higher minimum wage isn't a toxic position.

 

He clings to the word out of child-like stubborness, because he has come to associate it with the dreamy idea of what the world should look like in his head. In this case it's safe to assume that his economic and political beliefs are derived from a place of naiveté in the first place.

Americans don't have a good understanding of political labels, as can be evidenced by the misunderstanding of "liberal", "socialist", and "communist".

 

As for naivete, the top Republican candidates believe that building a wall along the US-Mexico border and making Mexico pay for it is feasible and that pyramids are actually giant grain silos. It seems naive positions are the best received.

 

He really is a socialist, and has associated himself with the word too often in the past to deny it now. He refrains from actually calling for an end to capitalism for now, but could do much damage once in power.

A conspiracy theory about a Jew infiltrating the government to implement communism? Qisinta is that you?

[BruceVC]

 

So at least we both agree he's a liar.

He's a politician, being a liar is part of the job description.

 

Usually, politicians use dishonest labels to make their ideas sound more palatable to the voting majority than they actually are - not less.

 

Outside of college millennials and newspaper columnists, socialism is generally still considered a dirty word - thankfully. So why adopt it if his actual beliefs are much more moderate and majority-friendly?

 

Here are two possible explanations:

1. He clings to the word out of child-like stubborness, because he has come to associate it with the dreamy idea of what the world should look like in his head. In this case it's safe to assume that his economic and political beliefs are derived from a place of naiveté in the first place.

   Not someone who should be president.

    

2. He really is a socialist, and has associated himself with the word too often in the past to deny it now. He refrains from actually calling for an end to capitalism for now, but could do much damage once in power.

   Not someone who should be president.

 

I doubt it would be possible to end Capitalism  in the USA ?

 

But the thought that someone in government would want to that doesn't make sense....I can imagine he would want to make some structural reforms....not sure  what he would seriously change as there have been already increased governance in the financial sector after 2008?

 

In fact what would Bernie change ?

[BruceVC]

I read that link about Sanders and his pitch for what he calls "Democratic Socialism " 

 

 

What exactly does this mean? He says its " “Democratic socialism means that we must create an economy that works for all, not just the very wealthy.”

 

This is what I normally find with these types of ideas and new types of ideology...they don't make sense when you start breaking them down and asking for details 

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

I read that link about Sanders and his pitch for what he calls "Democratic Socialism " 

 

 

What exactly does this mean?

 

State funded health care, higher minimum wages, expanded Social Security with private entities being more tightly regulated and higher taxes. Essentially pay more in taxes, get more benefits, and Wall Street will be kept on a tighter leash.

[BruceVC]

 

I read that link about Sanders and his pitch for what he calls "Democratic Socialism " 

 

 

What exactly does this mean?

State funded health care, higher minimum wages, expanded Social Security with private entities being more tightly regulated and higher taxes. Essentially pay more in taxes, get more benefits, and Wall Street will be kept on a tighter leash.

 

Okay so that doesn't seem unreasonable ? What does expanded Social Security entail....the only real criticism  I have with what you posted is I get concerned when people talk about things like  " more regulation in Wall Street or the Private sector " ...there is already enough monitoring and government intervention IMO

 

But where will the money come from to provide all these services ...or is that not a consideration?

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

 

 

I read that link about Sanders and his pitch for what he calls "Democratic Socialism " 

 

 

What exactly does this mean?

 

State funded health care, higher minimum wages, expanded Social Security with private entities being more tightly regulated and higher taxes. Essentially pay more in taxes, get more benefits, and Wall Street will be kept on a tighter leash.

Okay so that doesn't seem unreasonable ? What does expanded Social Security entail....the only real criticism  I have with what you posted is I get concerned when people talk about things like  " more regulation in Wall Street or the Private sector " ...there is already enough monitoring and government intervention IMO

 

But where will the money come from to provide all these services ...or is that not a consideration?

Expanded social security means higher payouts to recipients. His idea to fund it is to eliminate the limit on how much income the 4.2%(?) SS tax rate is based on.

 

He wants to tax Wall Street more(likely a combination of eliminating loop holes and adding new brackets) and break up "Too Big To Fail" banks.

[Namutree]

 

But where will the money come from to provide all these services ...or is that not a consideration?

 

I think he already answered that Bruce:

 

 

Essentially pay more in taxes

 

[Rostere]

I read that link about Sanders and his pitch for what he calls "Democratic Socialism " 

 

 

What exactly does this mean? He says its " “Democratic socialism means that we must create an economy that works for all, not just the very wealthy.”

 

This is what I normally find with these types of ideas and new types of ideology...they don't make sense when you start breaking them down and asking for details 

 

"Democratic Socialism" is a synonym for "Social Democracy". Social Democracy is the largest left-wing movement in the world and thus is a very vague label. It is a matter of opinion of it is a good ideology of course, but it is far from vacuous at least, it is very real, in fact I would say that with the existence of the Socialist International and the Progressive Alliance, Social Democracy is the largest (somewhat) unified political movement in the world (and thus by extension, in the history of mankind). So what Sanders is trying to say that he belongs to is far from a "new type of ideology", as far as practical results go, social democracy might be the easiest ideology to find out more about by looking at the countries which have been ruled by Social Democratic parties, and their legacy.

[BruceVC]

 

 

 

I read that link about Sanders and his pitch for what he calls "Democratic Socialism " 

 

 

What exactly does this mean?

State funded health care, higher minimum wages, expanded Social Security with private entities being more tightly regulated and higher taxes. Essentially pay more in taxes, get more benefits, and Wall Street will be kept on a tighter leash.

Okay so that doesn't seem unreasonable ? What does expanded Social Security entail....the only real criticism  I have with what you posted is I get concerned when people talk about things like  " more regulation in Wall Street or the Private sector " ...there is already enough monitoring and government intervention IMO

 

But where will the money come from to provide all these services ...or is that not a consideration?

Expanded social security means higher payouts to recipients. His idea to fund it is to eliminate the limit on how much income the 4.2%(?) SS tax rate is based on.

 

He wants to tax Wall Street more(likely a combination of eliminating loop holes and adding new brackets) and break up "Too Big To Fail" banks.

 

Okay thanks for explaining ....I like some of his ideas but I'm not  so excited about others

 

Oh well at least this a hypothetical debate because its not like he will be the Democratic candidate  

 

 

I read that link about Sanders and his pitch for what he calls "Democratic Socialism " 

 

 

What exactly does this mean? He says its " “Democratic socialism means that we must create an economy that works for all, not just the very wealthy.”

 

This is what I normally find with these types of ideas and new types of ideology...they don't make sense when you start breaking them down and asking for details 

 

"Democratic Socialism" is a synonym for "Social Democracy". Social Democracy is the largest left-wing movement in the world and thus is a very vague label. It is a matter of opinion of it is a good ideology of course, but it is far from vacuous at least, it is very real, in fact I would say that with the existence of the Socialist International and the Progressive Alliance, Social Democracy is the largest (somewhat) unified political movement in the world (and thus by extension, in the history of mankind). So what Sanders is trying to say that he belongs to is far from a "new type of ideology", as far as practical results go, social democracy might be the easiest ideology to find out more about by looking at the countries which have been ruled by Social Democratic parties, and their legacy.

 

What countries have governments that are " Social Democracy's and what is your definition of this type of ideology in practical terms and what type of change would be see in the USA is this was implemented ?

 

I imagine the Scandinavian countries follow something like this?

 

[Rostere]

I imagine the Scandinavian countries follow something like this?

 

Historically, yes, during some periods. For example, Sweden during the period of 1920 to 1976. But then you will have to compare to other countries during the same period.

 

More recent things you could look at is what the SPD in Germany has done since 1998, the SPÖ in Austria, the most famous Social Democrat party currently in govnerment is possibly the PS in France.

 

Closer to where you live you have the SWAPO, FRELIMO and MDC parties in your neighbouring countries. They are of course influenced by the specific African conditions, but essentially they are the African counterparts of European Social Democrat parties.

[BruceVC]

 

I imagine the Scandinavian countries follow something like this?

 

Historically, yes, during some periods. For example, Sweden during the period of 1920 to 1976. But then you will have to compare to other countries during the same period.

 

More recent things you could look at is what the SPD in Germany has done since 1998, the SPÖ in Austria, the most famous Social Democrat party currently in govnerment is possibly the PS in France.

 

Closer to where you live you have the SWAPO, FRELIMO and MDC parties in your neighbouring countries. They are of course influenced by the specific African conditions, but essentially they are the African counterparts of European Social Democrat parties.

 

Thanks Ros....you really clever and have good general knowledge...what do you do for a living if you don't mind sharing?

[Ineth]

Sanders is doing better than Shillary among voters who would normally vote Republican, so either poor rural workers are secretly socialist or saying you want a higher minimum wage isn't a toxic position.

 

Maybe they want an anti-establishment candidate and don't care about the details (or think it's worth the risk)?

 

Or maybe they just really hate Hillary?

 

As for naivete, the top Republican candidates believe that building a wall along the US-Mexico border and making Mexico pay for it is feasible and that pyramids are actually giant grain silos. It seems naive positions are the best received.

 

Well, being less ridiculous than Trump is not a very high bar to clear...

[Zoraptor]

I rather suspect that all the 'end capitalism' type statements are more in the vein of 'end laissez faire capitalism' in reality. There's a distinct tendency to leave out important adjectives in politics which is why you have the liberal economic but socially neolithic Australian Liberal Party and a lot of socially liberal but non classic liberal economic leftist parties all labelled as 'liberal'. In any case, socialism is only incompatible with laissez faire capitalism, more interventionist or state capitalist models are still capitalism while being increasingly compatible with socialism. Communism is the philosophy that is theoretically incompatible with capitalism, though practically even there they aren't wholly immiscible because most communism is actually 'communism' much as most socialism is 'socialism' and most laissez faire capitalism is 'laissez faire capitalism'.

[Namutree]

I rather suspect that all the 'end capitalism' type statements are more in the vein of 'end laissez faire capitalism' in reality. 

If true such statements are downright silly since laissez faire has been dead since the early 20th century (at least in the US).