Is the stronghold boring on purpose?

[gkathellar]

 

What's really baffling about Josh's whole argument - that a more developed stronghold would have pissed off this mysterious "anti-stronghold" faction of players - is that for all that Caed Nua's really bare-bones, you can't actually ignore it. Sure, the player can choose not to visit or spend money on the buildings, but costs do accumulate because of bandits and monster raids and whatnot. This makes it actually easier to ignore if you invest in it, which is odd, to say the least.

 

Raedric's Hold would have been a better stronghold than Caed Nua. You can overthrow a tyrant lord and take over and oversee the village of Gilded Vale instead of an imaginary place.

 

inorite? The whole setup in Gilded Vale really seemed like it was leading to that. The two should really have been blended together.

 

Josh's argument is logical if you look it from point that they didn't had enough resources to polish every feature in the game and as Stronghold turn out to be much more difficult to implement than they expected, so  when they had to look features that they don't polish they probably had bias to look reasons not to polish Stronghold (as they didn't really have resource to do that anyway), which lead them notice anti-stronghold faction much more than they noticed other anti-factions (not including anti-romance) and use that as rationale why it would be wasteful to put resources in the stronghold.

 

Their original concepts for stronghold show that they planned to make it much more interactive than what it become at end. As Tim seemed to have planned whole own mini-game around it. Similarly crafting, skills, resting and cooking become much simpler than what their original plans for them were.

 

Right, I get all of that. What I'm saying is strange is that they made it simplistic and bare-bones, but didn't make it possible to ignore. Caed Nua will actively drain your resources even if you have nothing to do with it. You'd think that if it was minimalist and they knew it was minimalist, and they knew some players would dislike it, they would have made it possible to ignore following the first quest with Maerwald.

[wanderon]

 

 

What's really baffling about Josh's whole argument - that a more developed stronghold would have pissed off this mysterious "anti-stronghold" faction of players - is that for all that Caed Nua's really bare-bones, you can't actually ignore it. Sure, the player can choose not to visit or spend money on the buildings, but costs do accumulate because of bandits and monster raids and whatnot. This makes it actually easier to ignore if you invest in it, which is odd, to say the least.

 

Raedric's Hold would have been a better stronghold than Caed Nua. You can overthrow a tyrant lord and take over and oversee the village of Gilded Vale instead of an imaginary place.

 

inorite? The whole setup in Gilded Vale really seemed like it was leading to that. The two should really have been blended together.

 

Josh's argument is logical if you look it from point that they didn't had enough resources to polish every feature in the game and as Stronghold turn out to be much more difficult to implement than they expected, so  when they had to look features that they don't polish they probably had bias to look reasons not to polish Stronghold (as they didn't really have resource to do that anyway), which lead them notice anti-stronghold faction much more than they noticed other anti-factions (not including anti-romance) and use that as rationale why it would be wasteful to put resources in the stronghold.

 

Their original concepts for stronghold show that they planned to make it much more interactive than what it become at end. As Tim seemed to have planned whole own mini-game around it. Similarly crafting, skills, resting and cooking become much simpler than what their original plans for them were.

 

Right, I get all of that. What I'm saying is strange is that they made it simplistic and bare-bones, but didn't make it possible to ignore. Caed Nua will actively drain your resources even if you have nothing to do with it. You'd think that if it was minimalist and they knew it was minimalist, and they knew some players would dislike it, they would have made it possible to ignore following the first quest with Maerwald.

 

 

So if you get the keep and just ignore it (never do anything after opening the way to Defiance Bay) the keep drains your gold anyway through the taxes/bandits etc?

[gkathellar]

It's not like there's an "Abdicate" button anywhere on the Stronghold interface.

[wanderon]

It's not like there's an "Abdicate" button anywhere on the Stronghold interface.

Well I've never attempted to do so (and never progressed much into Act 3 so far) does it really become a serious drain if you ignore it or just an inconvenience that you think should be avoidable - it would seem to me that if you weren't sinking all that gold into repairing things that your coffers would be overflowing anyway and a small drain would be negligible.

[Oralaina]

 

It's not like there's an "Abdicate" button anywhere on the Stronghold interface.

Well I've never attempted to do so (and never progressed much into Act 3 so far) does it really become a serious drain if you ignore it or just an inconvenience that you think should be avoidable - it would seem to me that if you weren't sinking all that gold into repairing things that your coffers would be overflowing anyway and a small drain would be negligible.

 

 

It can cost you around 1500 or so copper every few days for payday if you have hirelings.  Of course, if you do none of the improvements, you can't have the hirelings.  I wonder if you can just talk to Maerwald, and do none of the other stuff at all.  Well, I suppose you can - but I wonder if that would ever cause any issues?  Might have to give it a try....

 

As for coffers overflowing, yeah.  Even spending copper on Caed Nua and buying fancy weapons and armor if I like them better than what the girls find - I still have more sitting around than I have anything to use it on.

Edited September 21, 2015 by Oralaina

[Selphea]

 

There's only two main things I would have liked to see with the stronghold.

 

First one is it would be nice if it came into the story more, like if a certain group's HQ was burned down and they were being witch hunted the main character could offer safe haven to them in the stronghold. Or if a bunch of NPCs were looking for jobs the main character could hire them at the stronghold.

 

Another is if to have more control over what the stronghold produces. There's a few pesky crafting materials that I can't ever seem to find enough of and it would be nice if there was a way to farm or negotiate trade agreements for them at the stronghold. Right now they do give crafting mats, but it's RNG-based.

 

I'd be pretty happy with just those two changes.

 

Once you complete the Barracks, you can hire NPCs.  You can have up to 8.... of course you do have to pay them.  Also, you can recruit every "special" NPC in the game, and drop them at Caed Nua, then send them on those special adventures.

 

The thing that's most annoying to me about the hirelings is that if you're out in the middle of nowhere and someone's invading Caed Nua, even if you have 8 hirelings INCLUDING Korgrak the Ogre, auto-resolving the invasion always costs you money - so far as I've been able to determine, you never "win" at auto-resolve.  And since you can't manual resolve if you're not AT Caed Nua - which believe me is a ROYAL PITA to accomplish if you're in the bowels of the Battery for instance - I find that particular setup fairly irritating.

 

 

Not those, I meant the poor farmers in Gilded Vale. They could've gone over and been my butlers or something.

[gkathellar]

 

It's not like there's an "Abdicate" button anywhere on the Stronghold interface.

Well I've never attempted to do so (and never progressed much into Act 3 so far) does it really become a serious drain if you ignore it or just an inconvenience that you think should be avoidable - it would seem to me that if you weren't sinking all that gold into repairing things that your coffers would be overflowing anyway and a small drain would be negligible.

 

I very much doubt it's ever a serious drain, but I just find it strange that Josh cited players who hate strongholds as an explanation for it being bare bones, but at the same tim there's no way to avoid it outright.

[waltc]

The stronghold is simply a part of the game...like the Vale and any other territory.  It's interwoven into the game itself...I can't find anything wrong with that.  As far as having to head back to the Stronghold to defend it from invaders...you're always given several days of advance notice, which I've found, no matter where I am, is plenty of time to get to the surface, get back there, defend your castle, rest up, etc. and return--or maybe go somewhere new. Usually I can stay where I am a couple more days and continue to fight or explore, before I have to head back, etc.

 

The game is what it is...I've never understood people getting unhappy with a game because it isn't what they would prefer it to be, instead--(they think!)...Lol...   No matter how "bare-bones" the stronghold, or how intricate and demanding, there will always be people who bitch about it...   The thing is that the game isn't about your stronghold--that's just a part of it--so if you make it too demanding then it overshadows the other elements in the game, elements meant to have more significance.  I've got a full complement of stronghold fighters,  a 100% complete stronghold, and I rarely ever see my funds dropping below $20,000...   Usually I am in the 30's and always flush with cash--with an infinite stash there is no reason to ever run out of $$$. But then, when my castle is invaded I make it point to be there and rally my mercenaries and fight alongside them, and I save a lot of $$$ in the process.

 

I also think it's a good thing when the game penalizes the player for neglecting his stronghold when he knows it will come under attack.  Not acting on that advance notice indicates the player is too lazy to defend his property and doesn't really care what happens to it, imo.  So it is only fitting that in his absence his paid defenders abandon their posts and don't do their jobs (if the Lord of the castle doesn't care, why should they?)--and stuff gets knocked down and has to be rebuilt, etc., at considerable expense.  I learned early in the game that I needed to participate with the defense of the stronghold if I was going to bother to rebuild it in the first place.  It's only logical.  Complaining about it seems like complaining about the color of the sky in the game--it is what it is, you you either play the game as it is or you choose not to.

 

 

[Oralaina]

 

 

There's only two main things I would have liked to see with the stronghold.

 

First one is it would be nice if it came into the story more, like if a certain group's HQ was burned down and they were being witch hunted the main character could offer safe haven to them in the stronghold. Or if a bunch of NPCs were looking for jobs the main character could hire them at the stronghold.

 

Another is if to have more control over what the stronghold produces. There's a few pesky crafting materials that I can't ever seem to find enough of and it would be nice if there was a way to farm or negotiate trade agreements for them at the stronghold. Right now they do give crafting mats, but it's RNG-based.

 

I'd be pretty happy with just those two changes.

 

Once you complete the Barracks, you can hire NPCs.  You can have up to 8.... of course you do have to pay them.  Also, you can recruit every "special" NPC in the game, and drop them at Caed Nua, then send them on those special adventures.

 

The thing that's most annoying to me about the hirelings is that if you're out in the middle of nowhere and someone's invading Caed Nua, even if you have 8 hirelings INCLUDING Korgrak the Ogre, auto-resolving the invasion always costs you money - so far as I've been able to determine, you never "win" at auto-resolve.  And since you can't manual resolve if you're not AT Caed Nua - which believe me is a ROYAL PITA to accomplish if you're in the bowels of the Battery for instance - I find that particular setup fairly irritating.

 

 

Not those, I meant the poor farmers in Gilded Vale. They could've gone over and been my butlers or something.

 

 

Ah!  Gotcha, thanks for clearing up my fog!

[FlintlockJazz]

 

I also think it's a good thing when the game penalizes the player for neglecting his stronghold when he knows it will come under attack.  Not acting on that advance notice indicates the player is too lazy to defend his property and doesn't really care what happens to it, imo.  So it is only fitting that in his absence his paid defenders abandon their posts and don't do their jobs (if the Lord of the castle doesn't care, why should they?)--and stuff gets knocked down and has to be rebuilt, etc., at considerable expense.  I learned early in the game that I needed to participate with the defense of the stronghold if I was going to bother to rebuild it in the first place.  It's only logical.  Complaining about it seems like complaining about the color of the sky in the game--it is what it is, you you either play the game as it is or you choose not to.

I think this is the problem though: people don't WANT the property!  Stuff gets knocked down?  Why should they care if they chose not to take it over?  They didn't accept ownership.  They are not being lazy but you are right in that they don't care what happens to it, that's what people are saying.  If you are rebuilding it then fine, that's what I do too (even though the Stronghold needs serious work since it's not fleshed out enough), but it's the people who are not interested in rebuilding it that have an issue: they are unable to avoid paying out for it because they get charged for a ruin being attacked...  I think it's fair that if someone ditches it then they don't have to pay for it's upkeep, they are choosing not to get invested in or benefit from that part of the game.

Edited September 22, 2015 by FlintlockJazz

[gkathellar]

 

 

 

I also think it's a good thing when the game penalizes the player for neglecting his stronghold when he knows it will come under attack. Not acting on that advance notice indicates the player is too lazy to defend his property and doesn't really care what happens to it, imo. So it is only fitting that in his absence his paid defenders abandon their posts and don't do their jobs (if the Lord of the castle doesn't care, why should they?)--and stuff gets knocked down and has to be rebuilt, etc., at considerable expense. I learned early in the game that I needed to participate with the defense of the stronghold if I was going to bother to rebuild it in the first place. It's only logical. Complaining about it seems like complaining about the color of the sky in the game--it is what it is, you you either play the game as it is or you choose not to.

I think this is the problem though: people don't WANT the property! Stuff gets knocked down? Why should they care if they chose not to take it over? They didn't accept ownership. They are not being lazy but you are right in that they don't care what happens to it, that's what people are saying. If you are rebuilding it then fine, that's what I do too (even though the Stronghold needs serious work since it's not fleshed out enough), but it's the people who are not interested in rebuilding it that have an issue: they are unable to avoid paying out for it because they get charged for a ruin being attacked... I think it's fair that if someone ditches it then they don't have to pay for it's upkeep, they are choosing not to get invested in or benefit from that part of the game.

Yeah, pretty much. I'd like a deeper stronghold that's more integral to the story, but if the idea is that we don't have one because some players dislike strongholds and gated content, then why are those players forced to take care of the place? It's a "nobody wins" solution.

[Lord_Mord]

 

Yeah, pretty much. I'd like a deeper stronghold that's more integral to the story, but if the idea is that we don't have one because some players dislike strongholds and gated content, then why are those players forced to take care of the place? It's a "nobody wins" solution.

 

It could be integral to the story, but still optional. Maybe it could be an alternative to join a faction or something like that.

[Oralaina]

 

 

I also think it's a good thing when the game penalizes the player for neglecting his stronghold when he knows it will come under attack.  Not acting on that advance notice indicates the player is too lazy to defend his property and doesn't really care what happens to it, imo.  So it is only fitting that in his absence his paid defenders abandon their posts and don't do their jobs (if the Lord of the castle doesn't care, why should they?)--and stuff gets knocked down and has to be rebuilt, etc., at considerable expense.  I learned early in the game that I needed to participate with the defense of the stronghold if I was going to bother to rebuild it in the first place.  It's only logical.  Complaining about it seems like complaining about the color of the sky in the game--it is what it is, you you either play the game as it is or you choose not to.

I think this is the problem though: people don't WANT the property!  Stuff gets knocked down?  Why should they care if they chose not to take it over?  They didn't accept ownership.  They are not being lazy but you are right in that they don't care what happens to it, that's what people are saying.  If you are rebuilding it then fine, that's what I do too (even though the Stronghold needs serious work since it's not fleshed out enough), but it's the people who are not interested in rebuilding it that have an issue: they are unable to avoid paying out for it because they get charged for a ruin being attacked...  I think it's fair that if someone ditches it then they don't have to pay for it's upkeep, they are choosing not to get invested in or benefit from that part of the game.

 

 

It isn't that I don't want the property, guys.  Not at all.  I'm perfectly happy with it, and with spending money on it as I stated earlier.  I'm NOT happy about stopping another process to haul up to Caed Nua when I've hired PERFECTLY USEFUL PEOPLE to boost the security of the place, and they can't seem to handle 5 or 6 invaders.

 

As an example, when I'm involved in clearing the Battery I do not even want to have to think about something else.  Especially something that takes a couple of days travel time to handle.  Besides, since we're suspending disbelief already (because cleared maps stay cleared etc.) it would suit me better if there was another instruction set that allowed me to barter for time before I have to deal with a scrubby bunch of gits from wherever.  Or even if it was possible for the RNG to win one of those auto-resolves once in a while....

 

And btw, this is the ONLY complaint I have about this game so far, so how about not lumping me with the rest, hmm?

Edited September 22, 2015 by Oralaina

[Gunnar.Maluf]

One simple way to integrate it is to award the Stronghold as a quest reward. For instance for those who would complete knights of the crucible quests.

Or any other faction's quests. 

 

The way we get it is very dull and very early in the game. You just walk in and it's yours.

 

I don't like the current mechanism of invoking the player to solve things in the Stronghold. 

 

This would be awesome if integrated into the second part of Radric's keep quest.

 

 

Instead of the party going to the Raedric's Keep to defeat him in the last battle, he could go into Caed Nua and the battle happen inside Caed Nua's main hall.

 

 

Edited September 22, 2015 by Gunnar.Maluf

[Oralaina]

One simple way to integrate it is to award the Stronghold as a quest reward. For instance for those who would complete knights of the crucible quests.

Or any other faction's quests. 

 

The way we get it is very dull and very early in the game. You just walk in and it's yours.

 

I don't like the current mechanism of invoking the player to solve things in the Stronghold. 

 

This would be awesome if integrated into the second part of Radric's keep quest.

 

 

Instead of the party going to the Raedric's Keep to defeat him in the last battle, he could go into Caed Nua and the battle happen inside Caed Nua's main hall.

 

 

That would be cool!

[Christliar]

It's a catch-22 basically. The main argument is that important, meaningful content shouldn't be gated behind a stronghold. They do have a point though, because a stronghold is somewhat different gameplay and veers towards other genres. That's why the stronghold should be optional. Josh argues that it's nearly impossible to create meaningful and coherent with everything else content, but also to be optional.

Edited September 22, 2015 by Christliar

[iLurk]

I liked the stronghold in Dragon Age Awakening, you get to oversee provinces and there's a small politics that may cause you problems and you also need to upgrade your stronghold by doing a few quests like finding materials to upgrade your troops armors and weapons, finding enough ores to upgrade the walls and walling off the underground entrance. Everything affects the survival rate and affects the ending IIRC.

 

I didn't play DAI all that long but I remember that I enjoyed the stronghold. you could craft all kinds of items and get a lot of people in there which you govern, it felt a lot livelier or something.

 

Edit: Stronghold doesn't seem to affect anything in the main game IIRC, If you have a high prestige from stronghold why not at least let it help by granting me an audience with the Duc instead a requirement to side with one of the factions in Defiance Bay or Lady Web. A lot of people said to make trade agreements with different stores in the game and expand the items in the stronghold or something.

 

I read that Josh is planning to do something about the stronghold in part 2 of White March so I hope it will be great.

Edited September 22, 2015 by iLurk

[MisterLovejoy]

I am lovin the stronghold in PoE. It's great and adds a peripheral aspect to gameplay that's interesting.

 

Sorry that it doesn't have a room with a dance floor and disco lights to make it "fun".

 

(Hmmm....Alternately, you could have a bunch of chanters chanting Donna Summer tunes while some wizards throw Alkemyr's around and the barkeeps serve sonnread ****tails with springberry garnish. Now THAT wouldn't be boring...)

[iLurk]

Yeah, you are an imbecile.

 

I didn't say to turn the stronghold to a brothel, just a better more livelier place. The visitors can only throw a line or two, prisoners either rot, escape or sold off to an imaginary person, taxes come from an imaginary place and always bandits take a percentage of it. Stores re-stock the same thing over and over from experience when I played it when it first came out so apologies if its changed.

 

At least the Fighter's stronghold in BG2 had you solving problems with the commoners and overseeing repairs when there was a flood etc.. and even raising and lowering taxes and it affected how your imaginary subjects felt about you.

[the_dog_days]

Just throwing this out there, but DA:I is a perfect example of a stronghold done poorly. The developers tried to make it central to the plot but it becomes nothing more than a place to do your crafting and talk to companions after finding it.

[jsaving]

Well, look -- the stronghold is in the game because it was a stretch goal.  While everyone agrees it could have been better than it was, every day spent on improving the stronghold would have meant one less day devoted to other aspects of the game.  I certainly wouldn't have wanted the devs to spend less time on joinable NPCs or side quests or the talent system, for example -- I'd like to see those (and many other) aspects of PoE improve too.  Nor would I have wanted to see the release date get pushed back so that there would be a better stronghold system in the game.  So overall, I think a bare-bones stronghold system was a reasonable design choice for PoE, though I do think there is room for a much richer/deeper stronghold system in WM2 and/or PoE2.      

[MisterLovejoy]

Yeah, you are an imbecile.

 

I didn't say to turn the stronghold to a brothel, just a better more livelier place. The visitors can only throw a line or two, prisoners either rot, escape or sold off to an imaginary person, taxes come from an imaginary place and always bandits take a percentage of it. Stores re-stock the same thing over and over from experience when I played it when it first came out so apologies if its changed.

 

At least the Fighter's stronghold in BG2 had you solving problems with the commoners and overseeing repairs when there was a flood etc.. and even raising and lowering taxes and it affected how your imaginary subjects felt about you.

Ive played every BG aspect plus all the DA games, plus a myriad of other xbox, PS and pc rpgs and this stronghold works just fine in context with the game and is not even slightly boring. Good and easy and doesn't OVERLY interfere with gameplay. I mean, if you want to manage a stronghold, play Stronghold.

 

You need to just enjoy the game and keep that yapper shut tightly.

[Flix]

I liked the stronghold in Dragon Age Awakening, you get to oversee provinces and there's a small politics that may cause you problems and you also need to upgrade your stronghold by doing a few quests like finding materials to upgrade your troops armors and weapons, finding enough ores to upgrade the walls and walling off the underground entrance. Everything affects the survival rate and affects the ending IIRC.

 

Good point.  That's actually an example of a stronghold so intimately tied into the campaign that it really didn't even register in my mind as a stronghold in the same sense as Caed Nua, even though that's exactly what it is.  Just for the record I don't have any problems with Caed Nua, I just want more interactivity.

Edited September 22, 2015 by Flix

[Madscientist]

We have continued our discussion in the Larian forums and this is my result regarding PoE:

 

 

 

OK, lets bring together ludonarrative dissonance, RPG and stronghold in an example.

This is how it is done in PoE:
- Somebody tells you that the owner of a castle could help you.
- You meet him, he tells you where to go next but you have to kill him.
- The ghost in the throne tells you that she wants a new master and you should rebuild the ruin.
- You agree and become the owner of a castle that costs you lots of money even if you ignore it and that does not give you a significant reward.

That makes sense:
- You tell the ghost: "Sorry, I need to find someone and I know where to go next. I need to do it fast or I go insane. Keep your f*** ruin and find another master."

This is how it should be done:
- When she asks you, you have the option to take the stronghold or to refuse it with the words written above. If you refuse you will not pay a single coin for the whole thing but you can return and explore the dungeon if you like.

Note that this refers only to how you get the stronghold. I does not talk about how you can interact with it (which is also bad in PoE.)

 

 

 

This would make the stronghold truely optional without changing the rest of the game.

[Alexander1]

I liked the stronghold in Dragon Age Awakening, you get to oversee provinces and there's a small politics that may cause you problems and you also need to upgrade your stronghold by doing a few quests like finding materials to upgrade your troops armors and weapons, finding enough ores to upgrade the walls and walling off the underground entrance. Everything affects the survival rate and affects the ending IIRC.

 

I didn't play DAI all that long but I remember that I enjoyed the stronghold. you could craft all kinds of items and get a lot of people in there which you govern, it felt a lot livelier or something.

 

Edit: Stronghold doesn't seem to affect anything in the main game IIRC, If you have a high prestige from stronghold why not at least let it help by granting me an audience with the Duc instead a requirement to side with one of the factions in Defiance Bay or Lady Web. A lot of people said to make trade agreements with different stores in the game and expand the items in the stronghold or something.

 

I read that Josh is planning to do something about the stronghold in part 2 of White March so I hope it will be great.

 

 

I agree with you on many points.  I think the reason why Caed Nua doesn't have the same "feel" is because the only people in it are either guards, shop-keepers, or a lone visitor in the throne room.  There are no servants, no people talking, no peasants or disputes to resolve, no petitioners, no "should we do this or should we do this" kinds of interactions.  Sid Meier once said (paraphrasing) that there are three kinds of mechanics -- either where the player is having fun, the programmer is having fun, or the game itself is having fun.  Basically, If the player is seeing threats to the castle, has different options to resolve them, and chooses how the threat is resolved, that's the player having fun.  If the programmer creates all the content and the player is just observing, that's the programmer having fun.  Finally, if the programming itself is designed to resolve those issues using the best option, that's the game having fun. 

 

In the current game, Caed Nua seems a mixture of two of these concepts.  For me, the best parts have been defending the castle on my own, fighting alongside my hirelings, collecting bounties and choosing what upgrades I want to build, because that's me playing the game and enjoying it.

 

But there are other instances that, while based on my security/prestige levels, are otherwise completely out of my hands -- I get reports that say "so-and-so was attacked by bandits but your patrols intervened" and that's sort of  fun because I get to see the consequences of my choices, but less fun because I'm not nearly as involved. 

 

What I'd like to see are more people in Caed Nua -- not just shopkeepers or guards, but servants, citizens, petitioners and feuding locals who present me with more choices -- not just security checks or prestige changes, but actually options that make me feel like I'm more involved in the kingdom's governing.

 

That might make the stronghold feel more "alive" as you put it, and give the player more of a feeling of involvement in the story.