Devil of Caroc far worse than other rogues? (gameplay discussion only, avoid story spoilers pls)

[abaris]

 

And what is bad about Zahua other than the drugged up tribal schtick? With heavy armor and fists or weapons he does great. I've got him in the Sanguine Plate, Shod in Faith boots and Durgan enhanced Tide Fall greatsword and he is a monster.

 

There's really nothing bad about him. With the right equipment he's easily one of the strongest characters you will ever get.

[Elerond]

Why is she worse than other Rogues?

 

Make a Rogue with the same stats and place them in plate mail to get comparable DR. Her armor speed reduction is only 40% instead of the 50% from plate. She is not a dress wearing glass cannon, give her Weapon and Shield style, the retaliate buckler and a good Sabre with Fellbore for an alpha strike and she kick's ass.

 

Disease immunity might not be that great but there is a lot of poison around. Compared to broken super cheese that is Moon Godlike's AoE heal three times per encounter, everything is weak.

 

And what is bad about Zahua other than the drugged up tribal schtick? With heavy armor and fists or weapons he does great. I've got him in the Sanguine Plate, Shod in Faith boots and Durgan enhanced Tide Fall greatsword and he is a monster.

 

She has fewer ability points than characters should have and her armor isn't as good as plate armor (it has 4 points lower DR, meaning that it is only as good as breast plate that give -40% to speed) and it does not have special enchantments that you can find from armors that make most builds just objectively better. Her racial ability is ok, but her racial negatives hurt hear ability be rogue much more than her racial ability benefits her, which mean if you do the math that she is objectively weaker than normal rogue build in same role would be. Of course such don't really matter in this game that much, but that also don't change the fact that she is mechanically worse than normal rogues.

[gkathellar]

 

Why is she worse than other Rogues?

 

Make a Rogue with the same stats and place them in plate mail to get comparable DR. Her armor speed reduction is only 40% instead of the 50% from plate. She is not a dress wearing glass cannon, give her Weapon and Shield style, the retaliate buckler and a good Sabre with Fellbore for an alpha strike and she kick's ass.

 

Disease immunity might not be that great but there is a lot of poison around. Compared to broken super cheese that is Moon Godlike's AoE heal three times per encounter, everything is weak.

 

And what is bad about Zahua other than the drugged up tribal schtick? With heavy armor and fists or weapons he does great. I've got him in the Sanguine Plate, Shod in Faith boots and Durgan enhanced Tide Fall greatsword and he is a monster.

 

She has fewer ability points than characters should have and her armor isn't as good as plate armor (it has 4 points lower DR, meaning that it is only as good as breast plate that give -40% to speed) and it does not have special enchantments that you can find from armors that make most builds just objectively better. Her racial ability is ok, but her racial negatives hurt hear ability be rogue much more than her racial ability benefits her, which mean if you do the math that she is objectively weaker than normal rogue build in same role would be. Of course such don't really matter in this game that much, but that also don't change the fact that she is mechanically worse than normal rogues.

 

She also can't really excel at any mechanical niche for rogues which is actually good. She can do the Riposte/Retaliation + Deep Wounds thing, but that's really the only area where her armor isn't a strict nerf, and while that's an okayish build, it's not actually strong by any means.

[Torm51]

 

 

Upgrade her armor to at least exceptional, slap on a +2 attribute, slash or pierce proof for another +4 (like all armor enhancing a DR that is boosted by the base armor boosts your enchantment as well), and then use Durgan steel on her to drop armor penalty to only 25% but protects like plate.

 

Between her heavy armor and high resolve she was made for tanking. Give her a shield and a reinforcing exhortation and she is around 115 deflection which is decidedly not squishy.

 

For further enhancement durgan steel her shield and weapon for another +30% attack speed buff.

 

From a math standpoint she does fine as long as you embrace her strengths, which is tankyness.

 

From a role play and voice acting standpoint she is a definite keeper.

But still she will be worse than any normal rogue

That's about the size of it. When you have to use valuable Durgan Steel that you could be using on a better character to make the Devil competent for a rogue at a role that rogues in general don't excel at, you've got a bit of a problem.

 

At least she's a decent candidate for the Deep Wounds/Retaliation combo. That's something.

 

Dude shes a good front liner that hits super hard and isn't your run of the mill weakling rogue.  I toss her reinforcing Exhortation and her deflection is 115 + and she beats the crap out of mobs with her 100 accuracy. I only Play Trial of Iron PoTD and use her this way and she mashes.  Her + a Wizard debuffing and deathblows turned the Alpine Dragon into PASTE with Bittercut it wasn't even close 50 + damage hits on a high DR mob LOL

 

People cry constantly on this forum about none optimal characters and its like dude use the character with its strength and its damn good.  Can YOU MAKE A BETTER OPTIMIZED ROGUE...YES but WHO CARES.

Edited September 28, 2015 by Torm51

[FlintlockJazz]

One thing to consider as well: this is White March Part One, it's one half of the expansion pack which doesn't even have Zahua's questline.  I would not be surprised if there are 'upgrades' you are intended to get to her body, perhaps as part of her questline that is not yet in the game (people have said her questline seems rather short, maybe it's not actually finished yet).  Either way, she seems fine to me, perhaps not the bestest rogue evar, but she gets the job done.

[AndreaColombo]

But why gimp her with less stat points than anyone else and a racial trait that is more detrimental than beneficial? Plus of course the fact that you don't get to choose her armor and therefore miss out on the special properties that unique armors offer (and you get absolutely nothing to make up for it.)

 

Unless the devs really have something big in mind for her in part II, she's just gratuitously gimped.

Edited September 28, 2015 by AndreaColombo

[Torm51]

Apologies if I came off as a jerk with the Caps I was just meaning to emphasize.

[Torm51]

But why gimp her with less stat points than anyone else and a racial trait that is more detrimental than beneficial? Plus of course the fact that you don't get to choose her armor and therefore miss out on the special properties that unique armors offer (and you get absolutely nothing to make up for it.)

 

Unless the devs really have something big in mind for her in part II, she's just gratuitously gimped.

I don't consider myself an awesome player but I do play the game successfully on the hardest difficulty without cheese and she performs well.  I don't get it.

[AndreaColombo]

She performs well despite her shortcomings. I'm not questioning her performance so much as the reason for the shortcomings, which just seem to be unmotivated.

[Cottonmouth]

Clearly, the White Forge should allow players to spend all Durgan ingots into recasting the Devil anew. Infused with Durgan Steel and magic, she would have no armor penalty, 20 DR to crush, slash, pierce and fire, an extra 30 to deflection, 18 dexterity and might and a twice per encounter ability called 'Bronze Terror' which is Gaze of the Adragan with double the AOE, centered on the Devil. To balance things, the transformation would however remove her decorative bronze breasts.

Edited September 28, 2015 by Cottonmouth

[gkathellar]

 

 

 

 

Upgrade her armor to at least exceptional, slap on a +2 attribute, slash or pierce proof for another +4 (like all armor enhancing a DR that is boosted by the base armor boosts your enchantment as well), and then use Durgan steel on her to drop armor penalty to only 25% but protects like plate.

 

Between her heavy armor and high resolve she was made for tanking. Give her a shield and a reinforcing exhortation and she is around 115 deflection which is decidedly not squishy.

 

For further enhancement durgan steel her shield and weapon for another +30% attack speed buff.

 

From a math standpoint she does fine as long as you embrace her strengths, which is tankyness.

 

From a role play and voice acting standpoint she is a definite keeper.

But still she will be worse than any normal rogue

That's about the size of it. When you have to use valuable Durgan Steel that you could be using on a better character to make the Devil competent for a rogue at a role that rogues in general don't excel at, you've got a bit of a problem.

 

At least she's a decent candidate for the Deep Wounds/Retaliation combo. That's something.

Dude shes a good front liner that hits super hard and isn't your run of the mill weakling rogue. I toss her reinforcing Exhortation and her deflection is 115 + and she beats the crap out of mobs with her 100 accuracy. I only Play Trial of Iron PoTD and use her this way and she mashes. Her + a Wizard debuffing and deathblows turned the Alpine Dragon into PASTE with Bittercut it wasn't even close 50 + damage hits on a high DR mob LOL

 

People cry constantly on this forum about none optimal characters and its like dude use the character with its strength and its damn good. Can YOU MAKE A BETTER OPTIMIZED ROGUE...YES but WHO CARES.

Great, more power to you. But my point isn't that you can't use her well, because you can. My point is that she's extremely typecast into one of the less effective rogue niches, and isn't even decked out to be especially good in said niche. There doesn't seem to be any particular reason for this.

 

You've seen me on the Characters board, Torm - I'm always quick to speak for balanced builds and the fact that you don't need to optimize heavily for PotD. I'm not saying she should be the most minmaxed NPC ever. I'm saying she shouldn't be walking around with a bunch of nerfs that you have to invest in mitigating, especially without any clear reason.

 

To balance things, the transformation would however remove her decorative bronze breasts.

*slow clap*

[Torm51]

 

 

 

 

Upgrade her armor to at least exceptional, slap on a +2 attribute, slash or pierce proof for another +4 (like all armor enhancing a DR that is boosted by the base armor boosts your enchantment as well), and then use Durgan steel on her to drop armor penalty to only 25% but protects like plate.

 

Between her heavy armor and high resolve she was made for tanking. Give her a shield and a reinforcing exhortation and she is around 115 deflection which is decidedly not squishy.

 

For further enhancement durgan steel her shield and weapon for another +30% attack speed buff.

 

From a math standpoint she does fine as long as you embrace her strengths, which is tankyness.

 

From a role play and voice acting standpoint she is a definite keeper.

But still she will be worse than any normal rogue

That's about the size of it. When you have to use valuable Durgan Steel that you could be using on a better character to make the Devil competent for a rogue at a role that rogues in general don't excel at, you've got a bit of a problem.

 

At least she's a decent candidate for the Deep Wounds/Retaliation combo. That's something.

Dude shes a good front liner that hits super hard and isn't your run of the mill weakling rogue. I toss her reinforcing Exhortation and her deflection is 115 + and she beats the crap out of mobs with her 100 accuracy. I only Play Trial of Iron PoTD and use her this way and she mashes. Her + a Wizard debuffing and deathblows turned the Alpine Dragon into PASTE with Bittercut it wasn't even close 50 + damage hits on a high DR mob LOL

 

People cry constantly on this forum about none optimal characters and its like dude use the character with its strength and its damn good. Can YOU MAKE A BETTER OPTIMIZED ROGUE...YES but WHO CARES.

Great, more power to you. But my point isn't that you can't use her well, because you can. My point is that she's extremely typecast into one of the less effective rogue niches, and isn't even decked out to be especially good in said niche. There doesn't seem to be any particular reason for this.

 

You've seen me on the Characters board, Torm - I'm always quick to speak for balanced builds and the fact that you don't need to optimize heavily for PotD. I'm not saying she should be the most minmaxed NPC ever. I'm saying she shouldn't be walking around with a bunch of nerfs that you have to invest in mitigating, especially without any clear reason.

 

To balance things, the transformation would however remove her decorative bronze breasts.

*slow clap*

 

I know I know.  I get too excited sometimes about this min/max stuff.  I understand your point and concur.

Edited September 28, 2015 by Torm51

[MunoValente]

My biggest peeve with her is that you can't restore health.  I was using her as melee DPS with Grey Sleeper and she was doing well, but she was getting knocked out a lot, but only after she had done a ton of damage, but she was always the first person low enough on health to make me want to camp and I couldn't use wounding binding or field triage on her.  If anything I think her background should make her easier to restore to health, it's not like she's bleeding out all of the place and needs natural healing process.  Throw her a built in wounding binding type of ability as part of her background and I'd be happy.

[Luma Akasha]

I think there is a basic misunderstanding. No one, at least as far as I can tell, is asking that she be murder-bot 5000. We are questioning why she was intentionally given 2 less attribute points, inferior armor and a few odd deficits compared to the rest of the companions. Can she perfon adequately? Yes. Can you beat PTOD with just your PC and her? Sure. Performance isn't the issue. Inconsistent character design is.

[huang]

Well maybe her stats are still going to improve once her quest is completed.

[hilfazer]

 We are questioning why she was intentionally given 2 less attribute points, inferior armor and a few odd deficits compared to the rest of the companions. 

 

She was created by master Galvino, not by gods.

 

 

BTW Zahua misses 3 points. Looks like suffering doesn't make you stronger after all 

[Tomice]

I think there is a basic misunderstanding. No one, at least as far as I can tell, is asking that she be murder-bot 5000. We are questioning why she was intentionally given 2 less attribute points, inferior armor and a few odd deficits compared to the rest of the companions. Can she perfon adequately? Yes. Can you beat PTOD with just your PC and her? Sure. Performance isn't the issue. Inconsistent character design is.

 

Exactly, this is the best summary so far.

 

I don't care about perfect balance, I accuse the devs of laziness.

Her backstory would have offered several opportunities for unique and interesting gameplay. But instead, she's just a normal rogue who's stuck in bad armor, minus some stat points, minus a decent racial trait.

 

It's similar for Pallegina - they "forgot" to give her order a unique ability, making gameplay with her less interesting than with a custom paladin.

[FlintlockJazz]

I did wonder why her 'body' was just a breastplate and didn't give anything special.  Maybe

 

 

Her creator isn't as great as he makes out?  He's made quite a few duds after all.