The current refugee wave in Europe

[Elerond]

Well, if a country is under strain due to its existing populace, adding more people certainly runs the risk of just adding to that. Hard to really generalize all these migrants anyway, whether it's as people who will only bring good or bad. Though if countries sift through them before they take them in, and even a bit after, should work out same old.

 

If we look European countries that are under strain because of existing populace we will find that it is most cases because age structure in those countries is starting to become too top heavy, so flood of under 35 year old refugees will actually lessen that strain during next couple decades, but of course on short-term it can make things worse especially if the refugee flow continues to be uncontrolled.

[Ineth]

you do have a surprising amount of data showing that immigration plays a positive impact on economies, not a negative one.  

 

It depends on the 'kind' of immigrants.

 

They tend to have a very positive impact if they either...

• were already part of the wealthy/successful/highly-educated class of their country of origin

  (e.g. most Muslim immigrants to the US), or

   

• are willing to work hard and take unpleasant jobs that others won't

  (e.g. most Mexican immigrants to the US, and Polish immigrants to western EU countries).

They tend to have not such a positive impact on the economy if they...

• are poor and uneducated, are hostile towards the culture of their host country, and come for the welfare benefits rather than for work

  (e.g. many Muslim immigrants to the EU).

The reason why the US gets more immigrants with a positive economic impact, has probably to do with

1. its smaller and less easy to exploit welfare system,
2. the fact that people abroad still believe in the American Dream (even if most Americans themselves don't),
3. the natural barrier known as the Atlantic Ocean which separates it from Africa and the Middle East,
4. its stricter immigration and naturalization laws.

In any case, this is why Europeans tend to be apprehensive of immigration from Muslim countries, whereas Americans don't understand what the European's problem is: They are used to very different demographics of Muslim immigrants, so they're kind of talking past each other.

 

In the current crisis, though, I believe the fears expressed by Woldan et al are misplaced.

The Syrian refugees are not your normal welfare migrants whom you've made bad experiences with, they are people from all walks of life who have been displaced by a civil war or by political/religious persecution. Many of them will be hard-working and industrious people who will likely contribute meaningfully to their host countries.

Edited September 25, 2015 by Ineth

[Drowsy Emperor]

 

Numbersboy: Chill already, your righteous fumes are clouding my screen. It is you who have prove how radically changing entire demographics in Europe with people from the third world in the name helping is the best outcome out of all options. 

 

No, bro. In fact, it's you who has to prove how fulfilling your ****ing obligations with regards to basic international law (cf. Geneva Convention on Refugees), not to mention showing a modicum of humanity is going to "radically change the entire demographics in Europe", let alone the rest of the tripe about the end of Yurop, Allahu Akbars taking over the world and so on, that you have been spouting lately. Take your time, I'll be here.

 

My screen is fine, by the way. You sure it's not your own bile?

 

 

I'm surprised that you of all people would be pushing the party line. Most of these immigrants aren't refugees. That has been established at this point. Those that are were already taken care of in countries around Syria and merely decided to move to countries where they believe they'll have access to jobs or welfare. What is a Pakistani fleeing from? 

 

Back in the day I watched streams of refugees come into Belgrade when Croatia ethnically cleansed Serbs from Krajina. Endless lines of people with utter desperation and fear on their faces, eyes dead and empty, their old rickety cars and tractors filled to the brim with what belongings they could gather before they had to flee. It was mentally scarring to watch, let alone be a part of that. 

 

Coincidentally, these "Syrian refugees" of today are coming en masse through Belgrade on their way to the Hungarian border so I don't have to go more than a few streets to actually see them as they've been given tents and set up in the very center of the city. It looks nothing like what I saw back in the day, no fear or desperation, no belongings with them (meaning they've been left somewhere safe) - more like organized tourism on mass scale. They are not fleeing from anywhere now if (some of them) ever were, merely relocating. The pathetic pictures in the media are exceptions (they really love small children, even though there are very few of them, compared to the overwhelming numbers of healthy 20-30 years old men) picked to provoke a certain response from the public. 

 

As for a concrete solution to the Syrian crisis that doesn't involve relocating the ME to Europe - its simply the opposite of what the west has been doing. Stop trying to destroy Assad merely because he's an independent leader, stop supporting ISIS and other rebel groups, get the SA to behave and help Assad take back control of Syria. 

This refugee problem is the result of a few EU countries kowtowing to the US's endless interventionism. The local (ME) factors won't take a **** without the US saying they can, so even though they're a part of the problem - its because they've been allowed to do so.

 

The entirety of Europe should not have to suffer consequences because a few unaccountable **** in Brussels thought it would be appropriate to topple yet another ruler of a foreign country.

Edited September 25, 2015 by Drowsy Emperor

[Meshugger]

 

Numbersboy: Chill already, your righteous fumes are clouding my screen. It is you who have prove how radically changing entire demographics in Europe with people from the third world in the name helping is the best outcome out of all options. 

 

No, bro. In fact, it's you who has to prove how fulfilling your ****ing obligations with regards to basic international law (cf. Geneva Convention on Refugees), not to mention showing a modicum of humanity is going to "radically change the entire demographics in Europe", let alone the rest of the tripe about the end of Yurop, Allahu Akbars taking over the world and so on, that you have been spouting lately. Take your time, I'll be here.

 

My screen is fine, by the way. You sure it's not your own bile?

 

 

Bro, why so hostile with all that moral indignation and cursing? You as well as anyone should know that what you're doing is effective as two repellent magnets.

 

First, if this was only or mostly women, children and the elderly from Syria  supplied by the UNCHR, no would argue against this, but when you hear that around 1) 70-77% of them are men in their best fighting age and 2) several refugee centers and other syrian refugees are complaining that Europe is being had because about half of them are really from north africa and other arab countries you probably wish to put on the brakes and check things more thouroughly and send each and every man of fighting capability back.

 

Secondly, this whole situation of suffering is perpetuated by EU and Merkel for being complete idiots or simply downright evil when they claim that every Syrian is welcomed in, all while there are about 30 000 human traffickers in Turkey that suddenly experience trouble to handle the sudden surge in demand. What we see is only the beginning, once the world knows that everyone (well mostly everyone) is welcomed into Europe. Then we will have quite the trouble on our hands.

 

Source: http://blogs.channel4.com/factcheck/factcheck-europes-migration-crisis/21469

Source: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/refugee-crisis-european-leaders-warned-that-greatest-tide-of-migrants-is-yet-to-come-10515085.html

Source:  http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-09-18/europes-ethnic-revolution-it-will-never-be-same-again

 

Then there's the question on what kind of values that are enriching the host countries, to one ones surprise they have already caused quite the schisms with their intolerance to separation of church and state, womens rights and general plurality of opinions. The mutilation of female genetalia and thinking that death penalty for apostacy is morally paramount will not help to create a more open and welcoming society. Theo Van Gogh, Charlie Hebdo, Lars Vilks and the 1400 raped girls in Rotherham are slowly being normalized with the people that are already here.

 

Source: http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-beliefs-about-sharia/

Source: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2013/05/01/64-percent-of-muslims-in-egypt-and-pakistan-support-the-death-penalty-for-leaving-islam/

Source: http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-south-yorkshire-28939089

 

There's also the breakdown of public trust and safety when a previously homogenous society undergoes a change to a heterogenous one without the majority population having the time to absord the people and their culture (good & bad) properly. When people no longer feel like that they can rely on each other, basic instincts of tribal survival kicks in: Men will simply use violence as an acceptable means instead of democratic institutions, they will be more likely to kill people outside the tribe and most certainly rape the women that they do not feel belong to 'their' tribe. With the looming economic downturn around the corner, things will simply not get better:

 

Source: http://uk.reuters.com/article/2015/08/09/uk-sweden-grenades-idUKKCN0QE09F20150809

Source: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/sweden/7278532/Jews-leave-Swedish-city-after-sharp-rise-in-anti-Semitic-hate-crimes.html

Source: http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/6527/migrants-rape-germany

Source: http://www.boston.com/news/education/higher/articles/2007/08/04/the_downside_of_diversity/ (A Harvard study on the matter)

 

But that's just the situation right now. We can always look at history, like Lebanon, Sudan, the Balkans, the split of India into India, Bangladesh and Pakistan just to name a few.

 

Personally, i do not believe that mass immigration will solve human suffering that much:

 

 

There has to be other options available instead of altruism our own societies into oblivion. I know it is selfish and too much to ask for example for France being the homeland of the French people as we know it and similar to other countries, but that's what i wish for. So without dwelving too much into dwindling birth rates of the native populations in corresponding to immigrant ones, the globalization of labor in contrast to capital and the irony of multi-culture creating a global mono-culture, i will leave you with a jovial video of this situation. You go girls!

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SBnXCotdkaE

 

P.S. Please do not try to refute the sources, instead please come up with your own sources or logical arguments that strengthens your claims. That's a more interesting conversation.

 

P.P.S. Even Dalai Lama agrees with me.

Source: https://www.rt.com/news/315467-dalai-lama-oxford-speech/

[Malcador]

Hm, Canada should take them in en masse. Not like there is any culture or identity for them to destroy.

[Rosbjerg]

Personally, i do not believe that mass immigration will solve human suffering that much

 

On that I think almost any rational being can agree. It's just that the current rate doesn't really meet the standards of what I would call "mass immigration".

 

Closing our borders will not solve this issue either, we need to help them help themselves. 

[Meshugger]

 

Personally, i do not believe that mass immigration will solve human suffering that much

 

On that I think almost any rational being can agree. It's just that the current rate doesn't really meet the standards of what I would call "mass immigration".

 

Closing our borders will not solve this issue either, we need to help them help themselves. 

 

 

I agree half-way.

 

- Strict border control should be enforced

- Immigration should not be substitute for low birth rate

- Path to citizen should be harsh, but fair

- Worker-visas should be enough for the industry to manage worker pitfalls, but no akin of H1B1-visas like in the the US

- Military action against human traffickers

- More foreign aid and better coordination with already established organisations like UNCHR

- Leave the middle east alone and stop the proxy wars already

[Malcador]

How do you make path to citizenship harsh, exactly ? Trial of Position ?

[Rosbjerg]

I agree half-way.

 

- Strict border control should be enforced

- Immigration should not be substitute for low birth rate

- Path to citizen should be harsh, but fair

- Worker-visas should be enough for the industry to manage worker pitfalls, but no akin of H1B1-visas like in the the US

- Military action against human traffickers

- More foreign aid and better coordination with already established organisations like UNCHR

- Leave the middle east alone and stop the proxy wars already

 

 

What I find interesting is that we hold values such as freedom to be universal, but safeguard nationality as if its an aristocratic right. I disagree on the principle that you or I have some special right to more resources than everyone else on this planet, purely based on birth.

 

Edit: of course that's in the larger scale of things. In the here and now, yeah I do think it's a good idea to give people something to aspire to and it can be citizenship - but there's a reason why the "American Dream" was so effective in the 1800s - we need to sell hope.

 

Definitely agree on the last points, although human trafficking won't go away no matter what you do unless you confront the reason why they come here. We're waging a cultural war - and winning - which is why you're seeing China scrambling to mount a defense by trying to create their own cultural mythology.

A lot of the backlash in the Middle East I believe comes from the constant assault on their values by a European and American cultural monopoly.. and if you go back to say Nasser, the counter cultural war he fought was extremely effective, almost creating a unified Arabia and Arabian cultural identity in the process. They really need something like that and we need to push for that too.

[Meshugger]

^You haven't happen to have watched the documentary series "The power of nightmares" recently? If not i appologize, but your point seems to echo what is said there.

[Rosbjerg]

The Adam Curtis doc? No, although his "The Century of the Self" certainly influenced my thoughts on political machinations, so that makes sense.

 

Edit: reading up on it though, no I don't agree with his views on this. I don't think there's a conspiracy here, just people who are using circumstances.

[Meshugger]

The century of the Self should be shown in classrooms. It strikes like a pierced diamond through the narrative of brainless ideologues.

Edited September 25, 2015 by Meshugger

[HoonDing]

"We're waging a cultural war - and winning -"

 

[Rosbjerg]

You say in English on an American board about western people.

[Malcador]

Well, our brands are doing well at least.

[Drowsy Emperor]

European culture is far from what it once was and in a steady decline, although there's no one but the European elites to blame for that.

 

Winning the cultural war with Coca Cola, instagram and pride parades, is like winning a nuclear war. 

[Drowsy Emperor]

You say in English on an American board about western people.

 

So do you, and you are neither English nor American.

[Rosbjerg]

 

So do you, and you are neither English nor American.

 

Yes, what did you think I meant by it? That was exactly my point. American and Anglo-Saxon culture is right now the dominant culture with the umbrella term "western culture".

[Meshugger]

 

BruceVC: what does the mayor of the town mean when he speaks of "needs"? Video-games? Access to HBO? I do not speak politically correct

Edited September 25, 2015 by Meshugger

[Elerond]

http://news.yahoo.com/finlands-no-good-disappointed-migrants-turn-back-152042061.html

 

Tornio (Finland) (AFP) - Hundreds of predominantly Iraqi migrants who have travelled through Europe to reach Finland are turning back, saying they don't want to stay in the sparsely-populated country on Europe's northern frontier because it's too cold and boring.

 

...

 

"You can tell the world I hate Finland. It's too cold, there's no tea, no restaurants, no bars, nobody on the streets, only cars," 22-year-old Muhammed told AFP in Tornio, as the mercury struggled to inch above 10 degrees Celsius (50 Fahrenheit) on a recent blustery grey day.

 

 

Should we be sorry that our country is too boring after escaping war and persecution or something like that? 

[HoonDing]

Should've gone to Saudi Arabia.

 

They wouldn't have to complain about not being served Arabic food either.

[213374U]

21something

 

What do you think is going to happen to a country if hundreds of thousands of complete strangers who won't be contributing to the country anytime soon and only cost tons of money literally invade it?

A country that is already severely plagued with inflation, ever increasing unemployment -which is already blowing the record from post-WWII out of the water-, a country whose health care system is breaking down as we speak, a country that is experiencing super high crime rates with a police force thats is absolutely incapable of dealing with it all? 

Oh, and I forgot to mention, a country where all the big companies pack their gear and leave because they can no longer afford their business due to the extreme wages they have to pay?

 

Do I really have to explain it all to you or can think for yourself here for a second? 

 

You know, once the civil unrests start, the health care system no longer exists and the economy further dwindles your refugees won't feel so happy anymore.

Thats what happens if you load a boat beyond its capacity.

 

 

It's about 20k asylum applications in Austria in 2015, not "hundreds of thousands". The recent surge (an estimated total 80k for this year by authorities) will be handled by the recently approved quota scheme, relocating most to other EU countries. Strike one.

 

Inflation, unemployment. Inflation is at ~1% currently, down from ~3% in 2012. Unemployment is 8.4%. It seems to be increasing somewhat, but it's still below the Euro area average of 10.9%. Strike two.

 

Regarding "super high crime rates": according to data, Austria is consistently placed among the safest countries in the world^{[1] [2]}. Strike three, and you're out (of touch with reality).

 

So yes, you really have to explain how we get from the current refugee situation to the failed state scenario you are advancing, because facts certainly aren't on your side. That's the slippery slope I keep mentioning: you haven't explained precisely how the end of the world is going to result from this particular issue.

 

I'll deal with DE and MeshuggerVC's posts tomorrow, if work allows.

Edited September 26, 2015 by 213374U

[Rostere]

I really do not understand what is up with complaining about "culture". I agree that the political views of migrants are important, and that we should not receive people who do not believe in democracy, equality and so on, but what else is there? If there is nothing more, then shouldn't we quit talking about "culture" and start talking about political views?

[Wrath of Dagon]

Here you go, cultural differences : http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/21/world/asia/us-soldiers-told-to-ignore-afghan-allies-abuse-of-boys.html?_r=0

[Rostere]

To think that pedophilia should be legal is a fairly political opinion in my mind.

 

What I'm saying is that it is misleading to confuse cultural and political matters. I bet not all Afghanis think sexually abusing minors should be legal. Catholicism is also a cesspit of pedophilia cover-ups, but we don't see demonstrations against Catholicism because of that - the pedophiles and pedophile enablers are implicitly assumed to be unwanted by the majority of Catholics. For some reason, we give some people that benefit of doubt, but not to others. Somehow we consider Christianity "salvageable" even though a quick read through the Old Testament reveals that it is a text which every moral person must throw onto the refuse pile. But if we learn that Mohammed married a 9-year old girl, that implies that all Muslims are necessarily pedophiles. In reality, civilized people are going to explain away the really stupid **** in their books just like Christians do with theirs. It is just a matter of spin.

 

For any culture, we want to give the benefit of doubt to as many people as possible, which means we want to rule out the people we do not want by their political opinions - we do not want to rule out anyone by their culture alone, since a person might have the exact same political opinions as is accepted here but still consider themselves as belonging to a foreign culture. Let's make this a question about politics, since culture is a too wide concept.