Attribute functionality confusion (Might for Wizard)

[Stoner]

Maybe it was discussed somewhere earlier but I'm curious to hear fresh thought and opinions about it.

 

I have finished vanilla game with 2 main characters Wizard and Barbarian, Barb was fine by all accounts but WIz is my favorite and his build bugs me to death. Can someone plaese explain me who in his or her mad and twisted imagination came to conclusion that Might must affect magical damage attacks? I try to figure out any logical explanation, but simply can't grasp it...

 

When I roleplay my bulky, half-naked, angry Barbarian it feels right and true in every aspect to threaten and demonstrate brute force both in dialog and while swinging huge, two-handed sword in combat, but when my skinny elf-mage threatning people all around, lifting then up and show muscles exacltly the same way as Barbarian does feels completely mad and out of place... Why it was even designed that way? Let's face it, most players who build Wizard will focus on DPS, maxing Might and Intellect as much as they can, but why exactly Might should affect power of casted fireball, lightning or chage off the wand? Why not make classic Intellect - spell power, Resolve - radius/duration/etc or vice versa? Resolve seriously feels like a must Atrribute for any caster, but somehow it feels underused.

 

Mage doesn't need fortitude, it feels like wasted stat, but will and concentration would fit just right in, no? It mostly affects immersion and roleplaying feeling much more than combat system itself because despite of Might being described as "spiritual strength" we get same dialog options as if we roleplay some brute warrior, and that doesn't sit well with me. 

 

All in all Pillars' both roleplaying and combat systems are almost perfect IMO, only this one little thing drives me a bit off the rails, I do not hope for any changes and I understand this is design choice but I'm curious what others think about this.

[Cantousent]

I understand the idea of thinking outside the box, but the decision to play cutesy with might always struck me as misguided. Just my thoughts as a consumer. As a gameplay mechanic, it's okay because it just spreads out the theory and number crunching between a set of stats. It *works* but it feels weird.

[globalCooldown]

I get the feeling the array of stats was toodled with so that nothing truly felt like a "dump" stat. Every stat is valuable, and you want them all, even if some are higher-priority than others.

 

As for using Might to intimidate, I think it'd be most effective if, say, two mechanically identical Might-dependent dialogue options are presented, the only difference between them is that one reads "flex your muscles to demonstrate your physical strength" while the other reads "conjure some wind and dramatic backlighting to illustrate your magic might".

[majestic]

The problem is more the inconsistent use in environment interactions and dialogue. Might could be anything from spellpower to raw strength but when "Might" gets used to initimidate people by picking them up or pushing them down or when you need might to move a boulder or a bar in interactions it really just becomes strength again. Hrm. =(

[Heijoushin]

As others have said: POE is set up so that there's no "dump stat". Everything has value for every character. From that perspective, I think it's a good, fresh idea.

 

But, as Majestic has set, it feels wrong in written interactions (with your delicate mage always wanting to pick up or punch people). This is a writing problem that's a little difficult to solve. Perhaps different threat dialogue for wizard and fighter?

 

Fighter: "I'm gonna kick your ass!"

Wizard: "I'm gonna magic missile your ass!"

[DragonKingReborn]

It's working well for me - still going on my first playthrough - and while at first I thought it was a little strange - now I'm all in on the concept.

 

As globalCooldown said, though, would be nice if the Wizards dialogue use of Might reflected their class with a little sound and light show.  Or if my rangers faithful bear, Paddington loomed up behind him to illustrate Might.  That would be fun.

[Stoner]

I agree with most part of what was said here but not quite agree with "dump stat" argument. When we build specific class there's always some must have attributes and low priority ones, when we build Wizard many guides suggest to max Might and Intellect even by removing points from, say, Costitution or Perception. Thus it virtually becomes "dump stat". If devs would switch Might function with Resolve some players may still get Might for Fortitude or some dialog/intercation options like roleplay bulky agressive mage, but switching that would sit well with more fluffy mage builds and would provide not so wierd roleplaying experience in the process IMO.

 

We cannot seriously say that every single stat works well for any class. Yes, there can be some exotic builds and game system does pretty good job at utilization of most attributes but tanky warrior would go for max Constitution than Might, they won't get Intellect no matter what and since those two attributes (MIG & CON) are very commonly used by most fighter classes also applying it to casters transforms it into must have stat for almost everyone when Intellect goes exclusive for casters, making it somewhat dump... 

 

I hope my ideas are rather clear on this one.

[Blave]

Just imagine your Wizard grabbing and picking up people with telekinesis instread of his arms. Kinda like Force Push/Choke of a Jedi/Sith.

[Leferd]

 

Seems like a viable roleplay build.

[sp3cw4r]

Might is supposed to represent both physical and spiritual strength, so it makes sense that way, but I can see the issue with scripts testing chars for physical strength (by looking at might) when in actuality they may be physically weak but spiritually strong. If that makes sense. They probably should be two different attributes because currently there is no way to differentiate.

[Rosbjerg]

I think the lore idea was that it required real strength, as in muscles, to pull the magical energies into existence. To hold them in their wild state, while your will shaped them into spells.

[KDubya]

I agree with most part of what was said here but not quite agree with "dump stat" argument. When we build specific class there's always some must have attributes and low priority ones, when we build Wizard many guides suggest to max Might and Intellect even by removing points from, say, Costitution or Perception. Thus it virtually becomes "dump stat". If devs would switch Might function with Resolve some players may still get Might for Fortitude or some dialog/intercation options like roleplay bulky agressive mage, but switching that would sit well with more fluffy mage builds and would provide not so wierd roleplaying experience in the process IMO.

 

We cannot seriously say that every single stat works well for any class. Yes, there can be some exotic builds and game system does pretty good job at utilization of most attributes but tanky warrior would go for max Constitution than Might, they won't get Intellect no matter what and since those two attributes (MIG & CON) are very commonly used by most fighter classes also applying it to casters transforms it into must have stat for almost everyone when Intellect goes exclusive for casters, making it somewhat dump... 

 

I hope my ideas are rather clear on this one.

 

Those guides are out of date with 2.0.

 

For example your wizard wants might as high as possible since it is pretty much the only thing that affects spell power. Perception affects accuracy so it will want to be high. Intellect affects your area of AoE spells as well as duration so you want this high. Dexterity affects how many actions you can perform in a given time and more actions are better so you want this high.  Resolve could be kept low but at the risk of being interrupted frequently and is a good one to think about dumping. Constitution now has 5% per point so a 3 con used to be -21% but now is -35%, dumping to a 6 con gets -20% but only gains you 4 stat points instead of the old 7. Also, with the new AI and the enemies decision to more frequently attack your casters, dumping con has a much bigger downside. Now you can't have all the stats you want maxed and have to make some choices.

 

If might only affected melee then every caster would dump it to 3 every single time.

 

The ability to hold the attention of enemies depends on being able to dish out damage so your example of a warrior will need might just as much as any other stat. Even intellect now affects the duration of a fighter's regen so no more limited consequence to dump it, you now pay a heavier price which along with other recent changes makes one question their purpose. Paladins, barbarians and monks all have need of intellect.

 

There really aren't much for dump stats anymore

[Heijoushin]

Yup, what KDubya said. Since perception switched to accuracy, I find that there are WAY too many things that I want to give my wizard. Therefore, I must compromise somewhere... therefore, the system is a success! Unlike, say Icewind dale, where every single fighter is Str 18, Con 18, Dex 18, dump the rest.

 

 

I think the lore idea was that it required real strength, as in muscles, to pull the magical energies into existence. To hold them in their wild state, while your will shaped them into spells.

 

If so, I find that very cheesy. Sure, wizards don't have to be wimpy bookworms who never exercise but... holding mystical energies in your biceps? 

Edited September 2, 2015 by Heijoushin

[Rosbjerg]

Not inside the muslces? why are you guys assuming that.. it requires will, intellect and physical strength to properly wield magic - not inside your muscles, the energies a wizard forms becomes tangible forces, asserting kinetic "kickback" on the wizard so the speak, who has to withstand them - so being stronger helps the wizard stabilize the energy.

 

But a Might 8 wizard still works, its just that a might 18 can more easily hold the energies in place, while his knowledge and skills forms the energy.

 

Cheesy however, well I don't know. Not more cheesy than pulling energy out the weave with your mind I think? As in, it's all quite cheesy when you think about it.

 

edit: Following that logic, it would of course make more sense if a physically weak but intellectual wizards magic was considerably more uncontrollable - like a wild mage - while a strong, but not that academic wizard, could applicate his magic much more focused. Perhaps that was their idea with intellect affecting radius? In any case, I definitely agree that the mechanics could use some polish (and explanation) - but I'm a fan of them trying something new.

[drunetovich]

Now try to apply this logic to firing a rifle. What you gonna do? Pull the trigger so hard that the bullets will fly faster?

[Rosbjerg]

Now try to apply this logic to firing a rifle. What you gonna do? Pull the trigger so hard that the bullets will fly faster?

 

You never held a rifle I assume? Strength is very important to stabilize the weapon (which is somewhat important in aiming after all), if you're not strong enough you will have trouble holding it still and get uncontrollable recoil.

 

Especially Renaissance era weaponry, made from heavy and cumbersome materiel.

[gkathellar]

Might is supposed to represent both physical and spiritual strength

Not quite. Might is spiritual strength, and physical strength is one of the many things that comes from spiritual strength.

 

Everything in PoE runs on soul power.

[pi2repsion]

Maybe it was discussed somewhere earlier but I'm curious to hear fresh thought and opinions about it.

 

I have finished vanilla game with 2 main characters Wizard and Barbarian, Barb was fine by all accounts but WIz is my favorite and his build bugs me to death. Can someone plaese explain me who in his or her mad and twisted imagination came to conclusion that Might must affect magical damage attacks? I try to figure out any logical explanation, but simply can't grasp it...

Quite simply, the developers chose to use a different system for their CRPG world than the more common D&D inspired one, which has led many players to mistakenly believe that might = physical strength and on the basis of that wondered what the hell was going on. There is a reason, however, that it is named might, not strength: Namely that might isn't equal physical strength in the POE universe.

 

There are many other ways to create game systems for fantasy worlds, and Pillars of Eternity uses one that is suited for the whole soul/magic aspect, where faith can move mountains, and where somebody who is physically weak can hit as hard as somebody who is strong so long as he's focused enough or, as we'd say when discussing the weak assaulting the strong in the real world and succeeding, puts his soul in it.

 

In the Eternity universe, this is how things work (stolen from the wiki, which took it from the game):

 

Might: a character's physical and spiritual strength, brute force as well as their ability to channel powerful magic.

Constitution: a combination of the character's overall health and endurance.

Dexterity: a character's hand-eye coordination, balance, and overall grace.

Perception: a character's senses as well as their instinctive ability to pick up on details.

Intelligence: a character's logic and reasoning capabilities.

Resolve: a character's internal drive, determination, fearlessness.

 

 

It is reminiscent of the way character's inner strength boost their physical capabilities in a number of good fantasy works. Glen Cook's Black Company books and Steven Erickson's Malazan Book of the Fallen would be the obvious examples to look at, both taking it to the logical extreme. And perhaps a bit beyond.

Edited September 2, 2015 by pi2repsion

[ISC]

As people have pointed out, the lore reasoning is basically this:

 

Everything in PoE runs on soul power.

 

 

Which means that the following analogy is irrelevant, if anything might is more like the gunpowder of spellcasting

 

Now try to apply this logic to firing a rifle. What you gonna do? Pull the trigger so hard that the bullets will fly faster?

 

 

The fundamental problem with might, beyond user familiarity, is probably that it is an abstraction on a higher level than the other attribute concepts. They are all abstractions of course, but might is a quite broad and fuzzy concept (at least to us who are not familiar with everyday soul causality). It can be used to describe very different properties related to the general "power" of the character, from something like willpower, to big muscles, to divine faith. Because might is such an umbrella term, things get weird in for example dialogue options. I don't think that all might 18 characters are intended to be about equally muscular or physically strong. To a lesser extent the same is true of the other attributes, I don't think that all intelligence 18 characters are equally quick of mind, have the same memory capacity, creativity, problem solving capacity, ability to abstract etc. It is just that might is such a high level abstraction that it creates bigger problems when the details matter.

[Skie Nightfall]

As some mentioned, I really like how this system makes more attributes relevant for more classes. It's been a while since I played something like that.

[sp3cw4r]

 

Might is supposed to represent both physical and spiritual strength

Not quite. Might is spiritual strength, and physical strength is one of the many things that comes from spiritual strength.

 

Everything in PoE runs on soul power.

 

 

Not quite?  Well that's what the game tells me.

 

"Might represents a character's physical and spiritual strength, brute force as well as their ability to channel powerful magic. During interactions, it can be useful for intimidating displays and acts of brute force. In combat, it contributes to both damage and healing as well as the fortitude defense."

Edited September 2, 2015 by sp3cw4r

[gkathellar]

The fundamental problem with might, beyond user familiarity, is probably that it is an abstraction on a higher level than the other attribute concepts. They are all abstractions of course, but might is a quite broad and fuzzy concept (at least to us who are not familiar with everyday soul causality). It can be used to describe very different properties related to the general "power" of the character, from something like willpower, to big muscles, to divine faith. Because might is such an umbrella term, things get weird in for example dialogue options. I don't think that all might 18 characters are intended to be about equally muscular or physically strong. To a lesser extent the same is true of the other attributes, I don't think that all intelligence 18 characters are equally quick of mind, have the same memory capacity, creativity, problem solving capacity, ability to abstract etc. It is just that might is such a high level abstraction that it creates bigger problems when the details matter.

 

Yeah, this pretty adequately sums up the familiarity issue. The only thing I'd add is that I think dropping Strength while retaining Dexterity (and Constitution to a lesser extent) adds to the conclusion. Dexterity should really be called Wits.

[Stoner]

Well, good to know about serious attribute revamp in 2.0 (haven't checked it myself yet) but that's pretty much seem like a bad news for me, gotta check it out to be sure.

 

Main problem here, as many mentioned above, is that these attributes go through pretty obvious checks in dialogues and other interactions reflecting Might (for example) as ordinary physical strength, that seems like mostly writing problem, yes, but at the same time hurts overall attribute representation IMO.

 

I chose and admire PoE because it gives me back my long desired classics of BG, IWD, NWN gameplay with fresh looks, like a good old character classes doing what they supposed to do, so I can build tank or damage doer and it will do it's job since the beginning. Not like Divinity OS which builds upon exploits of certain classes with cheesy combinations and some of them plain useless, or DAO where character development is gimped to completely retarded level with non-existent class functionality where naked mage actually tanks way better than any warrior in heavy armor and combat yet again built upon dumb AI and cc timing exploiting... ehh, sorry for this little rant, but that's true in my book.

 

Pillars excels to unbelivable heights in these matter, and I hoped it would secure more of those classic feelings, but I can't deny that some fresh ideas are good, but not this particular matter IMO, I believe it could be done a bit better.

[drunetovich]

 

Now try to apply this logic to firing a rifle. What you gonna do? Pull the trigger so hard that the bullets will fly faster?

 

You never held a rifle I assume? Strength is very important to stabilize the weapon (which is somewhat important in aiming after all), if you're not strong enough you will have trouble holding it still and get uncontrollable recoil.

 

Especially Renaissance era weaponry, made from heavy and cumbersome materiel.

 

 

Your accuracy will suffer from low strength, not the bullet damage.

[Rosbjerg]

Then with might you can handle a higher caliber round and higher mussel velocity. I'm sure we could find equally many points of comparison as we could find analogies where it doesn't fit - But why are we even doing the comparison in the first place? it's not really relevant.. as magic is about manipulating soul energy and not pre prepared ballistic kinetic packages shot from a pre manufactured piece of equipment.

 

If you shot the bullet with your will and asserted the kinetic force with your soul energy, then might might (hehe) very well have an impact.