Defender 2.0 beta nerf

[Gs11]

thx for clarification , very sensible suggestions

[Brimsurfer]

I like the accuracy hit idea. It makes sense if a guy's hiding under a shield against more than one attacker (or trying to swing a big weapon as the case may be.)

It seems you are talking about attack speed rather than accuracy. A big disadvantage in attack speed (lower no. of attacks) and some what decline in accuracy should do it, I suppose, that is if you want deflection penalty taken off.

Edited September 10, 2015 by Brimsurfer

[dherve10]

I posted this in the role of fighter page, but thought I'd chime in here as well:

 

It seems that there are a few fixes that would improve quality of life for the fighter:

 

1) Scaling for constant recovery

2) Some per rest abilities should be made per encounter

3) Disengagement strikes should be made more formidable to punish enemies charging through

 

Also, as regards defender, I agree that it needs a downside, and -5 deflection seems fine, but wary defender should also give 5 deflection to mitigate it.

 

On that note, anyone know how to mod the relevant data in the files? It seems they're packed into unity3d assets or something.

[Gary1986]

I posted this in the role of fighter page, but thought I'd chime in here as well:

 

It seems that there are a few fixes that would improve quality of life for the fighter:

 

1) Scaling for constant recovery

2) Some per rest abilities should be made per encounter

3) Disengagement strikes should be made more formidable to punish enemies charging through

 

Also, as regards defender, I agree that it needs a downside, and -5 deflection seems fine, but wary defender should also give 5 deflection to mitigate it.

 

On that note, anyone know how to mod the relevant data in the files? It seems they're packed into unity3d assets or something.

 

Scaling constant recovery is something that would be nice

[Gary1986]

Is Josh keeping track of this thread? I'm interested if hes willing to now change the -5 deflection to something else.

[View619]

Is Josh keeping track of this thread? I'm interested if hes willing to now change the -5 deflection to something else.

 

I doubt it, the thread is a mess of complaints. Maybe send him a direct line on twitter or something.

Granted, he'll then get complaints if he moves the malus back to accuracy so it's really just a case of "damned if you do, damned if you don't" for him at this point.

Edited September 22, 2015 by View619

[sapientNode]

I am bit preplexed right now with fighter versus any other tank to be honest.

I am early game testing out a Paladin and she takes a lot more damage with higher reductions and as a moon godlike.

The fighter can still go toe to toe in a doorway and stamina fight groups better than anyone I have seen.

 

As for the nerf there is a nexus mod that rebalances it back: http://www.nexusmods.com/pillarsofeternity/mods/91/?

Its something...

[KDubya]

Does anyone even bother to take Defender now?

 

In all my games I've re-speced Eder out of Defender/Wary Defender and grabbed Confident Aim and something else like Savage Attack or Superior Deflection. With that Eder hits harder and more consistently with better deflection, only missing out on the +2 engagements which don't seem to make any difference at all.

 

My teams are generally melee heavy with 3 or 4 melee up front and at no point on PotD am I saying "Boy, wish I had some more engagements" Maybe it makes a difference with a tank & spank 1 victim and five cannon approach, but with balanced melee it does not factor.

 

Old Defender was so good that you could go with a two hander or dual wield damage build and still stand on the frontline and face tank everyone. Now I find that my frontline melee is wanting a shield, especially my Fighter. My Defender builds lost 15 deflection from Defender/Wary Defender (and +10 Vs all), another +10 or so from Perception and another +1 from the general downgrade to items for -26 deflection and the non-defender lost around -11.

 

Other then bringing Eder along for his character I'd just leave a Fighter at the keep. If I need tanky I get a Paladin, if I need damage I can go Rogue, or Barbarian and if I need some of both I grab a Monk.

 

As a main character I see little reason to get a Fighter instead of a Monk. Eder is within a few stat points of being as good of a Fighter as you can make. If you don't want a fist using Monk just have him stick to weapons, all his abilities work fine with them as well.

[MunoValente]

Main thing that makes me to not want to take defender now is that is doesn't work with Savage Attack and for no good reason, I wanted use to it with a character more focused on damage dealing than defense, but still tough enough to be in the frontline.  The engagements are useful and if your fighter has good Con they should still survive pretty well even with the penalty.     Wary Defender is really boring, although it might be worth taking at higher levels when there aren't as many other good options.

[the_dog_days]

Somebody else on this thread already suggested it, but I like the idea of keeping the plus two engagements and deflection penalty of Defender and changing Wary Defender to add damage to fighters' disengagement attacks. That way disengagement is possible for the AI but you can punish them for it.

[Teioh_White]

I pretty much do what KD does now, and just skip Defender, and go with 3-4 melee up front, instead of the 1-2 I used to do. With 3-4 guys in plate who don't mind getting hit, no real need for extra engagements, and damage mostly spreads itself around. Fighter's are actually pretty bad at this, like they're pretty bad at everything. I still use Eder though, mostly because I don't hit WM up till endgame to replace him, but he doesn't do a whole ton special.

 

And if you don't mind micro'n, you want care about engagements, as 3-4 casters can keep an entire fight on lockdown easily enough.

 

So, yeah, I don't see a ton of use for new Defender, and old Defender's massive deflection bonus was really Fighter's only trick. It wasn't even a particularly good trick, either.

[Torm51]

I pretty much do what KD does now, and just skip Defender, and go with 3-4 melee up front, instead of the 1-2 I used to do. With 3-4 guys in plate who don't mind getting hit, no real need for extra engagements, and damage mostly spreads itself around. Fighter's are actually pretty bad at this, like they're pretty bad at everything. I still use Eder though, mostly because I don't hit WM up till endgame to replace him, but he doesn't do a whole ton special.

 

And if you don't mind micro'n, you want care about engagements, as 3-4 casters can keep an entire fight on lockdown easily enough.

 

So, yeah, I don't see a ton of use for new Defender, and old Defender's massive deflection bonus was really Fighter's only trick. It wasn't even a particularly good trick, either.

I still think Fighter does very good damage when specced properly even in Plate.  Just give them a big 2hander spec them for offense and they can be very durable frontliners with good damage. 

[Teioh_White]

Well, the thing about this game is that everyone can wear the same gear and take the same general talents. Even internal stat differences between classes are very minor, normally at worse than +-10 deflection/acc, and +-2 HP per level. So, just need to look at what a class does better than another if you put the exact some gear/stats/talents on them.

 

And tha's where Fighter's issue comes in. It's class passive, generally a class's trademark ability, is junk. The stuff it can take on level up? Not much better. This treads covered in great detail why Defender is pretty junk. The rest of Fighter's abilites fall into some pretty underwhelming categories. There are the per encounter or even per rest attacks, which for almost all of the physical classes end up being horribly underwhelming on PotD.  They also have a number of self buffs, that are terrible because they don't stack with better spell versions of the buffs, and force the fighter to actually have INT, which the ability to tank INT is one of few saving graces the class has, so those are out. (And they're a very small loss.)

 

That pretty much leaves it with a few decent passives as it's claim to fame. It can get a +.25 mod, -16% armor penalty (worth about 3-4 dex), +20% graze-to-hit (worth about +.035 mod), -10 % hit->graze (worth about -.025 incoming mod) and a free Second Chance. It's not a terribly exciting list, and it's pretty much the entire bonus one gets for chosing a fightinger. Most everyother non casting class can just toss on the same gear/talents/spells, and get better results doing the same thing.

[Gary1986]

Somebody contacted josh awhile back and he responded but he hasn't been back since. If anybody knows how, could they ask him to read the new posts in the thread and if he can give us any updates.

[Elric Galad]

 

Is Josh keeping track of this thread? I'm interested if hes willing to now change the -5 deflection to something else.

 

I doubt it, the thread is a mess of complaints. Maybe send him a direct line on twitter or something.

Granted, he'll then get complaints if he moves the malus back to accuracy so it's really just a case of "damned if you do, damned if you don't" for him at this point.

 

 

Basically the thread consensus says :

 

Without being unplayable, fighters are currently underpowered, and comparable with 1.06 Rangers (who were also underpowered but not unplayable)

A minority believes that they are OK.

 

They are described as currently less powerful than Paladin in the Tank role (with better DPS, and without Paladin's support abilities).

They are also (in my opinion this is even more crticial) less powerful than Monk in Tanky Single Target DPS role.

 

 

Then, there are a lot of ideas about how to buff them, without real consensus about how Obsidian should do.

The only recurring wish is that they could benefits more from the extra engagements they get.

Constant recovery also draws a lot of criticism.

[KDubya]

 

I pretty much do what KD does now, and just skip Defender, and go with 3-4 melee up front, instead of the 1-2 I used to do. With 3-4 guys in plate who don't mind getting hit, no real need for extra engagements, and damage mostly spreads itself around. Fighter's are actually pretty bad at this, like they're pretty bad at everything. I still use Eder though, mostly because I don't hit WM up till endgame to replace him, but he doesn't do a whole ton special.

 

And if you don't mind micro'n, you want care about engagements, as 3-4 casters can keep an entire fight on lockdown easily enough.

 

So, yeah, I don't see a ton of use for new Defender, and old Defender's massive deflection bonus was really Fighter's only trick. It wasn't even a particularly good trick, either.

I still think Fighter does very good damage when specced properly even in Plate.  Just give them a big 2hander spec them for offense and they can be very durable frontliners with good damage. 

 

 

If you do the same thing with a Monk - put him in plate, give him a Great Sword, take damage talents and a few tanky abilities, you get a much better melee combatant.

 

All base stats are the same except the Monk gets more health. A Fighter gets +25% damage with one weapon group, a Monk gets +25% damage via Lightning lash and a +25% attack speed buff that works with everything for the same cost in talents and abilities. Throw in Armored Grace and the Monk is still better and has an extra ability.

 

Standing in melee without a shield the Monk will gain wounds to fuel AoE cones and teleporting debuffing line attacks, the Fighter just gets endurance loss.

 

Instead of a Fighter you could even go with a tanky shield using Rogue. You start -10 deflection behind at the start and Reckless makes it -18 deflection. A Superb Large Shield with Weapon and Shield Style would get you the same Accuracy as a Fighter (+8+- and +16 deflection total (-10+-8+12+16+6). With sneak attacks, not even deathblows, a Rogue one hander with a shield will out damage a two handed Fighter and have more deflection doing it.

 

The best Fighter build is probably "The Martyr" - be a Mountain Dwarf (choose Slave as no one would willingly choose this path ) from Rautai, for 20 con and max your intellect for aura range and duration buffs. take the two health healing general talents, take Guardian, take Unbending to heal 1/2 incoming damage and take the new take 1/2 the damage for the whole team aura that can be active with Guardian . The team gets +10 deflection and only half damage. You take an accuracy malus and half the damage that your team takes and you have two talents that can heal back 60% of your health loss to prolong the misery

 

The saddest thing is that the Martyr is probably so good at what he does that it'd break the game. Keep his defense low so that the enemy targets him first, even paralyzed he will still do his job. Just slap him with a LoH once in a while to keep him vertical.

[Gary1986]

Been gone a few months. Has anything changed with defender in the last few updates?

[View619]

Been gone a few months. Has anything changed with defender in the last few updates?

 

No

[Gary1986]

Sad really. I enjoyed this game when it first came out but over the past few months they've ruined it for me by doing annoying changes. I don't understand the logic of drastic changes in a single player game. I have white march purchased but yet to play it. Don't even have the excitement in me to even give it ago.