Rogue Question

[Gary1986]

When the expansion comes out ill get to use a rogue (I only use the ingame characters) my question is, is a pistol a good weapon to use on a rogue? I'm thinking of making my rogue a range character due to the low deflection and DR rogues have. Just incase I change my mind about going range, can a rogue soak up the dmg and hold there own in melee?

Edited July 5, 2015 by Gary1986

[zered]

I am no expert but rogue is mostly a glass cannon. Range sure, hit and run sure, soak up dmg nope. Of course it comes down to what difficulty you are playing. I imagine that on normal or easy you could try and do a tanky rogue. But again, im no hardcore player.

 

[Luckmann]

Rogues can hold their own in melee to a degree, but they cannot really soak up damage, no. I mean, you could probably build a tanky rogue, but that is going to absolutely devastate his damage output.

 

And rogues can absolutely make excellent use out of pistols. In fact, even if I build a melee rogue, I'd probably still keep a pistol around for short-range backstabs.

 

At some point I absolutely intend to make a ranged rogue that uses Pistols and Arquebi both.

[AshenPlanet]

Ranged rogues are better than rangers, but that's not saying much.

They are nowhere near the DPS of melee rogues, it's like a 1 to 4 ratio.

Yea, melee rogues do over 4 times the DPS.

It is totally worth doing a melee rogue if you can manage it, they are crazy good.

 

The thing is, their defense does suck, so when I did a rogue as a main character, I maxed out perception and resolve and dex in order to have the highest Def. possible.

You can leave both con and int at min. because the only rogue ability that uses int, deep wounds, gets overwritten so fast, that even a 3 int. is longer than needed.

Str at 10 is fine, because, with all the huge damage multipliers that rogues gets when you combo with multiple status effects from wizards and ciphers, their str is meaningless as additional damage.

 

You can start using stilettos, the best stiletto in the game costs very little, and you can buy it in the first town's weapon shop.

You can also get another late-game caliber stiletto from a Doemenel quest that you can do as early as 3rd level.

Later on, you can switch to rapiers/daggers/noble by saving your weapon focus for later when you can get end-game noble weapons from the endless paths.

 

Their weak spot is defense, so you have to watch them, keep them healed, buffed, etc.

You'll want at least 1 other front line character to share the engagements with the rogue, like eder or pallegina, or both.

Also make liberal use of mental binding/phantom foes from mother and slicken/black sight from aloth.

 

Note, this may all change with the expansion, if perception is changed to accuracy instead of deflection.

This change will hit rogues hardest of all I think, because they need those 2 maxed stats for deflection.

Extra accuracy is not needed, as you should be flanking most of the time anyway.

My last play through, my rogue had more crits than hits, and that's with a big +crit damage multiplier as well.

 

Definitely worth it to do the melee rogue to see just how fast you can bring down those dragons and bosses.

 

[Nobear]

Ranged rogues are better than rangers, but that's not saying much.

They are nowhere near the DPS of melee rogues, it's like a 1 to 4 ratio.

Yea, melee rogues do over 4 times the DPS.

It is totally worth doing a melee rogue if you can manage it, they are crazy good.

 

The thing is, their defense does suck, so when I did a rogue as a main character, I maxed out perception and resolve and dex in order to have the highest Def. possible.

You can leave both con and int at min. because the only rogue ability that uses int, deep wounds, gets overwritten so fast, that even a 3 int. is longer than needed.

Str at 10 is fine, because, with all the huge damage multipliers that rogues gets when you combo with multiple status effects from wizards and ciphers, their str is meaningless as additional damage.

 

You can start using stilettos, the best stiletto in the game costs very little, and you can buy it in the first town's weapon shop.

You can also get another late-game caliber stiletto from a Doemenel quest that you can do as early as 3rd level.

Later on, you can switch to rapiers/daggers/noble by saving your weapon focus for later when you can get end-game noble weapons from the endless paths.

 

Their weak spot is defense, so you have to watch them, keep them healed, buffed, etc.

You'll want at least 1 other front line character to share the engagements with the rogue, like eder or pallegina, or both.

Also make liberal use of mental binding/phantom foes from mother and slicken/black sight from aloth.

 

Note, this may all change with the expansion, if perception is changed to accuracy instead of deflection.

This change will hit rogues hardest of all I think, because they need those 2 maxed stats for deflection.

Extra accuracy is not needed, as you should be flanking most of the time anyway.

My last play through, my rogue had more crits than hits, and that's with a big +crit damage multiplier as well.

 

Definitely worth it to do the melee rogue to see just how fast you can bring down those dragons and bosses.

 

Focusing on Deflection for a rogue? Extra accuracy not needed? I'm definitely going to differ 180 degrees from you on this one. As long as you have two tanks, your melee rogue should only be taking hits from 0-2 enemies at once most of the time, and building him offensively means he can almost always kill any enemies who have focused him faster than they can kill him. For the rare exceptions, have Durance cast Withdraw on him. It will take him out of the fight for a while, but he will still have made a big difference in the fight just with his opening backstab, especially after 2.0 which will introduce individual stealth.

 

I'd suggest giving him either a ranged or reach weapon for his alternate slot, but that's for cases where bad pathing at a chokepoint would prevent him from getting in range. Alternately, Escape would probably solve this problem, but I have not played with Escape, so I don't know how well it works in practice.

[Blades of Vanatar]

I am playing with a quasi-frontline Fire Godlike Rogue. He is definitely holding his own. 14s in Per, Res, Mig and Con. 15 Dex. Dumped Int. Dual wielding Swords. Playing on Hard. Eder is my only other Frontliner, supported by Sagani's wolf. My Rogue had enough staying power to keep alive in the Ogre BH cave.

Edited July 5, 2015 by Blades of Vanatar

[Gary1986]

Cheers for all the replies. I was thinking, would the rogue be good with a small shield?

[Nobear]

Cheers for all the replies. I was thinking, would the rogue be good with a small shield?

 

I don't think so at all. You only get an accuracy boost if you're wielding a single one-handed weapon without a shield. All this would do is sacrifice a massive portion of your DPS (the main point of a rogue) for a very marginal increase in survivability. DPS is always valuable, survivability only sometimes is, so I'd say dual wield is a must if you're playing a frontline melee rogue.

 

Edit: If you want more survivability for a frontline melee rogue, one of the most effective things with the lowest DPS tradeoff would be to make him a Moon Godlike. For more detail on a build like this, read "Prince of Persia Blue Edition" here: http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=416939844&insideModal=1 Dumping Con wouldn't be so bad, and you'd effectively be extending your health pool (and that of your allies, to some extent) by a significant amount up to 4 times per encounter. It'll actually trigger more often with lower Con FWIW.

Edited July 5, 2015 by Nobear

[Nobear]

Wait, I forgot that your post was about the prospect of playing with the upcoming companion rogue. In that case, I don't think we know what her stats will be, or if she will be a special "race" with some unique bonus, kind of like Pallegina. I remember reading she was pictured somewhere with a ranged weapon and shield, which would imply some detail or change we don't know about yet. It's quite possible the expansion will bring one or two surprises that might change the current discussion on rogues in some meaningful way.

[Gary1986]

Wait, I forgot that your post was about the prospect of playing with the upcoming companion rogue. In that case, I don't think we know what her stats will be, or if she will be a special "race" with some unique bonus, kind of like Pallegina. I remember reading she was pictured somewhere with a ranged weapon and shield, which would imply some detail or change we don't know about yet. It's quite possible the expansion will bring one or two surprises that might change the current discussion on rogues in some meaningful way.

Can you hold a gun with a shield? I didn't know that.

 

Does that mean a pistol is one handed then? If I took one handed style while using a pistol would it work?

[Blades of Vanatar]

No. Guns are twohanders.

[Nobear]

Can you hold a gun with a shield? I didn't know that.

Does that mean a pistol is one handed then? If I took one handed style while using a pistol would it work?

 

Not currently. That's why I said it would imply some detail or change we don't know about yet. This was from at least one of the articles covering what they were showing of the expansion at E3.

 

And, although guns are two-handers, Two-Handed Style is only for melee weapons. Ranged should get Marksman instead, and Gunner if you want to use a gun.

Edited July 6, 2015 by Nobear

[AshenPlanet]

As long as you have two tanks, your melee rogue should only be taking hits from 0-2 enemies at once most of the time, and building him offensively means he can almost always kill any enemies who have focused him faster than they can kill him. 

 

Building a rogue offensively is exactly the way to go.

Going with mid level stats across the board is not offensive, that is simply weak...

 

Rogues have 1 important offensive stat - Dex.

After that, it's Per and Str - Per for the interrupts is more valuable than str, because str means so little to a rogue in the late game.

If you actually play a melee rogue and see the ridiculous amount of extra damage you do with 2 status effects on your targets, you'd see how little str contributes to that damage - the interrupts are more valuable.

So, with a 3 int, which is useless, you can easily max Dex, Per, and Res, which will give you as much deflection as you can get as well as be the best offensive build.

After that you are left with 17 points to split between str and con.

You could go with a 14 str and a 3 con, I chose to take a 10 str and a 7 con, because str is less used for rogues than it is for other classes, and while con is not an important stat either, rogues do get hit, and some extra con is not bad to have.

 

But, yes, I use +10 deflection ring, sup. deflection, nothing higher than padded armor, and only dual fast melee weapons, and I find this to be the best offensive setup you can have for a rogue while still being able to stand in the front dishing out ungodly amounts of damage and not holding back.

 

Try it both ways and see for yourself.

[Nobear]

Building a rogue offensively is exactly the way to go.

Going with mid level stats across the board is not offensive, that is simply weak...

 

I was not advocating mid-level stats across the board. My preference is to dump Con and Int, max Dex and Str, and have high Res and Per, but I give a slight preference to Res so that I can keep up my DPS while being attacked.

 

Sure, it's true that not maxing Str will make a relatively small difference with a rogue compared to other classes, I just prefer to squeeze out every little bit of DPS before I pump things like interrupt. You could argue for either, and honestly it won't make a huge difference either way.

 

Where I disagree most I think is about extra accuracy not being needed. Well, define "needed." It's certainly welcome for anyone. For a rogue, even though you have buffed Hit-to-Crit, accuracy still helps your crit rate to a lesser extent, and also gives you more of those hits in the first place, rather than have them be misses or grazes (which can be a factor on PoTD).

 

I wouldn't say rogues will be hit hardest in the expansion, I'd say tanks will be hit hardest (but probably not enough to make them squishy in most fights). I'd say the expansion will be a net benefit to rogues, as I'd take a DPS increase for a DPS class (always a benefit) over a survivability increase (of greatly varying benefit depending on the fight, and aided by a variety of other means either from rogue abilities, talents, racials, other classes, or items like the Deflection ring you mention).

 

Edit: Add to this individual stealth, making a melee backstabbing rogue much more viable without the big investment in stealth across your party, and I'd say this is a great expansion for rogues from what I've read.

Edited July 6, 2015 by Nobear

[AshenPlanet]

If you gimp int and con also, then what we are really talking about is 3 points of stats.

 

Assume a hearth halfling, which imo is the best race for a rogue.

Then you are talking about having a 14 Str, a 20 Per, and a 19 Res, which is what I am recommending because I think the extra deflection is a bigger deal than the extra few point of damage (interrupts are good, especially when you are dual-weilding fast weapons and your target can hit you for huge damage per hit).

Or, having a 17 Str, a 17 Per, and a 19 Res, as you are recommending for the few extra points of damage and a little less deflection and interrupts.

 

3 points of stats is so little and not worth arguing about that I won't push this point any more.

We are basically saying the same thing, 3 points is a negligible difference.

 

Accuracy is not a big factor at all for a main-character rogue.

On my rogue playthrough, I had over 2500 crits, and around 1300 hits.

Just having 1 cipher in your party is enough to make sure everything you fight is flanked or blinded, or both.

I almost never missed, and as you can see above, I crit far more often than I hit.

I didn't even bother having gloves of accuracy on - I gave those to Aloth instead.

 

While the stealth changes will be great for rogues, the perception changes will definitely hurt rogues more than any other class.

Accuracy is not needed for them if you play them right, but deflection is a HUGE deal!

It will definitely be a massive nerf for them.

I'm not saying that's a bad thing, rogues are one of the top classes right now along with wizards, druids, and ciphers, so maybe a nerf is coming...

Rogues will still want to max Per after the change just like every other class will have max Per, but losing deflection, which is extremely important for them, for accuracy, which is not a big deal at all, is definitely going to be bad for them... 

 

[AshenPlanet]

One thing I forgot to point out, is that a tank won't be hurt by the change to Per anywhere near as much as a rogue.

A tank will be using weapon and shield style and single weapon style (with shield), and so will still have super high deflection and only lose a small portion from stats.

 

Rogues, dual-weilding, have no shield and very little (less than many other classes) base deflection as well.

So, every single point of deflection that you can pull from stats and equipment is worth a lot more than it is for a tank.

 

[Luckmann]

No. Guns are twohanders.

 

I wanted to single out this from the discussion.

 

While Pistols are two-handed, they do not benefit from the Two-Handed Weapon Style, which does not affect any ranged weapons.

 

All ranged weapons in the entire game are two-handed, but none of them benefits from a Style Talent (unless things have changed).

[Nobear]

When the expansion comes out ill get to use a rogue (I only use the ingame characters) my question is, is a pistol a good weapon to use on a rogue? I'm thinking of making my rogue a range character due to the low deflection and DR rogues have. Just incase I change my mind about going range, can a rogue soak up the dmg and hold there own in melee?

 

You changed your original question. When I have a closely related follow-up question I usually ask it further down, to avoid confusion, but no worries as I got it this time.

 

To answer your new question, pistols are a fine choice, as they do high damage per shot so are good vs high DR enemies. Theoretically, arquebuses would be even better for this, but the unique pistols currently in the game seem to be better than the unique arquebuses. Add to that the fact that pistols and blunderbusses share a weapon focus (Ruffian), and that blunderbusses are great for lower DR enemies.

 

That said, as I pointed out, seeing as an early expansion preview showed the new rogue companion with a ranged weapon and shield, the expansion may bring changes that will make this discussion outdated by the time you are looking to benefit from it.

[VahnXIII]

As a new player of the rogue class, I'm finding this build: https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/79375-class-build-dual-wielding-stiletto-rogue/ 

to be extremely effective. I may only be at the beginning of the game, but things are already dying fast. The downside, as others have said, is the incoming change to perception.

[Nobear]

As a new player of the rogue class, I'm finding this build: https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/79375-class-build-dual-wielding-stiletto-rogue/ 

to be extremely effective. I may only be at the beginning of the game, but things are already dying fast. The downside, as others have said, is the incoming change to perception.

 

I didn't want to say anything about that build on the other thread since you had already chosen it, but the thing I disagree most with is where he says "RES - 8 - I really don't need Concentration." If you are taking into consideration that you will often get hit in melee despite your best efforts to the contrary, you will often be interrupted, and Concentration is very valuable to maintain high DPS while getting attacked. IMHO his build would have been improved by dumping Con to put more into Res, which also would have opened up more dialogue options (namely, a greater power to persuade people across a wide range of situations).

 

You also don't really need Int as a rogue, which he acknowledges. Of course, he is factoring RP into his decisions for both Con and Int, so he realizes it's not an optimal min-maxed build. Basically, unless you are planning to solo the game as a rogue, his blinds and cripples are useful to get the ball rolling on disables and sneak attacks, but then other characters can take over with AoE disables which also last longer even if you were to have average or above Int on a rogue.

 

Because he is not focusing heavily on Per and Res, he is not prioritizing Deflection anyway. Following his thinking, I'd surmise he would consider the Perception change to be good. He is already neglecting Deflection in order to max the DPS he would do while not being attacked, so why not have more Accuracy to increase his theoretical max DPS even further?

 

Overall, and this goes back to AshenPlanet's thinking, Accuracy and Deflection are both good for a rogue. Which is more important of the two I think is debatable and partly based on personal preference, but it also varies from fight to fight.

 

Edit: Vahn, I don't want to make you feel like you've made a "wrong" choice there. The build you're using is certainly viable, especially below PoTD, and it seems you're enjoying it, so cheers.

Edited July 8, 2015 by Nobear

[VahnXIII]

 

As a new player of the rogue class, I'm finding this build: https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/79375-class-build-dual-wielding-stiletto-rogue/ 

to be extremely effective. I may only be at the beginning of the game, but things are already dying fast. The downside, as others have said, is the incoming change to perception.

 

I didn't want to say anything about that build on the other thread since you had already chosen it, but the thing I disagree most with is where he says "RES - 8 - I really don't need Concentration." If you are taking into consideration that you will often get hit in melee despite your best efforts to the contrary, you will often be interrupted, and Concentration is very valuable to maintain high DPS while getting attacked. IMHO his build would have been improved by dumping Con to put more into Res, which also would have opened up more dialogue options (namely, a greater power to persuade people across a wide range of situations).

 

You also don't really need Int as a rogue, which he acknowledges. Of course, he is factoring RP into his decisions for both Con and Int, so he realizes it's not an optimal min-maxed build. Basically, unless you are planning to solo the game as a rogue, his blinds and cripples are useful to get the ball rolling on disables and sneak attacks, but then other characters can take over with AoE disables which also last longer even if you were to have average or above Int on a rogue.

 

Because he is not focusing heavily on Per and Res, he is not prioritizing Deflection anyway. Following his thinking, I'd surmise he would consider the Perception change to be good. He is already neglecting Deflection in order to max the DPS he would do while not being attacked, so why not have more Accuracy to increase his theoretical max DPS even further?

 

Overall, and this goes back to AshenPlanet's thinking, Accuracy and Deflection are both good for a rogue. Which is more important of the two I think is debatable and partly based on personal preference, but it also varies from fight to fight.

 

Edit: Vahn, I don't want to make you feel like you've made a "wrong" choice there. The build you're using is certainly viable, especially below PoTD, and it seems you're enjoying it, so cheers.

 

I appreciate the input! I do play at a level below PoTD so I imagine there is a higher degree of forgiveness for not playing a maxed build. Perhaps this is a good build for players not playing PoTD but still want to play the rogue. I'll continue doing a little experimenting on my own and will contribute to this conversation further. However, I always find there is someone else more adamant about their class build and have already posted their findings.

[Nobear]

Right. If you're not too adamant about your getting your class build "perfect," that could be a good thing, as you may well end up beating the game before I do with all the restarting I'm prone to do. I haven't restarted the game in a week or more. Well I have, but I didn't get very far before I went back to my main play through and progressed a bit further. For me, this is the accomplishment!

[VahnXIII]

Right. If you're not too adamant about your getting your class build "perfect," that could be a good thing, as you may well end up beating the game before I do with all the restarting I'm prone to do. I haven't restarted the game in a week or more. Well I have, but I didn't get very far before I went back to my main play through and progressed a bit further. For me, this is the accomplishment!

I also have a tendency to restart with different characters on a more than normal basis. I actually am already restarting with trying this build: http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/79744-tcs-rogue-dw-sabre-4-shot-thaos-1-bs-1-cs/

 

I little different but looks to be well rounded.

[Nobear]

 

Right. If you're not too adamant about your getting your class build "perfect," that could be a good thing, as you may well end up beating the game before I do with all the restarting I'm prone to do. I haven't restarted the game in a week or more. Well I have, but I didn't get very far before I went back to my main play through and progressed a bit further. For me, this is the accomplishment!

I also have a tendency to restart with different characters on a more than normal basis. I actually am already restarting with trying this build: http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/79744-tcs-rogue-dw-sabre-4-shot-thaos-1-bs-1-cs/

 

I little different but looks to be well rounded.

 

That looks like a very solid build for soloing, super good. Are you soloing though?

[VahnXIII]

 

 

Right. If you're not too adamant about your getting your class build "perfect," that could be a good thing, as you may well end up beating the game before I do with all the restarting I'm prone to do. I haven't restarted the game in a week or more. Well I have, but I didn't get very far before I went back to my main play through and progressed a bit further. For me, this is the accomplishment!

I also have a tendency to restart with different characters on a more than normal basis. I actually am already restarting with trying this build: http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/79744-tcs-rogue-dw-sabre-4-shot-thaos-1-bs-1-cs/

 

I little different but looks to be well rounded.

 

That looks like a very solid build for soloing, super good. Are you soloing though?

 

Negative. I'll probably switch some abilities around for more of a party-friendly build. I'm level 4 at this point and already cleared the Temple of Eothas in Gilded Vale. All I can say is things die extremely fast. I always start my rogue off to the side, have Eder pull, rogue moves into flanking position and whacks away with enchanted sabres. Works wonders. As soon I get attention from mobs, I simply use blinding strike and continue hitting with sneak attacks.

 

What I found is blinding strike and crippling strike actually hits the enemy twice with each use. These abilities are per encounter. I can simply use them back to back to burn down a troublesome enemy quickly. 

 

In summary, this build is great and pretty strait forward. As for offensive output, I generally defeat enemies before they can even hit me so I must be doing something right with this class. Very, very fun indeed.