Faerunner Posted June 7, 2015 Share Posted June 7, 2015 (edited) Act II: you can take on a side quest where a guy in the Dozens asks you to retrieve a family heirloom breastplate that got confiscated by a rival when he got kicked out of the Crucible Knights. You go to Crucible Keep, try to talk to the rival, but he won't hand over the breastplate (as he sanctimoniously preaches that the guy forfeited the right to his own family heirloom when he got thrown out). As the quest-giver and quest-log note, the rival's affidavit (or soul certificate) is rumored to be fake so you might be able to use it as leverage. You get the affidavit, you again talk to the rival, and you again give him a chance to hand over the family breastplate. His answer amounts to, "You can't prove it's a fake, so no." Challenge accepted. You take the affidavit to the soul scribes in Brackenburry and receive proof that, yes, his soul certificate thing is a fake. At this point I imagine some players might feel duty-bound to tell the Crucible Knights captain about the forged soul in their ranks, some might want to use it to get the rival kicked out so he no longer has any authority to the breastplate, others might want to get him kicked out out of spite, others might just think "All right! I got the leverage I need to make that smug prick hand over the breastplate!" with or without any intention of turning him in afterwards, etc. However, the rival confronts you just as you leave the soul scribes' headquarters, pale and panicked that you'll turn him in. (Oh, now he's afraid.) To me, this would be a great time to let the PC express many of the aforementioned reactions; but it seems the player character's many dialogue options amount to: 1) Tell him that you intend to take the proof to his captain, causing him to attack and forcing you to kill him. 2) Just hand it over and lose your bargaining chip. What seems weird to me is that there doesn't seem to be any dialogue option to simply say, "I don't care that you forged your affidavit, I just want the breastplate," or "Give me the breastplate and the affidavit is yours." When I played, it seemed the ONLY dialogue options are either to express moral outrage that he forged his way in and/or say you're telling his superiors (which may seem odd if you don't care about that stuff), or just hand it over and lose your only leverage to getting the breastplate back. Sure enough, if you don't want to kill him, then after you hand over the affidavit, once you ask the rival again about the breastplate, unless you pick the one right dialogue option (which might not be in-character for some), he once again feels no obligation to give it back and self-righteously preaches about how the guy doesn't deserve it. (Are you %$#&^ me?!) Did anyone else have that problem? Was it just me? I mean, far be it from me to be one of those folks who says, "Why wasn't my character allowed to express this opinion?" or "Why wasn't I given this dialogue option?!" But it just seems like such an obvious oversight; to take a quest where the whole reason you set out to find proof that a guy's document is a forgery is to use it as leverage to get him to give another guy back his stuff, and then you're not allowed to use it as leverage for said stuff the moment it would be the most useful. So: thoughts, opinions, discussions? Edited June 7, 2015 by Faerunner 1 "Not I, though. Not I," said the hanging dwarf. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nakia Posted June 7, 2015 Share Posted June 7, 2015 I agree with you. This does seem like an oversight and a missed opportunity to make a minor quest a little more interesting and valid. I have but one enemy: myself - Drow saying Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strange_Trees Posted June 7, 2015 Share Posted June 7, 2015 Yeeeeah I thought that one could have been done a little better. I wonder, if you just steal the paper and never confront the guy about the breastplate, does he still show up after you talk to the ciphers? My Custom Portraits Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drath Posted June 8, 2015 Share Posted June 8, 2015 (edited) Yea it could have been written a little better as you've stated. I also thought you were meant to use the affidavit as a bargaining chip, which would have made a little more sense. Didn't like the "hand over the affidavit meekly" part at all. But I guess from the dev's point of view, they wanted to make Penhelm attack the player in most cases. No bargains, just taking things by force.Tried to get out of it but was forced to kill them during my playthrough. Welp more loot for me and plate sells well No drop in reputation with the Knights as far as I could tell. I did see a Crucible Knight say something to the effect of "I can't believe Penhelm attacked you" in the duc's palace, when I tried talking to them. Other than that, didn't notice any changes.I tried handing over the affidavit on a replay and to be honest I would have picked the wrong choice and failed the quest if I didn't know better. P/S - During my playthrough I took the affidavit and never mentioned the breastplate to Penhelm. Didn't want to arouse his suspicions. Well he showed up all the same Edited June 8, 2015 by Drath 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tennisgolfboll Posted June 13, 2015 Share Posted June 13, 2015 I agree. It was poorly done. I always kill him because it makes no sense to hand it over rather than trade Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abaris Posted June 13, 2015 Share Posted June 13, 2015 However, the rival confronts you just as you leave the soul scribes' headquarters, pale and panicked that you'll turn him in. (Oh, now he's afraid.) To me, this would be a great time to let the PC express many of the aforementioned reactions; but it seems the player character's many dialogue options amount to: Stop right there. That's the real oversight making the quest unbelievable in the first place. Why does this Penhelm character know that his documents were stolen, why does he know who stole them and why does he know where to wait for you to turn up? I played the quest several times, but things like that keep nagging me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EphemeralToast Posted June 13, 2015 Share Posted June 13, 2015 Why does this Penhelm character know that his documents were stolen, why does he know who stole them and why does he know where to wait for you to turn up? He knows because six random, armed strangers went up and interrogated him about the breastplate, then clomped into the records office right next door to where he's standing. He knows where to find you because where else would you go to authenticate his documents? "But I snuck into that office silently/didn't talk to Penhelm!" Penhelm is also psychic. This is the real reason he faked his documents. It's a secret to everybody. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abaris Posted June 13, 2015 Share Posted June 13, 2015 He knows because six random, armed strangers went up and interrogated him about the breastplate, then clomped into the records office right next door to where he's standing. He knows where to find you because where else would you go to authenticate his documents? Only if you do that. If you go about it silently without even talking to him in the first place, how does he know. In fact, I never talked to the man, but always searched the keep. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nakia Posted June 13, 2015 Share Posted June 13, 2015 As EphemeralToast said Penhelm is also psychic. I have but one enemy: myself - Drow saying Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tennisgolfboll Posted June 13, 2015 Share Posted June 13, 2015 To bad he couldn't see that demanding his paper back would end in his bloody death. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EphemeralToast Posted June 14, 2015 Share Posted June 14, 2015 To bad he couldn't see that demanding his paper back would end in his bloody death. He may be psychic, but he has a bad memory about his precognitions. He's a complex character. It's what makes this sidequest so rich an experience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tennisgolfboll Posted June 14, 2015 Share Posted June 14, 2015 To bad he couldn't see that demanding his paper back would end in his bloody death. He may be psychic, but he has a bad memory about his precognitions. He's a complex character. It's what makes this sidequest so rich an experience. Excellent Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faerunner Posted June 17, 2015 Author Share Posted June 17, 2015 However, the rival confronts you just as you leave the soul scribes' headquarters, pale and panicked that you'll turn him in. (Oh, now he's afraid.) To me, this would be a great time to let the PC express many of the aforementioned reactions; but it seems the player character's many dialogue options amount to: Stop right there. That's the real oversight making the quest unbelievable in the first place. Why does this Penhelm character know that his documents were stolen, why does he know who stole them and why does he know where to wait for you to turn up? He knows because six random, armed strangers went up and interrogated him about the breastplate, then clomped into the records office right next door to where he's standing. He knows where to find you because where else would you go to authenticate his documents? "But I snuck into that office silently/didn't talk to Penhelm!" Penhelm is also psychic. This is the real reason he faked his documents. It's a secret to everybody. All right, I concede your points. It's a bit iffy writing in the first place that he either knows it was you even if you made sure to cover your tracks taking the thing (though I always assumed that other people noticed what we were doing and tipped him off), OR, if you show/tell him of the document first and he says, "Ha! You can't prove it," that he just lets you leave Crusible Keep to find the proof you need and then acts scared/surprised after you get it. Dude, I wasn't kidding around. What'd you think I was gonna do when I walked away after I said, "It's a fake," and you said "Prove it"? There were a lot of missed writing opportunities. Like, if you confront him about the document first, then he tries to stop you from bringing it to the soul scribe (instead of just confronting you after the fact), where you have to kill him, hand it over, and/or plea-bargain the breastplate. Either way though, I just found it so odd (even if the whole quest is a bit unbelievably written) that you're not allowed to use the forged document as a bargaining chip for the breastplate when the whole reason you got it in the first place was to use it as such. Sure, I understand giving players the option to say, "No, I'm telling your captain because he has the right to know," or to refuse because you want to be a jerk, or hand it over because you felt pity for him and/or didn't care about the breastplate anymore. But, really? No option to say, "I'll give you the forgery after you give me the breastplate"? I know it's a dumb thing to harp on when there are already so many other things wrong with this quest, but this one just seemed like a big oversight to me. 2 "Not I, though. Not I," said the hanging dwarf. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gusmonkey Posted July 4, 2015 Share Posted July 4, 2015 The real kicker is that the quest log literally says: "If I can prove Penhelm's forgery, I may have some leverage to get the breastplate back". Then when he confronts you, there's no option to actually try that, as in "Ok, you give me the breastplate, I'll give you the affidavit". It's really frustrating because it makes no sense that the only option leading to an exchange involves agreeing to hand it over with no expectation of something in return - that choice is presented as just 'the right thing to do' (I guess). It gets even more annoying when you take that route in order to try and get an exchange. Once you give it to him you can try and get the breastplate back, he will at first refuse. You can then try and convince him, but some of those options will fail (well, at least one will fail that I know of). The problem is that then he just walks away! Where is the option to say "sorry, if you're not willing to hand it over I will take it by force"? Again, the whole point of pursuing the forgery was to get the breastplate back. Frustrating! 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luckmann Posted July 5, 2015 Share Posted July 5, 2015 (edited) The real kicker is that the quest log literally says: "If I can prove Penhelm's forgery, I may have some leverage to get the breastplate back". Then when he confronts you, there's no option to actually try that, as in "Ok, you give me the breastplate, I'll give you the affidavit". It's really frustrating because it makes no sense that the only option leading to an exchange involves agreeing to hand it over with no expectation of something in return - that choice is presented as just 'the right thing to do' (I guess). It gets even more annoying when you take that route in order to try and get an exchange. Once you give it to him you can try and get the breastplate back, he will at first refuse. You can then try and convince him, but some of those options will fail (well, at least one will fail that I know of). The problem is that then he just walks away! Where is the option to say "sorry, if you're not willing to hand it over I will take it by force"? Again, the whole point of pursuing the forgery was to get the breastplate back. Frustrating! Extremely frustrating. This is another one of those "Options are hidden once you make a nonsense choice in the dialogue"-dialogues, just like with Raedric. A lot of quest dialogues and options really, really, really could use a second pass. My first thought when this happened was "Hey, I don't like this practice either, but you were being an ass. Give me the breastplate and we'll call it even." but I'm also not going to just hand it over to him. So I told him to stuff it, hoping it would lead to some pleading, and maybe he'd offer me the breastplate. Nope, of course not, stupid me. That'd make sense. You have to agree to give him the affidavit first, and then you can haggle for a peaceful resolution. It's super-frustrating that some really clear quest options are sometimes flat-out missing, or buried in nonsensical, unrelated dialogue options that have nothing to do with what you'd like to do. Edited July 5, 2015 by Luckmann 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fardragon Posted July 5, 2015 Share Posted July 5, 2015 (edited) The real kicker is that the quest log literally says: "If I can prove Penhelm's forgery, I may have some leverage to get the breastplate back". Then when he confronts you, there's no option to actually try that, as in "Ok, you give me the breastplate, I'll give you the affidavit". I'm pretty sure I was given that option, the second time I played through that quest line. He gave me the breastplate, I promised to keep quiet about his ancestry, and no one died. Maybe it depends on attributes or reputation? Or maybe because second time around I was a hulking great barbarian? Edited July 5, 2015 by Fardragon Everyone knows Science Fiction is really cool. You know what PoE really needs? Spaceships! There isn't any game that wouldn't be improved by a space combat minigame. Adding one to PoE would send sales skyrocketing, and ensure the game was remembered for all time!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faerunner Posted July 5, 2015 Author Share Posted July 5, 2015 The real kicker is that the quest log literally says: "If I can prove Penhelm's forgery, I may have some leverage to get the breastplate back". Then when he confronts you, there's no option to actually try that, as in "Ok, you give me the breastplate, I'll give you the affidavit". I'm pretty sure I was given that option, the second time I played through that quest line. He gave me the breastplate, I promised to keep quiet about his ancestry, and no one died. Maybe it depends on attributes or reputation? Or maybe because second time around I was a hulking great barbarian? Really? Did he give you the breastplate before or after you handed over the affidavit? "Not I, though. Not I," said the hanging dwarf. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fardragon Posted July 5, 2015 Share Posted July 5, 2015 Don't recall, but I wouldn't have handed anything over to someone who threatened me. I most likely selected a "reasonable" option, but I was playing with the [] turned off. Everyone knows Science Fiction is really cool. You know what PoE really needs? Spaceships! There isn't any game that wouldn't be improved by a space combat minigame. Adding one to PoE would send sales skyrocketing, and ensure the game was remembered for all time!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luckmann Posted July 6, 2015 Share Posted July 6, 2015 The real kicker is that the quest log literally says: "If I can prove Penhelm's forgery, I may have some leverage to get the breastplate back". Then when he confronts you, there's no option to actually try that, as in "Ok, you give me the breastplate, I'll give you the affidavit".I'm pretty sure I was given that option, the second time I played through that quest line. He gave me the breastplate, I promised to keep quiet about his ancestry, and no one died. Maybe it depends on attributes or reputation? Or maybe because second time around I was a hulking great barbarian? I have the vaguest of memories that you're correct, and that this was the quest where I ran around everywhere to get a massive buff to Might just to see what the option was, but my memory is fuzzy as hell. That being said, if true, then the option should still be there for non-beefheads, it's just that you should fail. It's another one of the problems with the automated qualifier system as-is that I've seen, that some options should be available to everyone is locked behind a qualifier. Now, I'm not opposed to options unlocking with certain qualifiers such as Attributes, but many times, there are options that should be available to everyone, they just shouldn't *succeed* unless you qualify. But as-is, you don't even get the option. There needs to be different kinds of qualifiers. Hidden qualifiers, where you can do things or try things but you will succeed or fail based on your qualifications, and then others, like now, where the option is only available if you qualify at all. The difference may seem unclear, but it's a very important distinction that is notably absent in PoE. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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