Classes with per rest spells (Druid, Wizard Priest)

[Torm51]

I see people talking about spamming this spell etc with these classes and I wonder how?  If you are playing on hard or better you can only pack 2 camping supplies.  If you spam spells every pull you'd burn through those supplies quickly and would have to go back to town all the time... some areas of the game wont even let you leave until you complete the area.  I know you can spec those classes so that they can have extra lower level spells (I do) and equip them with gear that does the same but even then your spell use is limited.  Most of my average pulls are auto attacking with those classes while tanks tank and the  dpsers that don't  have per rest abilities go to town.  What am I missing?  I am just really afraid to use PER REST spells on those classes unless its a boss or things have gone down the toilet quickly...Am I playing wrong?

 

PS I just went on to WIKI and see that at high levels those classes get multiple low level spells per encounter not rest...makes more sense but even then you can definitely run out even with 16 level 1 one spells.  Maybe I am too conservative.

Edited May 27, 2015 by Torm51

[Omnicron]

Well I went Solo with a wizard on PotD and spammed my CC and damage spells all the time. Never had problems with camping supplies or going back to town to rest. It was a bit annoying, but not terrible, and there were plenty of camping supplies around in inns etc. I never really thought about it, it I just never ran into that problem. Very few area make you unable to retreat and 2 camping supplies can get you through those easily. 

[MadDemiurg]

Well, first of all I think you can exit ANY area in the game except the final one. Secondly, at levels 9 and 11 1st and 2nd level spells respectively become per encounter. When soloing I also tend not to bother with killing every damn ooze on the map since the rewards are marginal at best which significantly cuts the number of encounters you need to fight, but if you're a new player/play with full party this is probably not an option for you.

 

Estimating how much magic you need per encounter is an acquired skill - essentially you evaluate how much damage a given encounter can do to you and whether you can use any spells to minimize it. Example: You see an encounter with several ogre mages. You quickly realize that CCing them would be much more sensible than eating some nasty druid spells and having to rest because of low health or even dying. Example 2: You see a bunch of xaurips that do not even have enough accuracy to hit your tank. You don't use any spells (or use per encounter ones if you have them) because you win the encounter taking little to no damage anyway.

 

In the end, spells are just a resource similar to health, but they are more difficult to manage. Both in party and in solo play quite often I've run out of both more or less simultaneously.

Edited May 27, 2015 by MadDemiurg

[Vorad]

At level 9 and 11 ( and I guess at every odd level after that when an expansion will be made) your spells become per encounter so a level 9 wizard can spam all he wants his level 1 spells ect. (One of the many reasons why casters are considered OP at the endgame)

 

edit:

^^ beat me to it!

Edited May 27, 2015 by Vorad

[Torm51]

Thanks guys. All your explanations were great and my comment about not being able to exit were from a past experience in Od Nua when I didn't know there were master stair cases haha.

[Crucis]

I see people talking about spamming this spell etc with these classes and I wonder how?  If you are playing on hard or better you can only pack 2 camping supplies.  If you spam spells every pull you'd burn through those supplies quickly and would have to go back to town all the time... some areas of the game wont even let you leave until you complete the area.  I know you can spec those classes so that they can have extra lower level spells (I do) and equip them with gear that does the same but even then your spell use is limited.  Most of my average pulls are auto attacking with those classes while tanks tank and the  dpsers that don't  have per rest abilities go to town.  What am I missing?  I am just really afraid to use PER REST spells on those classes unless its a boss or things have gone down the toilet quickly...Am I playing wrong?

 

PS I just went on to WIKI and see that at high levels those classes get multiple low level spells per encounter not rest...makes more sense but even then you can definitely run out even with 16 level 1 one spells.  Maybe I am too conservative.

 

What's a "pull"?

 

[Razorchain]

Pull is when you pick your battleground and deny the enemy the advantage of superior numbers. Or when you exploit the A.I's stupidity

[Crucis]

Well, first of all I think you can exit ANY area in the game except the final one. Secondly, at levels 9 and 11 1st and 2nd level spells respectively become per encounter. When soloing I also tend not to bother with killing every damn ooze on the map since the rewards are marginal at best which significantly cuts the number of encounters you need to fight, but if you're a new player/play with full party this is probably not an option for you.

 

Estimating how much magic you need per encounter is an acquired skill - essentially you evaluate how much damage a given encounter can do to you and whether you can use any spells to minimize it. Example: You see an encounter with several ogre mages. You quickly realize that CCing them would be much more sensible than eating some nasty druid spells and having to rest because of low health or even dying. Example 2: You see a bunch of xaurips that do not even have enough accuracy to hit your tank. You don't use any spells (or use per encounter ones if you have them) because you win the encounter taking little to no damage anyway.

 

In the end, spells are just a resource similar to health, but they are more difficult to manage. Both in party and in solo play quite often I've run out of both more or less simultaneously.

 

MD, there's one other area that you can't retreat from that comes to mind.  Remember in the Endless Paths, IIRC on the 2nd level, there's some sort of pit you can scale down or jump into that takes you down to the 5th level?  You can't retreat back up that pit.  Of course, if you go down the stairs and get to the 5th level that way, retreat is an easy option.  OTOH if you take the drop down the pit, you have to fight your way through to find either the normal stairs back up, or the master staircase.  But there's no retreat.

 

As for the estimating how much magic is needed, you're 100% correct.  Sometimes encounters are best dealt with using physical force, and sometimes you need the party's heavy artillery support (i.e. magic) to get the job done.

[Kaigen42]

What's a "pull"?

 

A verb used primarily in MMOs to describe initiating combat at a distance from an enemy group, such that they move (are "pulled") towards the player to be engaged on the ground of the player's choosing. This is mainly used to move the battle away from other enemy groups who may be patrolling the area and might be drawn into the fight as reinforcements (see the Ogre Cave as one place in PoE where this is useful), but can also be used to exploit terrain features or traps. The term can also be used more generally as a noun to refer to a coherent instance of combat (see also "fight" or "encounter") or to a set of enemies that engage as a group and are difficult or impossible to fight separately.

 

More on topic, "needing to rest" can be thought of in terms party health vs. party per rest abilities as resources (assuming the problem isn't excessive fatigue because of too low Athletics). If you need to rest because you're out of per-rest abilities, you may be over using them. If you need to rest because health is low, you might not be making good enough use of your per-rest abilities to prevent damage. Perfect equilibrium is very difficult and arguably undesirable, as it implies that you almost lost the last fight and might not have had sufficient resources to survive if you had been less lucky. Keeping the two resources roughly even in terms of rate of use will help you feel like you aren't resting too much, though.

[Torm51]

Pull is when you pick your battleground and deny the enemy the advantage of superior numbers. Or when you exploit the A.I's stupidity

I meant just engaging the enemy.  I don't cheese and pull stuff. Its an MMO term old habits die hard.

[JONNIN]

you can't spam spells without constantly resting until you reach level 9.   At 9, you can cast level 1 spells per encounter -- with the right setups you can cast 5 or 6 level 1 spells per encounter.   That is where slicken spam begins to be an ugly tactic that can beat almost everything in the game, and your priest can armor buff you free, etc. 

 

Low level per-rest caster are garbage.  When you only have like 4 spells total per rest, at the beginning, it just stinks.    By the time you have level 4 spells, it starts to become fun to play these classes.  Druid works well there because it can per-encounter shapeshift and fight at low levels, swapping to spells later.  Priest is OK because his job is to help in tough fights, healing and buffing.  Wizard though... you can't do jack until about third level spells, and even then you have ot rest too much. 

 

Honestly a well made cipher (not the mother, bad stats) is better for a spell spam build.   Level 9 can be reached in defiance bay if you play a lot of side quests but its a long way to go waiting on a caster, esp wizard,  to become viable.   

[MadDemiurg]

MD, there's one other area that you can't retreat from that comes to mind.  Remember in the Endless Paths, IIRC on the 2nd level, there's some sort of pit you can scale down or jump into that takes you down to the 5th level?  You can't retreat back up that pit.  Of course, if you go down the stairs and get to the 5th level that way, retreat is an easy option.  OTOH if you take the drop down the pit, you have to fight your way through to find either the normal stairs back up, or the master staircase.  But there's no retreat.

 

As for the estimating how much magic is needed, you're 100% correct.  Sometimes encounters are best dealt with using physical force, and sometimes you need the party's heavy artillery support (i.e. magic) to get the job done.

 

Yeah, but it's your choice - jump or not. And I think you just need to beat the drake to access the master staircase which is one fight where you can go full nova.

 

you can't spam spells without constantly resting until you reach level 9.   At 9, you can cast level 1 spells per encounter -- with the right setups you can cast 5 or 6 level 1 spells per encounter.   That is where slicken spam begins to be an ugly tactic that can beat almost everything in the game, and your priest can armor buff you free, etc. 

 

Low level per-rest caster are garbage.  When you only have like 4 spells total per rest, at the beginning, it just stinks.    By the time you have level 4 spells, it starts to become fun to play these classes.  Druid works well there because it can per-encounter shapeshift and fight at low levels, swapping to spells later.  Priest is OK because his job is to help in tough fights, healing and buffing.  Wizard though... you can't do jack until about third level spells, and even then you have ot rest too much. 

 

Honestly a well made cipher (not the mother, bad stats) is better for a spell spam build.   Level 9 can be reached in defiance bay if you play a lot of side quests but its a long way to go waiting on a caster, esp wizard,  to become viable.   

Tbh I'd take even low level wizard over cipher any day. If you know both classes well enough to solo with either one you'll understand.

Edited May 27, 2015 by MadDemiurg

[taek]

 I am just really afraid to use PER REST spells on those classes unless its a boss or things have gone down the toilet quickly...Am I playing wrong?

 

 

I went through the same thing on my first playthrough.

 

The reality is:

- you don't know what mobs are difficult and easy. My first time Guls looked extremely dangerous, i unloaded spells on them. Turns out they're pretty wimpy. I thought Shades weren't too tough, your typical L1 undead like skeletons. Boy was I wrong. And there is a Shadow type that looks identical with 16 DR and sky high deflection, fairly nasty for L2-L3 characters.

- you don't know how big or large the areas are. Saving your spells for Magran's Fork? Not necessary it's tiny.  Burned all your spells on the first few encounters of the dungeon below Caed Nua? Prepare for a ton of backtracking for supplies back at Gilden Vale.

 

I found per rest casters awful in my first playthrough. It was much more manageable on 2nd playthroughs because you can now gauge what's easy/hard and have a sense of how big areas are.

 

But your reaction for the first time is totally normal IMO.

[MadDemiurg]

Tbh you don't need any knowledge of mobs and areas, you can gather intel that you need fairly quickly during your playthrough. And spell management is not even related to map sizes or whatever in any way. purely encounter difficulty. It's more about whether you know how to play vancian casters or not. A lot of people with no D&D experience find it difficult.

Edited May 27, 2015 by MadDemiurg

[manageri]

You can always rest anyway so the spells may as well be per encounter. The only thing running out of camping supplies means is that you must now endure a pointless ~30-60s of walking and loading. If you don't care about achievements you may as well just use the console to rest in those situations. commands are "iroll20s" and "rest".

[Torm51]

You can always rest anyway so the spells may as well be per encounter. The only thing running out of camping supplies means is that you must now endure a pointless ~30-60s of walking and loading. If you don't care about achievements you may as well just use the console to rest in those situations. commands are "iroll20s" and "rest".

I don't cheat man! but I hear you

 

 

Tbh you don't need any knowledge of mobs and areas, you can gather intel that you need fairly quickly during your playthrough. And spell management is not even related to map sizes or whatever in any way. purely encounter difficulty. It's more about whether you know how to play vancian casters or not. A lot of people with no D&D experience find it difficult.

 

Agreed.  I have played LIMITED D and D as in Neverwinter Nights (The original) when I was a kid (I am 30 now lol I want to pick them up) so you are correct the few times I played it I was like WTF prepared spells? And per rest spells??? hah but I greatly appreciate it now as I think it brings a tactical sense into the game.   but as far as RPGs go most of my experience has been, KOTOR, Dragon Age Series, Fallout Series, Mass Effect, Elder Scrolls, World of Warcraft for too long etc

[Crucis]

 

MD, there's one other area that you can't retreat from that comes to mind.  Remember in the Endless Paths, IIRC on the 2nd level, there's some sort of pit you can scale down or jump into that takes you down to the 5th level?  You can't retreat back up that pit.  Of course, if you go down the stairs and get to the 5th level that way, retreat is an easy option.  OTOH if you take the drop down the pit, you have to fight your way through to find either the normal stairs back up, or the master staircase.  But there's no retreat.

 

As for the estimating how much magic is needed, you're 100% correct.  Sometimes encounters are best dealt with using physical force, and sometimes you need the party's heavy artillery support (i.e. magic) to get the job done.

 

Yeah, but it's your choice - jump or not. And I think you just need to beat the drake to access the master staircase which is one fight where you can go full nova.

 

 

Actually, the Drake fight is the one big fight you don't have to do to get to the master staircase on that level.  I do agree that jumping down that hole is your choice.  But if you make that choice on your first run through of the game and you do it at too low a party level, you can find yourself in a world of hurt.  Avoiding the drake fight and getting to the master staircase (which BTW, you may not even know exists, since IIRC, level 5 is the first time you run across an entrance to it) isn't necessarily all that difficult.  But if you don't know any better and try to climb back up and out of the dungeon the long way, you'll hit the ogre level next, I think.  And that may be as bad or worse than the drake.  Dealing with a single ogre isn't impossible for a lower level party.  Dealing with a bunch of them with ogre druid support is darned right scary.

Edited May 28, 2015 by Crucis

[Torm51]

 

 

MD, there's one other area that you can't retreat from that comes to mind.  Remember in the Endless Paths, IIRC on the 2nd level, there's some sort of pit you can scale down or jump into that takes you down to the 5th level?  You can't retreat back up that pit.  Of course, if you go down the stairs and get to the 5th level that way, retreat is an easy option.  OTOH if you take the drop down the pit, you have to fight your way through to find either the normal stairs back up, or the master staircase.  But there's no retreat.

 

As for the estimating how much magic is needed, you're 100% correct.  Sometimes encounters are best dealt with using physical force, and sometimes you need the party's heavy artillery support (i.e. magic) to get the job done.

 

Yeah, but it's your choice - jump or not. And I think you just need to beat the drake to access the master staircase which is one fight where you can go full nova.

 

 

Actually, the Drake fight is the one big fight you don't have to do to get the the master staircase on that level.  I do agree that jumping down that hole is your choice.  But if you make that choice on your first run through of the game and you do it at too low a party level, you can find yourself in a world of hurt.  Avoiding the drake fight and getting to the master staircase (which BTW, you may not even know exists, since IIRC, level 5 is the first time you run across an entrance to it) isn't necessarily all that difficult.  But if you don't know any better and try to climb back up and out of the dungeon the long way, you'll hit the ogre level next, I think.  And that may be as bad or worse than the drake.  Dealing with a single ogre isn't impossible for a lower level party.  Dealing with a bunch of them with ogre druid support is darned right scary.

 

This was the exact death of my party on my first character.  Didn't know the master stair case existed even AFTER taking the drake down at level 4 on hard (not too shabby for my first time playing ever)...So I just got worn out at the Ogre level.

[Gromnir]

I see people talking about spamming this spell etc with these classes and I wonder how? 

you do realize that boardies tends toward hyperbole, yes? never trust gamer fish stories.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Crucis]

 

I see people talking about spamming this spell etc with these classes and I wonder how? 

you do realize that boardies tends toward hyperbole, yes? never trust gamer fish stories.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

 

Yeah, and they get all bent out of shape when you call them on it.