Annoyed by the end of Act 2

[Scimon]

I recently realised that after playing Pillars religiously from release I got to the start of Act three and just kind of fell off.

 

I keep starting it up and playing a bit then going off and continuing my long running game of Crusader Kings.

 

Did anyone else get so annoyed by the railroading at the end of Act Two? Where all of your actions for the last few hours were basically wiped out as you watched a cut scene?

 

Or was it just me?

 

[Omnicron]

I recently realised that after playing Pillars religiously from release I got to the start of Act three and just kind of fell off.

 

I keep starting it up and playing a bit then going off and continuing my long running game of Crusader Kings.

 

Did anyone else get so annoyed by the railroading at the end of Act Two? Where all of your actions for the last few hours were basically wiped out as you watched a cut scene?

 

Or was it just me?

 

 

Ummm.. did you just stop play there or did you keep going to see that you are able to return to Defiance Bay with all your choices in tact?

[Starwars]

End of Act II was probably the lowest point for me as well. I was not a fan of the plot railroading going on there either (though depending on your choices in that conversation, it does have an effect on the ending at least). But yeah, it seemed to me that it was a curious mistake to make. Especially after many similar complaints in NWN2 and the trial there where, again, the trial itself is nicely executed but in the end it just amounts to the "plot taking over".

 

But all in all, it didn't do much to deter my enjoyment of the game. As soon as I got to Twin Elms, I was hooked again.

[Guest]

Reminds me of that time I was playing Mass Effect and the Reapers still invaded. Or that time I was BG and I was still the bad guy's brother at the end (spoiler alert). Or that time I was playing...

[abaris]

Honestly, I feel the same with many games. When I feel the end is nigh, I kind of don't want it to end and my motivation to continue drops considerably. In this case, the level cap does add to this feeling, which wasn't a problem with the last game I had similar feelings: D:OS.

 

But I don't get annoyed with the game. In my case I just start over with a different player and look if I can do some things in a better way.

[Venatio]

I wasn't fond of the fact that Thaos just waltzed in and killed the Duc in the middle of the debates without so much as a wiff from us in his general direction. Here I was hoping to meet this Duc Aevar guy that I had been hearing about since I got to the city and he's killed in a cutscene. 

 

Also, why did we leave the city while it was still burning? Yes, we were "supposed" to be in hot pursuit of Thaos but really none of us ever actually rush to do that. May as well have let us stay in the city and help our faction sort things out, earn some medals or something. 

Edited May 20, 2015 by Venatio

[Starwars]

And it's also a bit odd from a production perspective in my opinion to have the Defiance Bay riots. I mean, it would obviously be a huge undertaking to "replace" Defiance Bay by a post-riot version but that's what it would take to make it work in my opinion. It feels so undercooked now to just have a few new dialogues about it and... that's it, except for the sanitarium having been burnt down. Everything's pretty chill, the rioters are calm, order is restored and everything's clean again.

 

It just seems like an odd thing to write into the narrative unless there indeed were more things planned for the post-riot city.

[Omnicron]

And it's also a bit odd from a production perspective in my opinion to have the Defiance Bay riots. I mean, it would obviously be a huge undertaking to "replace" Defiance Bay by a post-riot version but that's what it would take to make it work in my opinion. It feels so undercooked now to just have a few new dialogues about it and... that's it, except for the sanitarium having been burnt down. Everything's pretty chill, the rioters are calm, order is restored and everything's clean again.

 

It just seems like an odd thing to write into the narrative unless there indeed were more things planned for the post-riot city.

 Especially when you look at the end slides how it talks about how after the riots people were afraid to even leave their homes. I was like ummm... looked pretty chilled to me.

Edited May 20, 2015 by Omnicron

[Eywa]

I liked that moment, though it was silly of our character to do nothing and just look what Thaos was up to. Funny thing is that if we didn't investigate Leaden Key and told about it at the hearings non of it would have happened. Duc would probably just ban animancy since there never was any progress, thanks to Thaos... But because of our actions we forced Thaos to do something more obvious to insure animancy would be stoped.

Kinda sucks for animancers getting mass murdered like that although I didn't like them anyway, because of their experiments on people in Sanitarium and that stupid idea of implanting souls of animals into children.

 

I don't understand how is our speech on hearings about animancy does effect the ending though, I mean it doesn't matter what we said about it as soon as everyone saw that animancer killed Duc, nobody really cared about Leaden Key and our discoveries anymore. I don't believe our character was ever able to explain anything(or wanted to?) to people of Defiance Bay.

[Luckmann]

And it's also a bit odd from a production perspective in my opinion to have the Defiance Bay riots. I mean, it would obviously be a huge undertaking to "replace" Defiance Bay by a post-riot version but that's what it would take to make it work in my opinion. It feels so undercooked now to just have a few new dialogues about it and... that's it, except for the sanitarium having been burnt down. Everything's pretty chill, the rioters are calm, order is restored and everything's clean again.

 

It just seems like an odd thing to write into the narrative unless there indeed were more things planned for the post-riot city.

 

The riots happening never really made any sense to me either. It is implied that it's The Dozen that goes bananas, but it still feels.. sudden and forced, with very little build-up. Suddenly there's Dozens left, right and centre, fighting in the streets.

[Tigranes]

It's a mess from almost every single conceivable view. It screams of changed plans mid-development - I struggle to think how anyone would have planned it the way it turned out from the start, and thought it was a good idea. 

[Eywa]

The riots happening never really made any sense to me either. It is implied that it's The Dozen that goes bananas, but it still feels.. sudden and forced, with very little build-up. Suddenly there's Dozens left, right and centre, fighting in the streets.

 

I think it make sense, basically Dozens already hated animancers a lot and after they saw that animancer killed Duc they go bananas, yeah.

[Luckmann]

It's a mess from almost every single conceivable view. It screams of changed plans mid-development - I struggle to think how anyone would have planned it the way it turned out from the start, and thought it was a good idea. 

 

I can imagine that it was planned like that to be a sudden plot-twist, but that the delivery fell flat due to other things surrounding it being cut, and therefore was received largely negatively.

[abaris]

It's a mess from almost every single conceivable view. It screams of changed plans mid-development - I struggle to think how anyone would have planned it the way it turned out from the start, and thought it was a good idea. 

 

They probably didn't plan it that way. It may be that the gods of budget intervened.

 

I had the developer commentaries running at some point, but I don't think anyone comments on that issue.

[srlapo]

Did anyone else get so annoyed by the railroading at the end of Act Two? Where all of your actions for the last few hours were basically wiped out as you watched a cut scene?

 

But... they weren't. Even before my character left the city I spotted a dozens member saving some animancers from the riots because of my dialogue choices in the palace talks. And those choices sure affected the ending slides, as news about it were eventually heard by everyone in the city -after- the riots ended, shifting the blame to the leaden key and absolving the animancers.

[Varana]

I don't understand how is our speech on hearings about animancy does effect the ending though, I mean it doesn't matter what we said about it as soon as everyone saw that animancer killed Duc, nobody really cared about Leaden Key and our discoveries anymore. I don't believe our character was ever able to explain anything(or wanted to?) to people of Defiance Bay.

 

It does matter, as because of your influence, you may get a better ending for animancy. But it's not easy to achieve, most actions during the trial get you the standard ending.

 

As for the impact on Defiance Bay - when you first get to Caed Nua, several times the developer commentary mentions the difficulties of setting up a "dynamic" map with the technique they're using: the maps had to be built specifically around the fact that they would change and update later on. I think that's one of the main reasons why we don't see widespread destruction and substantial change to the maps themselves.

 

But generally speaking, yes - the trial was awkward. In pen and paper, such a scene would get a well-deserved angry rant - it's awfully railroady. Now, that's to be expected from a video game, but they usually manage to hide it a bit better.

Edited May 20, 2015 by Varana

[Crucis]

 

And it's also a bit odd from a production perspective in my opinion to have the Defiance Bay riots. I mean, it would obviously be a huge undertaking to "replace" Defiance Bay by a post-riot version but that's what it would take to make it work in my opinion. It feels so undercooked now to just have a few new dialogues about it and... that's it, except for the sanitarium having been burnt down. Everything's pretty chill, the rioters are calm, order is restored and everything's clean again.

 

It just seems like an odd thing to write into the narrative unless there indeed were more things planned for the post-riot city.

 

The riots happening never really made any sense to me either. It is implied that it's The Dozen that goes bananas, but it still feels.. sudden and forced, with very little build-up. Suddenly there's Dozens left, right and centre, fighting in the streets.

 

 

I don't see why the riots didn't make sense.  Even at the very start of Act 2, it's said that Defiance Bay is on the edge of exploding.  Maybe this wasn't explained well enough or shown in the course of our time in the city.  But it's far from a shock to me that there were riots, given that the game outright told us this.  Maybe there should have been more rabble-rousers like that Dozens guy near the entrance to the Copperlane district.  Or maybe a much more serious mob of protesters outside of the Ducal palace, rather than the 4-6 rather mild protesters that are there, IIRC.  Also, perhaps a mini-riot could have taken place somewhere in the city.

 

[Nakia]

The first time I played the end of Act 2 came as a shock to me.  I really was not expecting it.   I do suspect that time, budget and resources may have limited the developers.   Other than those few people you see when you enter Copperlane I didn't get the feeling of the city being filled with ragtag homeless refugees.  I didn't feel so much disappointed as bewildered.

[Dadalama]

yeah the whole trial irked me. I understand doing everything right and failing but I don't get that it's always the same outcome.

[Crucis]

yeah the whole trial irked me. I understand doing everything right and failing but I don't get that it's always the same outcome.

 

I think that you're misreading this.  If not for Thaos' act, the PC's words almost certainly would have had a difference on the Duc' decision.  The point is that Thaos' act completely superseded whatever was going on during the hearing, just as any assassination would do at any similar such hearing.  Do you think that the words of a hearing's witnesses is going to change what happens if a madman decides to assassinate someone at such a hearing?  Of course not.    The only way to change the outcome of that scene would have been for the PC to know Thaos' plans so that he could attempt to stop them.  But the PC doesn't know them.  The PC is there only to tell the Duc what's he's discovered and hopefully affect the Duc's decision.  

 

Frankly, I have no problem with the way the hearing scene ended.  (My only problem with that scene was that the Duc should have told the Dozen's representative to keep a civil tongue in his mouth, leave, or be arrested.)

[abaris]

The only way to change the outcome of that scene would have been for the PC to know Thaos' plans so that he could attempt to stop them.  But the PC doesn't know them.  The PC is there only to tell the Duc what's he's discovered and hopefully affect the Duc's decision.  

 

 

You can swing both ways at the hearing and Thaos can only swing two ways at the hearing. So one of the two possible outcomes must be in Thaos' interest.

[Eywa]

Frankly, I have no problem with the way the hearing scene ended.  (My only problem with that scene was that the Duc should have told the Dozen's representative to keep a civil tongue in his mouth, leave, or be arrested.)

 

Haha, ikr. That representative made me feel a bit embarrassed for backing up Dozens. Everyone at the hearings was so professional and civil except that guy, he was so mad and yelling all the time, felt like at any moment he would have killed that animancer in any case. :D

[Crucis]

 

Frankly, I have no problem with the way the hearing scene ended.  (My only problem with that scene was that the Duc should have told the Dozen's representative to keep a civil tongue in his mouth, leave, or be arrested.)

 

Haha, ikr. That representative made me feel a bit embarrassed for backing up Dozens. Everyone at the hearings was so professional and civil except that guy, he was so mad and yelling all the time, felt like at any moment he would have killed that animancer in any case. :D

 

 

The Knights' rep was a bit snarky at one point.  But at least she was snarky in a civil and professional way. 

 

The Dozens' rep was just a total embarrassment.  Seriously, this guy said that if the Duc didn't do what the Dozens wanted, the Dozens intended to start a civil war.  In the real world, this sort of thing could easily get you arrested.  I think that the Dozens' rep was really unrealistically written in this regard.   I think that it should have been possible to write the Dozens' rep in such a way that still showed the Dozens' considerable dissatisfaction with animancy without the character saying things that would be grossly unrealistic for an actual person in a similar situation.

[Crucis]

 

The only way to change the outcome of that scene would have been for the PC to know Thaos' plans so that he could attempt to stop them.  But the PC doesn't know them.  The PC is there only to tell the Duc what's he's discovered and hopefully affect the Duc's decision.  

 

 

You can swing both ways at the hearing and Thaos can only swing two ways at the hearing. So one of the two possible outcomes must be in Thaos' interest.

 

 

Not sure what you're trying to say here. 

 

Thaos wants to be certain that there's only one possible outcome ... his outcome.  That's why he does what he does.  He doesn't care what the various reps say.

Edited May 24, 2015 by Crucis

[abaris]

 

 

The only way to change the outcome of that scene would have been for the PC to know Thaos' plans so that he could attempt to stop them.  But the PC doesn't know them.  The PC is there only to tell the Duc what's he's discovered and hopefully affect the Duc's decision.  

 

 

You can swing both ways at the hearing and Thaos can only swing two ways at the hearing. So one of the two possible outcomes must be in Thaos' interest.

 

 

Not sure what you're trying to say here. 

 

Thaos wants to be certain that there's only one possible outcome ... his outcome.  That's why he does what he does.  He doesn't care what the various reps say.

 

 

But your argument only holds water if his outcome is to kill the Duc in any case to blame it on animancy. But if animancy is in fact outlawed in the proceedings, there's no need for him to further expose himself. So one of the two possible outcomes of the hearing should be in his favor and therefore not require direct action.