How many crap design decisions in one game! Remove "pulling" immediately!

[manageri]

The proper question is - who forces you to pull?

 

The game does if my perfectly reasonable and valid strategy is to control where the fight happens, such as in a choke point. So now because of this crap I have to choose from either bugging the game, or derping into a completely retarded position. Why should I as the player have to work to ensure the game presents the appropriate challenge? That's literally the exact goddamn opposite of what I should do.

[View619]

The game doesn't force you to pull individual targets. In fact, it's very easy to pull entire groups yet fight only a few at a time due to the way the AI interacts with choke points and barriers.

 

And yes, vanilla BG games had the same "issues" where you could pull individual units or even attack from outside their LOS without attracting attention. You could "abuse" choke points in those games too.

Edited May 20, 2015 by View619

[abaris]

You could "abuse" choke points in those games too.

 

I understand it rather as use than abuse. That's even one point where the combat is halfway realistic.

[Nakia]

 

The proper question is - who forces you to pull?

 

The game does if my perfectly reasonable and valid strategy is to control where the fight happens, such as in a choke point. So now because of this crap I have to choose from either bugging the game, or derping into a completely retarded position. Why should I as the player have to work to ensure the game presents the appropriate challenge? That's literally the exact goddamn opposite of what I should do.

 

Sorry I don't understand this comment at all.  Of course it is up to the player to decide how difficult or challenging the game is.  That is why the devs gave us a list of options to choose from.   The player also can decide how large or small they want their party and who is in it.

 

There is no one right way to play the game.  :D There may be wrong ways though.  If someone finds himself or herself losing what should be easy battles I would assume they are doing something wrong.  The goal is to win and how I go about that is my choice.

[kozzy]

lol

[manageri]

Sorry I don't understand this comment at all.  Of course it is up to the player to decide how difficult or challenging the game is.  That is why the devs gave us a list of options to choose from. 

 

 

Where exactly is the option to make entire groups aggro reliably again? Oh, that's right, it doesn't exist. So I'm stuck with this **** no matter what. And no, this is not the same thing as difficulty, which dictates how hard the fights are. This is about whether that difficulty you chose for the fight is what you get, or whether a large goddamn section of the difficulty you chose had their thumbs up their ass in the corner and didn't get aggroed, often without you even knowing they were there, let alone actively trying to abuse the pull mechanic. It's a buggy piece of **** that should be fixed, end of rational discussion (not that that means anything on the internet).

[Exoduss]

Dude just look how PoE reached its target audience , the game is trivial and mediocre casuals are happy about it , mods wont fix this lol 

[Valorian]

In a single player game how one plays the game is their business.  Others may consider certain tactics cheesy or even cheating but it does not affect them in any way.   

 

That's not how it works. The presence of cheese affects how people play the game and their enjoyment of the game. I don't enjoy making ad hoc rules to counter a game's balance flaws, but I don't enjoy exploiting these flaws either. It's a nuisance unless developers address it.

 

Would you tell someone who finds armor and shields overly powerful in PoE to simply not use them? If yes, that would be as stupid as urging them not to use a tactic that overshadows all other tactics. Ignoring problematic (100% win) elements doesn't improve the game.

 

I commend Obsidian for making balance changes in patches. "IMMEDIATELY!!!" was unnecessary though.

[Nakia]

I fail to see how being able to lure an enemy or group of enemies into a position that is beneficial to my party is a flaw.  If I have to fight or want to fight I fight to win.  I will use any means available to do so.   

 

If  any one thinks that is abusing the system or  being cheesy that is their opinion.  They have a right to that opinion but no one is forcing them to do what I do.  

 

I am not saying that improvements to  the enemy AI couldn't be made what  I am saying is that how you play the current system is up to you.  The game is written to give players choices.  Choices  that do have consequences and that includes how you set up your battle.  

 

Could the aggro be improved?  Maybe, maybe not.  

[Valorian]

I fail to see how being able to lure an enemy or group of enemies into a position that is beneficial to my party is a flaw.  If I have to fight or want to fight I fight to win.  I will use any means available to do so.   

 

 

Yes, you fail to see the flaws within the luring system. I already explained some problems with it here: http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/76990-to-lure-or-not-to-lure-combat-ai-and-stuff/

 

A group of enemies should act as a group of enemies. Cheesy tactics are not god-given or universe-given rights, it's up to design. Design can change and often should, but I disagree that this game has "many crap design decisions" (as OP proclaimed). All the ingredients are there, it just needs some tweaks.

[Nakia]

We must be playing a different game.  I have had whole groups head to the choke point.   

[roller12]

 

Sorry I don't understand this comment at all.  Of course it is up to the player to decide how difficult or challenging the game is.  That is why the devs gave us a list of options to choose from. 

 

 

Where exactly is the option to make entire groups aggro reliably again? Oh, that's right, it doesn't exist. So I'm stuck with this **** no matter what. And no, this is not the same thing as difficulty, which dictates how hard the fights are. This is about whether that difficulty you chose for the fight is what you get, or whether a large goddamn section of the difficulty you chose had their thumbs up their ass in the corner and didn't get aggroed, often without you even knowing they were there, let alone actively trying to abuse the pull mechanic. It's a buggy piece of **** that should be fixed, end of rational discussion (not that that means anything on the internet).

 

Formation, advance, everything is aggroed, have fun. The game gives the player the first strike even, and with pause enemy-on-sight its impossible to get ambushed and possible to regroup and attack properly, so there isnt even a need for a scout. A very good feature and a  solid micro reduction from IE games in my opinion, as that scouting ahead thing was quite annoying.

[JONNIN]

I can only think of 2 or 3 fights where you don't get all the enemy at once.   Rad's throne room, if you attack them without talking, leaves one paladin and one mage behind sometimes.   They aggro, but they can't find you and wander around up top the throne.   The really stupidly big kobold /drake fight.   Not too many others... there was one other big fight of weak guys but I cant remember it now, one peon got confused, no big deal.

 

But so what?   The difficulty of these fights with one more guy is not significantly changed.  Of those, the wizard is the only game-changer, he might have gotten a spell off with serious consequences (but the dumb AI wizards have a habit of doing low quality spells most of the time).   The rest of them ... one more kobold spear idiot is not going to change the fight difficulty one little bit.  For the most part, when an enemy gets lost or confused and does not tag along, the effect is minimal.

[Chucky]

Maybe you should do at least some research before hating like a spoiled kid...

 

There is a Modification calles "iemod" which changes a lot of the design choices around to make it more like the old IE Games like BG or IWD. One of this "fixes" removes the Engagement system altogether and tweaks the AI a bit, so monsters turn on other heros if the way is blocked for example. I don't know if it is this u mean, but imho the mod does a great job. Link:  http://rien-ici.com/iemod/pillars_of_eternity

 

Btw, pulling was a part of BG for me, because getting surrounded by enemies meant certain death in most cases.

[Bohuntin]

How would you resolve combat in any other way than pulling the enemy to your prepared position? Rushing in with guns blazing?

In D&D-based games my plan is to charge in and roll 20s... but in PoE that sucks (

[NerdCommando]

In D&D-based games my plan is to charge in and roll 20s... but in PoE that sucks (

Actually, you can totally do that.  I'm making a PoTD PoE LP at now (at russian, though, so it's not about self-promotion) and, as you can see, I'm fighting Raedric fair and square, without all that "choke point" boring crap. The fight is difficult, of course, and, before that take, there were two failures, but that makes the game actually interesting - when he's finally defeated somewhere at minute 32, it was really fun for me.

[JONNIN]

 

How would you resolve combat in any other way than pulling the enemy to your prepared position? Rushing in with guns blazing?

In D&D-based games my plan is to charge in and roll 20s... but in PoE that sucks (

 

 

Ironically iroll20s is the unlock for cheat console commands

[roller12]

Actually, you can totally do that.  I'm making a PoTD PoE LP at now (at russian, though, so it's not about self-promotion) and, as you can see, I'm fighting Raedric fair and square, without all that "choke point" boring crap. The fight is difficult, of course, and, before that take, there were two failures, but that makes the game actually interesting - when he's finally defeated somewhere at minute 32, it was really fun for me.

You used 2 metagame exploits. Pretrapping location, and intentionally avoided areas known to become unsafe in the future. Just imagine someone goes to a bank and sets a stun trap in front of security personal. Modded BG2 mobs instantly go hostile if pretrapped. Not that i actually have a problem with that, its just funny how people use exploits and then complain the game is too easy. Is the game really that difficult, i just talked to Raedric and beat the crap out of him with premades party on hard.

Edited May 21, 2015 by roller12

[taek]

Then don't pull??

 

It's a SP game why is it so hard to simply not use mechanics you don't like? Isn't that the entire point of a SP game to customize your experience and not have to taken into account how other people want to play?

 

I also find pulling immersion breaking...which is why i always charge all my party into encounters full speed and never hide behind doorways.  Thankfully mages can wear plate and use a shield in this game.