the gods exist?with whom I spoke at the temple if the gods do not exist?

[Nakia]

I think White Phoenix is correct and the sequel will continue the Watcher's story.

Quote from the PoE WIKI

 

 The default ending.

For you, the death of Thaos brought an end to your waking visions, and a silence to the whispers of the past. In their absence, you were able to sleep.

The questions of a distant lifetime ceased to trouble your soul. All that remained was what to make of the answer.

[AshenPlanet]

I thought Durance actually had the best storyline out of all the characters.  In my first play through, he realized what Magran had done, and how she had her 11 most faithful killed off just to keep the secret.  Durance pledged to find a way to kill Magran, and I believe him.

 

I'd go as far as to say my character would join with him and help try to kill Magran.  It took 12 faithful to kill eothas, (and, yes, I think Eothas is dead as do most of the people in Dyrwood).  It may take another 12 to kill Magran, but I and Durance are 2, and we can surely find 10 more (Eder and hiravias are 2 who may be easy to sway)...

 

As for the actions Magran took not making sense, I think they make total sense.  Magran is all about preserving herself and her powers.  She does not want to die, she will fight to keep her life and her spheres of influences intact.  When Woedica became too powerful, with the infusion of too many souls (think to your flashbacks of a previous life, where an entire city was sacrificed to infuse her with more souls), Magran had to stop her as Woedica threatened to become the one true god, and eliminate all the others, to create a monotheism from the existing pantheon.  She banded with the other gods and burned Woedica, they divested her of all the soul power she had gained from the inquisitions and mass sacrifices.  When Eothas made his play, his intent was to reveal the secret, to show every peasant that they had the power to stop the gods.  Of course, Magran had to stop him, she broke her own rules, and empowered the dozen to kill the God who could end her way of life.  That makes perfect sense to me.  At that moment, Eothas was the biggest threat to her continued existence, a bigger threat than Woedica.  She is god of war, she burned one who thought herself Caesar, and she helped kill another God who threatened all the gods.  What she did afterwards to take out her own followers to keep the secrets of God-killing hidden, is what gives Durance (and me) the drive to kill her as well.

 

Durance killed 1 God, He can very well kill another...

 

[Nakia]

 AshenPlanet, I like your explanation and where you are going with it.  As for killing Magran and possibly other gods you may not need twelve.  You just might be able to do it with six strong souls.  This why I think that could be possible.

 

The stealing of souls is ended.  The gods no longer are being fed new souls.  There is a possibility that they will receive some essence from those that worship them but it will not be in the quantity that was previously provided them.  This will weaken them, lessen their powers and make them more vulnerable.

 

I am not convinced that Eothas is truly dead.  Woedica was not killed  by a god only stripped of her powers and cast out.  You are still the Watcher although no longer haunted by the past.  You have been through your trial, you are the sword forged in fire, strengthened by adversity and you have emerged stronger and more powerful than when you started.

 

My first playthrough I didn't care for Durance and paid little attention to him.  Then I  realized he may be the most important companion.  He has some really interesting things so say.   His language may be a bit off putting but under those coarse words lie a great deal of truth and wisdom.  It will be a long journey but with Durance at your side and four other strong companions you will once more be successful.

 

I will not wish you the blessings of the gods for you won't get those but you do not need any one's blessing you have your own.

[FlintlockJazz]

The vision of an entire city giving themselves up to create a god (they weren't feeding it from what I can garner, you were witnessing the creation of one or more of the gods) raises a question that is either intended to be answered (or at least pondered on) in future games or the writers assumed something about human nature I find hard to swallow: why would all those people willingly give up their lives and souls, and the lives and souls of their children they held with them, to create a god?  I understand that those who ran the Leaden Key and engineered it all believed it to be needed because of the idea that without gods people would go crazy or something, but what would prompt that many people to sacrifice themselves for what is basically an idea?  It's quite a severe reaction to finding out there doesn't seem to be any gods, so there must have been something more going on, right?

[FlintlockJazz]

I thought Durance actually had the best storyline out of all the characters.  In my first play through, he realized what Magran had done, and how she had her 11 most faithful killed off just to keep the secret.  Durance pledged to find a way to kill Magran, and I believe him.

 

I'd go as far as to say my character would join with him and help try to kill Magran.  It took 12 faithful to kill eothas, (and, yes, I think Eothas is dead as do most of the people in Dyrwood).  It may take another 12 to kill Magran, but I and Durance are 2, and we can surely find 10 more (Eder and hiravias are 2 who may be easy to sway)...

 

As for the actions Magran took not making sense, I think they make total sense.  Magran is all about preserving herself and her powers.  She does not want to die, she will fight to keep her life and her spheres of influences intact.  When Woedica became too powerful, with the infusion of too many souls (think to your flashbacks of a previous life, where an entire city was sacrificed to infuse her with more souls), Magran had to stop her as Woedica threatened to become the one true god, and eliminate all the others, to create a monotheism from the existing pantheon.  She banded with the other gods and burned Woedica, they divested her of all the soul power she had gained from the inquisitions and mass sacrifices.  When Eothas made his play, his intent was to reveal the secret, to show every peasant that they had the power to stop the gods.  Of course, Magran had to stop him, she broke her own rules, and empowered the dozen to kill the God who could end her way of life.  That makes perfect sense to me.  At that moment, Eothas was the biggest threat to her continued existence, a bigger threat than Woedica.  She is god of war, she burned one who thought herself Caesar, and she helped kill another God who threatened all the gods.  What she did afterwards to take out her own followers to keep the secrets of God-killing hidden, is what gives Durance (and me) the drive to kill her as well.

 

Durance killed 1 God, He can very well kill another...

Woedica did not gain soul power from the Inquisition, I think you are misinterpreting that vision: that wasn't Woedica being empowered but either her or another god (or all the gods) being created in the first place.  Woedica did not threaten to become the one god which prompted the rebellion, she was already head of the pantheon at the time and quite possibly from the start and the other gods overthrew her and messed her up. 

 

The issue isn't whether it makes sense for Magran to do that but that there is no evidence that she did it because she was allied with Woedica at the time or that Eothas was trying to expose the Leaden Key.  Those two things seem to come out of nowhere and is not supported with what we do find out in the game.  All we know is that some being that claimed to Eothas went on a rampage and Magran got some dudes to blow him up.

 

 AshenPlanet, I like your explanation and where you are going with it.  As for killing Magran and possibly other gods you may not need twelve.  You just might be able to do it with six strong souls.  This why I think that could be possible.

 

The stealing of souls is ended.  The gods no longer are being fed new souls.  There is a possibility that they will receive some essence from those that worship them but it will not be in the quantity that was previously provided them.  This will weaken them, lessen their powers and make them more vulnerable.

 

The gods were not being fed souls.  The Hollowborn Crisis was Thaos gathering souls to empower Woedica but the other gods were not being fed souls, so no they will not weaken at all. 

[PrimeJunta]

Apotheosis, dude.

 

The notion of merging your soul with (a) god is present in many religions. That just gave it a highly concrete meaning. They didn't die: they became a part of something vastly greater, more powerful, and more meaningful.

[FlintlockJazz]

Apotheosis, dude.

 

The notion of merging your soul with (a) god is present in many religions. That just gave it a highly concrete meaning. They didn't die: they became a part of something vastly greater, more powerful, and more meaningful.

I know that's why some would go along with it, but an entire city?  Including parents taking their kids along who wouldn't be able to make the choice for themselves?  I'd expect something like this to split a society, not only would some refuse to go along with it they would probably actively sabotage those who do.  And the vast majority would not even take sides, they would go "Well as long as it doesn't affect me..."  The average member of a population doesn't care enough about religious matters or long term issues to do something like this.  There's either something else going on here or most of the people were told lies and didn't actually know what was really going to happen. 

Edited May 18, 2015 by FlintlockJazz

[Varana]

IIRC, this was a project of more or less the entire Engwithan civilisation, without necessarily having all Engwithans sacrifice themselves. That is, the people we "see" in the creation of the gods are those who agreed to be sacrificed, not everyone.

As for children and so on, take a look at our world.

 

As I understand it, the "greater good" they tried to achieve was the perpetuation of their values. The gods were made to represent the ideals and values of Engwithan belief, and they were created as immortal, powerful beings to spread these values to all the world and keep watch that all (or all the major) cultures followed those beliefs. It's theological imperialism.

[FlintlockJazz]

IIRC, this was a project of more or less the entire Engwithan civilisation, without necessarily having all Engwithans sacrifice themselves. That is, the people we "see" in the creation of the gods are those who agreed to be sacrificed, not everyone.

As for children and so on, take a look at our world.

 

As I understand it, the "greater good" they tried to achieve was the perpetuation of their values. The gods were made to represent the ideals and values of Engwithan belief, and they were created as immortal, powerful beings to spread these values to all the world and keep watch that all (or all the major) cultures followed those beliefs. It's theological imperialism.

I doubt the babies it mentions people holding agreed to anything.  If it involved the entire society then there would have been some who would have gone around telling the truth of what the gods really were, you wouldn't need the heretic woman whose name I cannot remember to find out and spread it since it would already have people doing that.  What about our world and children?  If you mean how they are used against their will then that goes against it being volunteers who agreed to be sacrificed, and if they are too young to talk or understand what it is they are doing then they cannot volunteer. 

 

The greater good as stated by Thaos was to prevent others from finding out there were no gods in the belief that it would lead to everyone doing as they pleased without consideration for the consequences which would lead to destruction of society.  There is no evidence that these gods represent Engwithan belief or that it was done for theological imperialism.

 

EDIT:  Basically, I cannot see why an entire society would be so committed to what is essentially a belief that other people can't cope without gods, to such an extent that the entirety of them would go along with it en mass unless there is something else going on here that we have yet to find out.

Edited May 18, 2015 by FlintlockJazz

[Nakia]

We can not judge a medieval society by our modern beliefs and standards.  The Engwithans may have had advanced technology but they were using the idea of gods to try and control a world.  "It's theological imperialism." as  Varana says.  Religion was the fore runner of science.  The attempt by people to explain and even control what they did not understand.  It wasn't that long ago historically that kings ruled by "divine right".   If you check your ancient history babies were sacrificed to the gods.  I can't remember the name of the goddess mention in the  Bible but it was I believe one of the reasons the Hebrews felt justified in wiping out her followrs.

 

People who protested the means used to spread the Engwithian beliefs would have been quickly silenced.  Religion can offer a lot of positive things but it can also be used to be repressive.  Still is for that matter.  Religion is a powerful force and should not be underestimated either for good or for evil.

 

I am very curious where OE will go with this or if they will get cold feet and cop out for some fantasy trope.

 

edit: Do we know what happened to the Engwithians?

Edited May 18, 2015 by Nakia

[FlintlockJazz]

We can not judge a medieval society by our modern beliefs and standards.  The Engwithans may have had advanced technology but they were using the idea of gods to try and control a world.  "It's theological imperialism." as  Varana says.  Religion was the fore runner of science.  The attempt by people to explain and even control what they did not understand.  It wasn't that long ago historically that kings ruled by "divine right".   If you check your ancient history babies were sacrificed to the gods.  I can't remember the name of the goddess mention in the  Bible but it was I believe one of the reasons the Hebrews felt justified in wiping out her followrs.

 

People who protested the means used to spread the Engwithian beliefs would have been quickly silenced.  Religion can offer a lot of positive things but it can also be used to be repressive.  Still is for that matter.  Religion is a powerful force and should not be underestimated either for good or for evil.

 

I am very curious where OE will go with this or if they will get cold feet and cop out for some fantasy trope.

 

edit: Do we know what happened to the Engwithians?

I know all that, but saying "They thought differently back then" is a cop out.  There are reasons for why people believe as they do, it might be ****ed up but you can usually work out a logic behind it, and there is always human nature.  Varana said that they volunteered for it, you are saying that they were forced into it, if they were forced into it then there wouldn't be this discussion but the vision at the end shows nothing like that.  It showed people who seemed to know exactly what was going to happen and willing to go along with it.  From what we know of the Engwithans, they seemed to be a very scientific culture, advanced in animancy, which is another reason to suspect this act of group suicide/ascension. 

 

As to it being theological imperialism, there is absolutely no evidence of it in the game: the gods not only don't present a unified system of beliefs but are often contradictory to each, some overlap, and most don't even seem relevant to what we know of the Engwithans.  The goal presented in the game wasn't a theological domination it was to stop other people finding out that there were no 'real' gods for fear of the impact it would have upon the world.

 

We do know what happened to the Engwithans, they were all fed to the machines to make the gods, that is what the vision is showing and that is why I think there must be something else going on for an entire culture to sacrifice itself like that.

[Nakia]

No I am saying or rather implying that some volunteered out of belief and some were forced into it.

 

Granted the gods are actually at odds with each other.  The Engwithians were the ones who were trying for a theological imperialism.  I don't know if we have enough information to come to any agreement over the subject.  

 

I am not convinced that everything said or portrayed is fact.  I am not convinced that we can believe everything we are told but I tend to be a skeptic.

 

Much as I like Eothas if I had to choose a god in the game to worship it would be Wael.

[Varana]

I doubt the babies it mentions people holding agreed to anything.  If it involved the entire society then there would have been some who would have gone around telling the truth of what the gods really were, you wouldn't need the heretic woman whose name I cannot remember to find out and spread it since it would already have people doing that.  What about our world and children?  If you mean how they are used against their will then that goes against it being volunteers who agreed to be sacrificed, and if they are too young to talk or understand what it is they are doing then they cannot volunteer. 

 

The greater good as stated by Thaos was to prevent others from finding out there were no gods in the belief that it would lead to everyone doing as they pleased without consideration for the consequences which would lead to destruction of society.  There is no evidence that these gods represent Engwithan belief or that it was done for theological imperialism.

 

EDIT:  Basically, I cannot see why an entire society would be so committed to what is essentially a belief that other people can't cope without gods, to such an extent that the entirety of them would go along with it en mass unless there is something else going on here that we have yet to find out.

 

 

Well, the babies obviously weren't asked personally. They were volunteered by their parents, so to speak. Yes, that's not strictly voluntary, but that distinction, I'd guess, doesn't matter to one like Thaos. "They sacrificed themselves and their children", if we're trying to be exact.

 

What we see at the creation of the gods is obviously not all of Engwithan civilisation - a civilisation that fits into one (albeit large) room isn't really a civilisation. We don't know what happened at the other cities - the machines at Heritage Hill and at Cilant Lis would suggest that there were similar rituals at other sites, as well, but to what extent the Engwithans self-destroyed, we don't exactly know.

 

Yes, that was what they feared. They feared that if the other cultures found out that there were no gods, they would lack moral compass. That's why they created that compass. They created the gods they thought would be necessary to continue a civilised society as they saw it. That means by the creation of certain gods with certain portfolios, they were imposing their ethics and world views on those who followed those gods.

Yes, the gods are not a clear-cut pantheon with non-contradicting portfolios. But that's how polytheism works. That creates the illusion of free choice between ideals and beliefs: if you prefer Eothas over Berath, you may certainly do so. That's fine because both represent beliefs that the Engwithans tried to encourage.

If you look at the pantheon, you see a stress on inevitability, the rule of law, trials, individual strength, and the like. Compassion, helping the poor, community, the greater good - that isn't represented to the same degree. You have, obviously, no god who favours science and scientific exploration - instead, you have Wael, who is well fitted to what the Leaden Key does: obscuring facts, even if you happen to discover them. And so on - the bias is more subtle, but it is there.

Edited May 18, 2015 by Varana

[FlintlockJazz]

That's the point I've been arguing though, for people to volunteer up their children for sacrifice requires them to either believe in some religion or have some reason.  The reason put forward in the game is that they believed other cultures would lack a moral compass, not some great religion on the contrary it was supposedly the fear that people would not have a religion that led them to do it.  This based on some theory they came up with as what might happen, this does not seem a strong enough reason for an entire civilisation to all agree en mass to throw themselves into a soul-machine, leading me to think there is something more going on.

 

You can both think they did it for 'theological imperialism' but there is zero evidence in the game to back this up.  Maybe it was the reason, but until something is presented proving this then it is mere conjecture and nothing more.  I do not believe the pantheon in any way embodies Engwithan ideals particularly, it might do but we see nothing to prove one way or another, no one even mentions it as a possibility in the game.

[abaris]

 

 

These gods do remind me of the Greek and Norse gods that were very much to me constructs of humans and reflected the good and bad in humans, the best and worse.

 

Show me one deity that doesn't reflect human morals and vices depending on the time and region they first cropped up. They're all created in our image.

 

As for these gods, they represent the good old celestial government that can be found in so many polytheistic cultures. Each god is a minister, responsible for certain sectors of the administration of worldly affairs.

[Varana]

That's the point I've been arguing though, for people to volunteer up their children for sacrifice requires them to either believe in some religion or have some reason.  The reason put forward in the game is that they believed other cultures would lack a moral compass, not some great religion on the contrary it was supposedly the fear that people would not have a religion that led them to do it.  This based on some theory they came up with as what might happen, this does not seem a strong enough reason for an entire civilisation to all agree en mass to throw themselves into a soul-machine, leading me to think there is something more going on.

 

You can both think they did it for 'theological imperialism' but there is zero evidence in the game to back this up.  Maybe it was the reason, but until something is presented proving this then it is mere conjecture and nothing more.  I do not believe the pantheon in any way embodies Engwithan ideals particularly, it might do but we see nothing to prove one way or another, no one even mentions it as a possibility in the game.

 

I would compare the Engwithan's belief with one of the modern ideologies. Not a religion per se, as they don't have higher beings, but a pseudo-religion, which commanded religious devotion without being one. Real-life examples for that (not in content, but in form) would maybe be movements like Scientology or utopian Communism: They strongly believed in making sacrifices to make the world a better place, without needing a god-like being for that.

The Engwithans took that devotion to the extreme: sacrificing their very lives so that other peoples could live on a better world.

But that's why it's Fantasy. And it's one of the reasons why I think that they tried to impose their moral beliefs on the world, because that gives an additional reason for their sacrifice: They could shape the future. They didn't just ensure that the peoples after them would live in a better world, they tried to ensure that they lived how the Engwithans wanted them to live.

 

Yes, we don't have direct evidence - we generally speculate from small scraps of information, coming from biased sources. But I think it's the best explanation of why the Engwithans created those gods specifically, and not others.

Edited May 20, 2015 by Varana

[SlayerDorian]

It seems to be general consensus in the game, IIRC, that death and rebirth usually wipes a soul's memory - you do not remember your past lives. Watchers are an exemption to this, as is Thaos. Whether memories are really deleted or just buried and may be brought back, is not made completely clear, I think.

 

Watchers are not exempt to the memory wipe.  Watchers and having an awakened soul are two different things.  The main character just happens to be both.  It's pretty clear that the soul remembers everything, it's just buried unless something triggers an awakening.  This is evident in the sanitarium.  One lady in there got awakened to a past life where she was rich and famous, which drove her mad because in her current life she was quite the opposite.  She was not a watch at all.  Same with Aloth, he is not a watcher but was awakened, at least to some degree, to a past life.  Again, there was a trigger for this.

[Elerond]

That's the point I've been arguing though, for people to volunteer up their children for sacrifice requires them to either believe in some religion or have some reason.  The reason put forward in the game is that they believed other cultures would lack a moral compass, not some great religion on the contrary it was supposedly the fear that people would not have a religion that led them to do it.  This based on some theory they came up with as what might happen, this does not seem a strong enough reason for an entire civilisation to all agree en mass to throw themselves into a soul-machine, leading me to think there is something more going on.

 

You can both think they did it for 'theological imperialism' but there is zero evidence in the game to back this up.  Maybe it was the reason, but until something is presented proving this then it is mere conjecture and nothing more.  I do not believe the pantheon in any way embodies Engwithan ideals particularly, it might do but we see nothing to prove one way or another, no one even mentions it as a possibility in the game.

 

They had belief in higher power they had so much belief in them that they dedicated whole their civilization for several generations to research ways to find that higher power and persuade them to come back and lead kith to better and more moral life and stop constant war in name of invented gods who don't have any real power. But when their research showed that cycle of souls is not controlled by any higher entity and there aren't any higher entities in universe, meaning that the belief which their society was based on and which their whole lives  and lives of those before them were based on was wrong, that cause massive shock in their civilization that drive them to act that would rectify this mistake in universe and bring world in to state which it belongs (in their belief), and that act was to use their knowledge about souls and unify souls of their civilization to become to those higher entities that would guide kith to better life.

 

At least that is my take on what game tells us about why they sacrificed themselves to create gods.  

[the streaker]

Just to clarify, I was pretty sure the whole of Engwithan civilization was not sacrificed to create the gods. During the final flashback, you see thousands of people in a chamber being sacrificed to create a god, not an entire civilization.

 

Also, the watcher's soul was (I thought) an Engwithan in a past life, part of the Leaden Key, so obviously not every Engwithan has gone into the adra.

[Nakia]

Just to clarify, I was pretty sure the whole of Engwithan civilization was not sacrificed to create the gods. During the final flashback, you see thousands of people in a chamber being sacrificed to create a god, not an entire civilization.

 

Also, the watcher's soul was (I thought) an Engwithan in a past life, part of the Leaden Key, so obviously not every Engwithan has gone into the adra.

This is how I feel.  I also think Kna brings up this possibility as he seems to believe that his civilization was either built on Engwithian civilization or may even have arisen directly from it.  

[Zwiebelchen]

I think the keypoint that a lot of people seem to be missing about the pantheon in PoE is that:

If the gods were created by kith themselves, as just an accumulation of soul energy, they are neither omnipresent, nor impeccable.

In fact, a lot of the lategame dialogues center around the idea that the gods are just as flawed as the kith that they created.

 

That's why I feel it is perfectly reasonable that Magran sided against Eothas. Or against anyone for that matter. It's all conspiracy and self-empowerment. It is pretty much clear that they all lust for more power and take whatever means to accomplish that, no matter who has to suffer for it.

 

Even Hylea, who was pretty much displayed as the goddess of birds and life and overall the most "lawful good" deity as her central theme will punish the Dyrwood by force if you betray her at Sun in Shadows.

 

 

Basicly, if you consider the PoE gods as being equally flawed as humans, all they do and did throughout the storyline seems perfectly reasonable. And makes the point that the gods are just artifically created stockpiles of souls even more devestating for any follower of a god throughout the game.

[Nakia]

@ Zwiebelchen, I agree with you.

 

 We should remember that the gods can be deceitful, can betray their followers, cause wars and all kinds of dissension.  This is why I distrust a lot of what is said in the game.  If the devs stay true to their motif this should become clear in an expansion or sequel.  The gods lie, the Engwaithians created them according so the tale goes to bring law and order and high morals to the world.  So why did they create such flawed and amoral gods?  Can we believe anything, anyone in this game.  Peoples belief are based on a lie.

 

I find conversations with Durance interesting because he seems to be the one person who recognizes this.

[Zwiebelchen]

@ Zwiebelchen, I agree with you.

 

 We should remember that the gods can be deceitful, can betray their followers, cause wars and all kinds of dissension.  This is why I distrust a lot of what is said in the game.  If the devs stay true to their motif this should become clear in an expansion or sequel.  The gods lie, the Engwaithians created them according so the tale goes to bring law and order and high morals to the world.  So why did they create such flawed and amoral gods?  Can we believe anything, anyone in this game.  Peoples belief are based on a lie.

 

I find conversations with Durance interesting because he seems to be the one person who recognizes this.

 

Yeah this is actually a clever idea and I'd love to explore this further in expansions. Let's just hope that all the major lore dumps for the gods have been done by now, so we can concentrate on more visual narrative.

While the story about the gods and their betrayals was interesting, it absolutely wasn't fun to read through all this. Massive lore dumps everywhere ... Obsidian really has to improve on this in the sequels. The whole act 3 was painful to follow because of that.

 

To go back to the quote above:

The interesting thing about the engwithians creating false gods to bring morals to the world is that they actually succeeded in this, even if the gods they created were flawed. In making the gods very close to kith, making them selfish and power-hungry, they made sure that what they cared most for was their "image". Which in turn works as a damage control so that they just can't do whatever they want and stay true to their ideals, in fear that they would lose their followers. So, in a way, flawless gods were never even neccesary to begin with.

Edited May 28, 2015 by Zwiebelchen