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the gods exist?with whom I spoke at the temple if the gods do not exist?


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Yes, they exist. They are real. The question was never about their existence, but their origin - and if they deserve to be called gods at all. I assume you finished the game already? They were created by the Engwithans, huge amalgams of souls to represent their ideals. Powerful, potentially immortal, but kith-made. Killable. They didn't create the kith, they were created by them. The Wheel existed before them. So can these constructs be called gods, do they have the right to rule over kith? Make up your own mind.

Edited by Rosveen
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Rosveen nailed it. What people consider to be "gods" is nothing more than very advanced technology. As for actual gods, they either never existed or disappeared (aka deism). What you spoke to in the temple were kith-made.

"Art and song are creations but so are weapons and lies"

"Our worst enemies are inventions of the mind. Pleasure. Fear. When we see them for what they are, we become unstoppable."

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Yes, they exist. They are real. The question was never about their existence, but their origin - and if they deserve to be called gods at all. I assume you finished the game already? They were created by the Engwithans, huge amalgams of souls to represent their ideals. Powerful, potentially immortal, but kith-made. Killable. They didn't create the kith, they were created by them. The Wheel existed before them. So can these constructs be called gods, do they have the right to rule over kith? Make up your own mind.

 

One tiny, teensy-weensy possible correction. We don't know if they are killable. There's a good case for saying that they are, but at the end of the day, it would be hard to tell.

 

Yes, I'm going to keep grasping at the straw of Eothas being alive or splintered into the twin deities of Mercy and Vengeance. :p

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Just to back him, I don't think Luckmann is straw grabbing at all.  There is no in game evidence Eothas is actually dead.  No body was found, no remnants were left.  I have a hard time believing something created by 12 guys with some slight help from Magran could kill an entity with the power of thousands of souls behind it.

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Fair enough. Maybe they can't be killed... But can be defeated. Altered. That much we know.

 

Well at least we can assume that it stings like a motherf***er. laughing.gif

 

Just to back him, I don't think Luckmann is straw grabbing at all. There is no in game evidence Eothas is actually dead. No body was found, no remnants were left. I have a hard time believing something created by 12 guys with some slight help from Magran could kill an entity with the power of thousands of souls behind it.

I dunno. There seems to be an awful lot of power in a single soul if harnessed properly. Twelve of them essentially blowing themselves up..? I don't know. Maybe. And it might not be required to kill, per see, but shatter. If the gods are essentially amalgamations of thousands of souls fused together, and we know that souls can splinter to create new souls that grow, who's to say that twelve people splitting their own souls and destroying them wouldn't blast one divine soul to kingdom come, enough to turn it to rubble?

 

Either way, we know that Magran at some point at least participated in the punishment of Woedica, which left the latter significantly weakened. So maybe Eothas isn't dead, maybe he's not even splintered or shattered, maybe he's just.. diminished.

 

And on that topic, I must say that the conclusion of Durance's quest feels all kinds of weird, but.. I'll probably start a thread on that at some point, because.. it's s**t.

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How do we define death, though? What does it mean for a soul? Being erased completely? Being shattered into so many pieces no coherent memories of the previous lives exist? Even if Eothas was truly shattered, but parts of his oversoul remain, does Eothas still exist or are we dealing with new entities?

Edited by Rosveen
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Abydon was "killed" and remade so we have a precedent for this sort of thing. Add to that the fact that Eothas is the god of death and rebirth and I think we have a reason to be *very* surprised if Eothas doesn't return in an expansion/sequel.

"Art and song are creations but so are weapons and lies"

"Our worst enemies are inventions of the mind. Pleasure. Fear. When we see them for what they are, we become unstoppable."

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How do we define death, though? What does it mean for a soul? Being erased completely? Being shattered into so many pieces no coherent memories of the previous lives exist? Even if Eothas was truly shattered, but parts of his oversoul remain, does Eothas still exist or are we dealing with new entities?

Those are good questions that Eoran philosophers will struggle with for centuries. :lol:

 

That being said, we know that souls can be killed, as in incapable of being reborn again due to.. whatever. So I'd say that there's a definite difference between being shattered and being destroyed. I don't think you can destroy it completely, though, just sorta grind it to dust, I suppose. Shatter it beyond viability?

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How do we define death, though? What does it mean for a soul? Being erased completely? Being shattered into so many pieces no coherent memories of the previous lives exist? Even if Eothas was truly shattered, but parts of his oversoul remain, does Eothas still exist or are we dealing with new entities?

 Those are very good questions.  In my opinion the soul is the most important thing in the game.  Every living thing has a soul including those nasty black ooze, sporlings, forest lurkers.  The hung dwarf at Gilded Vale tells us that when souls are reborn they may lose part of themselves and or gain part of another soul.  Is this fact or opinion.  Do souls suffer entropy?  Are souls infinete or finite?  What is the orgin of souls?  Do we have any information about this?

 

Souls can be placed in Ardra and we have several examples of this.  The soul of kith retain memories but it also appears to me that these memories are not normally cumulative.    By that I mean you can have multiple personalities awaken.  

 

When the game ends you are no longer a Watcher or are you?  I look forward to where OE goes with this.  Will they be able to carry this forward and keep it fresh and with a sense of reality or will they back themselves into a corner asking questions that cannot be answered.  Only Wael may know,,,maybe.

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IIRC, the dead animancer in GV says that souls do suffer entropy - "Rymrgand's work", or words to that effect. And it fits in with what Rymrgand wants you to do at the end of the game.

Now, whether that is fact or theory, is not clear. But it seems probable.

 

Why the Engwithans would create a god that personifies the diminishing and permanent destruction of souls, is another question. Do souls have an expiry date? I.e. are they only capable of being reborn a certain amount of time, and not strong or whole enough to power a being after some cycles?

 

And where do souls come from? Are they created, or is there a finite number endlessly reborn and recombined, until they fade into nothing? If that is the case, when will the world be devoid of life?

 

It seems to be general consensus in the game, IIRC, that death and rebirth usually wipes a soul's memory - you do not remember your past lives. Watchers are an exemption to this, as is Thaos. Whether memories are really deleted or just buried and may be brought back, is not made completely clear, I think.

Edited by Varana

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They didn't create the kith, they were created by them. The Wheel existed before them. So can these constructs be called gods, do they have the right to rule over kith? Make up your own mind.

 

Which, if I may say so, is a nice and quite daring approach from an American company. Kudos for that, Obsidian.

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If Wael were real I think he would be enjoying this thread very much with all the questions being raised.

 

To further confuse things there are three gods who deal with death and each in different ways.  Rymrgand’s entropic one and Berath’s cold inevitability are two.  Eothas especially in the aspect of Gaun is the more positive, hopeful one and I think the one that most people of Eora favor even in Dyrwood.   Life is a cycle of death and rebirth.  Those who greet death with acceptance are visited by the avatar of Gaun who reaps one has been sowed during life and lights the way through death to rebirth.

 

Eothas is pivotal to the game but he does not exist within the game.  

 

Here is a quote from the PoE WIKI:

 

Influence over the sun and stars contributes to his overall air of grandeur and importance, putting Eothas at odds with the rest of the pantheon.

Why would the Engwithans create three gods of death each different?  Why would they create  one god that had grandeur and possibly greater powers than the other gods and put him at odds with the other gods?  The gods are split into factions.  Magran hates Eothas.  Why?

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If Wael were real I think he would be enjoying this thread very much with all the questions being raised.

 

To further confuse things there are three gods who deal with death and each in different ways.  Rymrgand’s entropic one and Berath’s cold inevitability are two.  Eothas especially in the aspect of Gaun is the more positive, hopeful one and I think the one that most people of Eora favor even in Dyrwood.   Life is a cycle of death and rebirth.  Those who greet death with acceptance are visited by the avatar of Gaun who reaps one has been sowed during life and lights the way through death to rebirth.

 

Eothas is pivotal to the game but he does not exist within the game.  

 

Here is a quote from the PoE WIKI:

 

Influence over the sun and stars contributes to his overall air of grandeur and importance, putting Eothas at odds with the rest of the pantheon.

Why would the Engwithans create three gods of death each different?  Why would they create  one god that had grandeur and possibly greater powers than the other gods and put him at odds with the other gods?  The gods are split into factions.  Magran hates Eothas.  Why?

 

I'm not sure why they hate each other. Maybe because it's in their nature? Eothas is a god of rebirth, redemption, etc etc. While Magran is a goddess of fire, purification, trials, war, etc etc.

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I'm not sure they do hate eachother. Magran's "hate" for Eothas is easily explained by the worshipper's interpretations of Magran's more recent actions. I hate the end of Durance's questline because it makes no sense. There is actually extremely little to support that Magran was allied with Woedica against Eothas, yet we are forced to not only make that claim in order to finish the questline, but to shatter Durance's faith to do so.

It feels forced and it makes me believe that it is the canon story, that it had to be told somehow, no matter how terribly written or out of place it came across, apparently. But even so, there's actually extremely little to support it, which makes it feel just dumber.
 

Why would the Engwithans create three gods of death each different?  Why would they create  one god that had grandeur and possibly greater powers than the other gods and put him at odds with the other gods?  The gods are split into factions.  Magran hates Eothas.  Why?

 

I think the whole "three gods of death"-thing is just faulty presentation by the developers. They're actually quite distinct, not simply "death". Rymrgand is the god of dying, the continual process of decay and entropy. Berath is the god of death-in-life, of cycles and doors, paths, and it is inevitable to pass through his gates when you die and is reborn. Eothas is practically the opposite of Rymrgand in this, being the god of light and redemption, and even growth on the fields (through the aspect of Gaun), and he only appears to be a god of death insofar that you need to die to be reborn, die and be redeemed in your next life, and so on.

Come to think of it, I can see Eothas as the one god that will actually muck with your soul when it's reborn, like a reformed criminal eothasian being plucked - upon death - from the paths his soul has been on before, and put upon another track. Or someone that would shave off the many things that weighs down a soul upon rebirth, of his faithful.

"It shall be as a new soul, have no fear, for in the darkness lies the light of redemption. Come to Him and He shall redeem you amongst the stars, the heaviest of burdens lighter than the feathers of the sky, to be reborn in the dawn of his morning sun."

Edited by Luckmann

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If Wael were real I think he would be enjoying this thread very much with all the questions being raised.

 

To further confuse things there are three gods who deal with death and each in different ways.  Rymrgand’s entropic one and Berath’s cold inevitability are two.  Eothas especially in the aspect of Gaun is the more positive, hopeful one and I think the one that most people of Eora favor even in Dyrwood.   Life is a cycle of death and rebirth.  Those who greet death with acceptance are visited by the avatar of Gaun who reaps one has been sowed during life and lights the way through death to rebirth.

 

Eothas is pivotal to the game but he does not exist within the game.  

 

Here is a quote from the PoE WIKI:

 

Influence over the sun and stars contributes to his overall air of grandeur and importance, putting Eothas at odds with the rest of the pantheon.

Why would the Engwithans create three gods of death each different?  Why would they create  one god that had grandeur and possibly greater powers than the other gods and put him at odds with the other gods?  The gods are split into factions.  Magran hates Eothas.  Why?

 

I'm not sure why they hate each other. Maybe because it's in their nature? Eothas is a god of rebirth, redemption, etc etc. While Magran is a goddess of fire, purification, trials, war, etc etc.

 

Because he is ally of Woedica, who was cast down by Magran. Eothas is not typical god of death. He is the one in the context of life. Look that he acts as psychopomp similiar to known Egyptian Anubis. If we look at porfolio of Eothas he should have had more enemies than Magran, his portfolio is opposed Rymrgrand and Skaen (but I think enemies have nothing to do with that fact). According to conversation with Durance, Magran might have been jealous (although it is Skaen domain) for Eothas light domain including fire as a source of light. I was thinking why moon isn't in domain of Eothas when stars are, I know it is in Ondra's power, but it all sounds like mentioned conflict with the rest of pantheon. I think other gods do not like him, because he has so high prestige (sun and stars, perhaps they were given other gods until Eothas came), more greater than Woedica in her best ages. Still thinking why sun and stars are so important for the rest of the gods as domain?

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I'm a bit offish about how the gods are presented in the end.  They make it utterly and completely clear that the gods were constructed by Thaos and Friends and are just machines essentially when I think a bit more ambiguity would have served better.  I feel it should have been unclear as to who was exactly right (maybe make the tart that led the heresy a lot less pure too or more unstable, she came across as an obnoxious Mary-Sue to me), or that what the gods were, what they had created was unclear even to the creators, that maybe they had just given form to universal concepts of Kith or the universe that had always been there but had no voice (would explain why they are not unified and some have overlapping roles etc, I mean I cannot come up with any other justification for why they bothered to create more than one to begin with as it is). 

 

This also ignores the fact that even in real world history there were religions in which the worshipped gods were not the creators or even immortal, for instance the Greek and Norse gods who often had to fight against Titans and Giants for control of the universe.  So if people are able to consider them gods why not these?  Why does Eder lose his faith in Eothas just because he learns of his origin?  Did he not believe in what his god stood for?  I never saw anything ingame that mentions what people believed were the origin of the gods, so not sure how knowing where his god came from would shake anything that fundamental, and the fact that the characters in the game come to the conclusion that Eothas was trying to stop Woedica and expose the Leaden Key sounds like something Eder would get behind, but then the way they come to this conclusion is questionable and brings us to the Magran Issue.  I agree with Luckmann that there was no evidence for Magran to have been allied with Woedica against Eothas, in fact when I first saw that come up in conversation with Durance I thought I had missed something at first by not getting all the gods' favour, yet even the one where you get to see Magran herself doesn't explain this.  It feels like there was a lot more intended for these questlines, an actual quest you had to do to find out why Durance was not viewable by his god that was cut or something because at the moment it just comes across as theorycrafting by the PC and Durance.

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If Wael were real I think he would be enjoying this thread very much with all the questions being raised.

 

To further confuse things there are three gods who deal with death and each in different ways.  Rymrgand’s entropic one and Berath’s cold inevitability are two.  Eothas especially in the aspect of Gaun is the more positive, hopeful one and I think the one that most people of Eora favor even in Dyrwood.   Life is a cycle of death and rebirth.  Those who greet death with acceptance are visited by the avatar of Gaun who reaps one has been sowed during life and lights the way through death to rebirth.

 

Eothas is pivotal to the game but he does not exist within the game.  

 

Here is a quote from the PoE WIKI:

 

Influence over the sun and stars contributes to his overall air of grandeur and importance, putting Eothas at odds with the rest of the pantheon.

Why would the Engwithans create three gods of death each different?  Why would they create  one god that had grandeur and possibly greater powers than the other gods and put him at odds with the other gods?  The gods are split into factions.  Magran hates Eothas.  Why?

 

I'm not sure why they hate each other. Maybe because it's in their nature? Eothas is a god of rebirth, redemption, etc etc. While Magran is a goddess of fire, purification, trials, war, etc etc.

 

Because he is ally of Woedica, who was cast down by Magran. Eothas is not typical god of death. He is the one in the context of life. Look that he acts as psychopomp similiar to known Egyptian Anubis. If we look at porfolio of Eothas he should have had more enemies than Magran, his portfolio is opposed Rymrgrand and Skaen (but I think enemies have nothing to do with that fact). According to conversation with Durance, Magran might have been jealous (although it is Skaen domain) for Eothas light domain including fire as a source of light. I was thinking why moon isn't in domain of Eothas when stars are, I know it is in Ondra's power, but it all sounds like mentioned conflict with the rest of pantheon. I think other gods do not like him, because he has so high prestige (sun and stars, perhaps they were given other gods until Eothas came), more greater than Woedica in her best ages. Still thinking why sun and stars are so important for the rest of the gods as domain?

 

Um, he was not ally of Woedica, in fact the game implies Magran got him destroyed because it was she who was allied with Woedica, who he was trying to stop. 

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If Wael were real I think he would be enjoying this thread very much with all the questions being raised.

 

To further confuse things there are three gods who deal with death and each in different ways.  Rymrgand’s entropic one and Berath’s cold inevitability are two.  Eothas especially in the aspect of Gaun is the more positive, hopeful one and I think the one that most people of Eora favor even in Dyrwood.   Life is a cycle of death and rebirth.  Those who greet death with acceptance are visited by the avatar of Gaun who reaps one has been sowed during life and lights the way through death to rebirth.

 

Eothas is pivotal to the game but he does not exist within the game.  

 

Here is a quote from the PoE WIKI:

 

Influence over the sun and stars contributes to his overall air of grandeur and importance, putting Eothas at odds with the rest of the pantheon.

Why would the Engwithans create three gods of death each different?  Why would they create  one god that had grandeur and possibly greater powers than the other gods and put him at odds with the other gods?  The gods are split into factions.  Magran hates Eothas.  Why?

 

I'm not sure why they hate each other. Maybe because it's in their nature? Eothas is a god of rebirth, redemption, etc etc. While Magran is a goddess of fire, purification, trials, war, etc etc.

 

Because he is ally of Woedica, who was cast down by Magran. Eothas is not typical god of death. He is the one in the context of life. Look that he acts as psychopomp similiar to known Egyptian Anubis. If we look at porfolio of Eothas he should have had more enemies than Magran, his portfolio is opposed Rymrgrand and Skaen (but I think enemies have nothing to do with that fact). According to conversation with Durance, Magran might have been jealous (although it is Skaen domain) for Eothas light domain including fire as a source of light. I was thinking why moon isn't in domain of Eothas when stars are, I know it is in Ondra's power, but it all sounds like mentioned conflict with the rest of pantheon. I think other gods do not like him, because he has so high prestige (sun and stars, perhaps they were given other gods until Eothas came), more greater than Woedica in her best ages. Still thinking why sun and stars are so important for the rest of the gods as domain?

 

Um, he was not ally of Woedica, in fact the game implies Magran got him destroyed because it was she who was allied with Woedica, who he was trying to stop. 

 

I know, I only said what collector's book mentioned or maybe it contains some wrong information (don't know). You can even imagine my surprise when I read about it, having learnt about Durance quest end.

Edited by White Phoenix
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It's my understanding that Eothas was allied with Woedica, or at least supported her on some level (redemption of Eothas vs. the punishment of Magran) and that's part of the reason Magran at least disliked Eothas, even prior to the supposed Eothas manifesting as Waidwen. Which just makes it weirder that Magran would ally with Woedica - the deity she once burned herself and the reason Woedica is covered in scars - to oppose Eothas the one time Eothas actually takes up arms and fights a straight-up war, something you'd see Magran respect, if anything.

 

The idea that Magran is allied with Woedica and that's why he killed Eothas is.. stupid. I'm sorry, I love the writing of Avellone, and before that point in Durance's storyline, I thought Durance was an amazing character, amazingly written and with a rather amazing questline, even if it was "just" dialogue. But that one part, that ending, is so out-of-place, so forced and so just plain weird that it completely put me off the character. I have no idea what they or he were thinking, it feels like Avellone had a stroke.

It would be equally conceivable, based on available evidence, that Magran opposed Waidwen because he believed Eothas to be in cahoots with Thaos and Woedica, rather than the other way around, and chose to sacrifice The Dozen not as a punishment or seeking to see them dead, but as a divine sacrifice that Magran would consider a test and an honour, the implicit "rejection" of Durance being for different reasons completely, maybe even divine shame, seeing as how she can probably perceive the shattered soul when she looks upon Durance, rather than his corporeal body (which is also, to be fair, fairly shattered).

But that's not even presented as an option. You're given two options. "Just a feeling", which doesn't mean anything and results in Durance ridiculing you, or a wild and inconsistent conjecture for which there is at best a flimsy rationale about Magran wanting to see Durance and all of The Dozen killed, somehow making you believe that Magran is allied with Woedica.

Like what?

 

I'm a bit offish about how the gods are presented in the end.  They make it utterly and completely clear that the gods were constructed by Thaos and Friends and are just machines essentially when I think a bit more ambiguity would have served better.  I feel it should have been unclear as to who was exactly right (maybe make the tart that led the heresy a lot less pure too or more unstable, she came across as an obnoxious Mary-Sue to me), or that what the gods were, what they had created was unclear even to the creators, that maybe they had just given form to universal concepts of Kith or the universe that had always been there but had no voice (would explain why they are not unified and some have overlapping roles etc, I mean I cannot come up with any other justification for why they bothered to create more than one to begin with as it is). 
 
This also ignores the fact that even in real world history there were religions in which the worshipped gods were not the creators or even immortal, for instance the Greek and Norse gods who often had to fight against Titans and Giants for control of the universe.  So if people are able to consider them gods why not these?  Why does Eder lose his faith in Eothas just because he learns of his origin?  Did he not believe in what his god stood for?  I never saw anything ingame that mentions what people believed were the origin of the gods, so not sure how knowing where his god came from would shake anything that fundamental, and the fact that the characters in the game come to the conclusion that Eothas was trying to stop Woedica and expose the Leaden Key sounds like something Eder would get behind, but then the way they come to this conclusion is questionable and brings us to the Magran Issue.  I agree with Luckmann that there was no evidence for Magran to have been allied with Woedica against Eothas, in fact when I first saw that come up in conversation with Durance I thought I had missed something at first by not getting all the gods' favour, yet even the one where you get to see Magran herself doesn't explain this.  It feels like there was a lot more intended for these questlines, an actual quest you had to do to find out why Durance was not viewable by his god that was cut or something because at the moment it just comes across as theorycrafting by the PC and Durance.

 
I agree very much that they should've been more ambiguous in presenting the gods, especially towards the end. Some things feels quite forced (like has been mentioned in another thread, it's practically hammered into us that Eothas is dead, even though in-character there's a lot of supposed ambiguity on the subject, or that Magran is now allied with Woedica and essentially betrayed Durance.. like.. what?) and furthermore... it really overshadows the main plot in the end.
 
You are practically asked to take a position on the nature of the gods and so on and so forth, and I feel like there's too much emphasis on the implications of the gods not being "real", rather than what has been the main plot up until that point - the Leaden Key, Thaos and the hollowborn crisis. Yes, all of this is intrinsically connected to the true nature of the gods, but it's presented as some huge moral implication without much of a build-up prior to that point that you have to take a stance on, be upset by, or support.
 
Precisely because of the enormous implications, it comes off as out of place, overshadowing the main plot as presented before that point ("that point" practically being when you reach the burial island and then jump into the pit), and forced. So not only do I feel that it should've been kept a lot more ambiguous, but presentation and pacing suffers a lot, and presenting it as a major plot point in a completely different campaign or storyline might've been more appropriate.

Edited by Luckmann
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I'm a bit offish about how the gods are presented in the end.  They make it utterly and completely clear that the gods were constructed by Thaos and Friends and are just machines essentially when I think a bit more ambiguity would have served better.  I feel it should have been unclear as to who was exactly right (maybe make the tart that led the heresy a lot less pure too or more unstable, she came across as an obnoxious Mary-Sue to me), or that what the gods were, what they had created was unclear even to the creators, that maybe they had just given form to universal concepts of Kith or the universe that had always been there but had no voice (would explain why they are not unified and some have overlapping roles etc, I mean I cannot come up with any other justification for why they bothered to create more than one to begin with as it is). 

 

This also ignores the fact that even in real world history there were religions in which the worshipped gods were not the creators or even immortal, for instance the Greek and Norse gods who often had to fight against Titans and Giants for control of the universe.  So if people are able to consider them gods why not these?  Why does Eder lose his faith in Eothas just because he learns of his origin?  Did he not believe in what his god stood for?  I never saw anything ingame that mentions what people believed were the origin of the gods, so not sure how knowing where his god came from would shake anything that fundamental, and the fact that the characters in the game come to the conclusion that Eothas was trying to stop Woedica and expose the Leaden Key sounds like something Eder would get behind, but then the way they come to this conclusion is questionable and brings us to the Magran Issue.  I agree with Luckmann that there was no evidence for Magran to have been allied with Woedica against Eothas, in fact when I first saw that come up in conversation with Durance I thought I had missed something at first by not getting all the gods' favour, yet even the one where you get to see Magran herself doesn't explain this.  It feels like there was a lot more intended for these questlines, an actual quest you had to do to find out why Durance was not viewable by his god that was cut or something because at the moment it just comes across as theorycrafting by the PC and Durance.

Well, Eder does not lose his faith in Eothas because of his origin, but because of Waidwen's actions. In my ending he started believing again (happy ending) in spite of knowing about gods origin. Staff with Woedica and Magran is pretty unclear, I feel it's some element of greater puzzle, yet to come known in sequel(s). I think people of Eora have no idea about gods origin, most believe they are their creators or something similar. Discovering the truth of their nature could result in chaos or even civil war, espiecially in countries rooted heavily in faith (Aedyr, Readceras). It means discrediting of authorities (Woedica, Eothas) in those countries. If gods are made from us (kith), they are like us, they only exist in diffrent form of life like human, bird, cat, fish etc. But essentially they are modded version ( ;)) of our (kith) soul.

Edited by White Phoenix
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I'm a bit offish about how the gods are presented in the end.  They make it utterly and completely clear that the gods were constructed by Thaos and Friends and are just machines essentially when I think a bit more ambiguity would have served better.  I feel it should have been unclear as to who was exactly right (maybe make the tart that led the heresy a lot less pure too or more unstable, she came across as an obnoxious Mary-Sue to me), or that what the gods were, what they had created was unclear even to the creators, that maybe they had just given form to universal concepts of Kith or the universe that had always been there but had no voice (would explain why they are not unified and some have overlapping roles etc, I mean I cannot come up with any other justification for why they bothered to create more than one to begin with as it is). 

 

This also ignores the fact that even in real world history there were religions in which the worshipped gods were not the creators or even immortal, for instance the Greek and Norse gods who often had to fight against Titans and Giants for control of the universe.  So if people are able to consider them gods why not these?  Why does Eder lose his faith in Eothas just because he learns of his origin?  Did he not believe in what his god stood for?  I never saw anything ingame that mentions what people believed were the origin of the gods, so not sure how knowing where his god came from would shake anything that fundamental, and the fact that the characters in the game come to the conclusion that Eothas was trying to stop Woedica and expose the Leaden Key sounds like something Eder would get behind, but then the way they come to this conclusion is questionable and brings us to the Magran Issue.  I agree with Luckmann that there was no evidence for Magran to have been allied with Woedica against Eothas, in fact when I first saw that come up in conversation with Durance I thought I had missed something at first by not getting all the gods' favour, yet even the one where you get to see Magran herself doesn't explain this.  It feels like there was a lot more intended for these questlines, an actual quest you had to do to find out why Durance was not viewable by his god that was cut or something because at the moment it just comes across as theorycrafting by the PC and Durance.

Well, Eder does not lose his faith in Eothas because of his origin, but because of Waidwen's actions. In my ending he started believing again (happy ending) in spite of knowing about gods origin. Staff with Woedica and Magran is pretty unclear, I feel it's some element of greater puzzle, yet to come known in sequel(s). I think people of Eora have no idea about gods origin, most believe they are their creators or something similar. Discovering the truth of their nature could result in chaos or even civil war, espiecially in countries rooted heavily in faith (Aedyr, Readceras). It means discrediting of authorities (Woedica, Eothas) in those countries. If gods are made from us (kith), they are like us, they only exist in diffrent form of life like human, bird, cat, fish etc. But essentially they are modded version ( ;)) of our (kith) soul.

 

 

That being said, there's about 6-10 people that actually know the truth. At best there's the foundation for a new atheist cult, hardly the stuff of anarchy and civil wars. At the same time, the belief in the gods are fundamental to most people's lives, on one level or another, to the point where there's not even any need for missionaries (at least not in general, or as a central authority, like the one that grew into the Inquisition of Engwith).

 

I hope that in sequels and so on, unless it's a direct continuation of this specific storyline, that they bury these things in ambiguity and doesn't make it an ongoing theme with edgy atheists in every corner and casual options of opposing religion from an in-character perspective.

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Could the whole thing have been an accident? The Engwithans experimenting with some advanced technology in regard to souls created a machine that could collect souls.  The woman in Heritage Hill mentions this possibility in regard to the machine there.  Theos was brilliant enough to see the possibilities nd carry the experiment forward thus creating the gods.  By binding the essence of different personalities together you could come up with some interesting constructs that could even be in conflict with themselves.

 

I wonder how much we can really believe, how much is fact and how much is conjecture.

 

Ps: As  for Eder there are different endings for him depending on how your conversations with him go.

 

These gods do remind me of the Greek and Norse gods that were very much to me constructs of humans and reflected the good and bad in humans, the best and worse.

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I'm a bit offish about how the gods are presented in the end.  They make it utterly and completely clear that the gods were constructed by Thaos and Friends and are just machines essentially when I think a bit more ambiguity would have served better.  I feel it should have been unclear as to who was exactly right (maybe make the tart that led the heresy a lot less pure too or more unstable, she came across as an obnoxious Mary-Sue to me), or that what the gods were, what they had created was unclear even to the creators, that maybe they had just given form to universal concepts of Kith or the universe that had always been there but had no voice (would explain why they are not unified and some have overlapping roles etc, I mean I cannot come up with any other justification for why they bothered to create more than one to begin with as it is). 

 

This also ignores the fact that even in real world history there were religions in which the worshipped gods were not the creators or even immortal, for instance the Greek and Norse gods who often had to fight against Titans and Giants for control of the universe.  So if people are able to consider them gods why not these?  Why does Eder lose his faith in Eothas just because he learns of his origin?  Did he not believe in what his god stood for?  I never saw anything ingame that mentions what people believed were the origin of the gods, so not sure how knowing where his god came from would shake anything that fundamental, and the fact that the characters in the game come to the conclusion that Eothas was trying to stop Woedica and expose the Leaden Key sounds like something Eder would get behind, but then the way they come to this conclusion is questionable and brings us to the Magran Issue.  I agree with Luckmann that there was no evidence for Magran to have been allied with Woedica against Eothas, in fact when I first saw that come up in conversation with Durance I thought I had missed something at first by not getting all the gods' favour, yet even the one where you get to see Magran herself doesn't explain this.  It feels like there was a lot more intended for these questlines, an actual quest you had to do to find out why Durance was not viewable by his god that was cut or something because at the moment it just comes across as theorycrafting by the PC and Durance.

Well, Eder does not lose his faith in Eothas because of his origin, but because of Waidwen's actions. In my ending he started believing again (happy ending) in spite of knowing about gods origin. Staff with Woedica and Magran is pretty unclear, I feel it's some element of greater puzzle, yet to come known in sequel(s). I think people of Eora have no idea about gods origin, most believe they are their creators or something similar. Discovering the truth of their nature could result in chaos or even civil war, espiecially in countries rooted heavily in faith (Aedyr, Readceras). It means discrediting of authorities (Woedica, Eothas) in those countries. If gods are made from us (kith), they are like us, they only exist in diffrent form of life like human, bird, cat, fish etc. But essentially they are modded version ( ;)) of our (kith) soul.

 

 

That being said, there's about 6-10 people that actually know the truth. At best there's the foundation for a new atheist cult, hardly the stuff of anarchy and civil wars. At the same time, the belief in the gods are fundamental to most people's lives, on one level or another, to the point where there's not even any need for missionaries (at least not in general, or as a central authority, like the one that grew into the Inquisition of Engwith).

 

I hope that in sequels and so on, unless it's a direct continuation of this specific storyline, that they bury these things in ambiguity and doesn't make it an ongoing theme with edgy atheists in every corner and casual options of opposing religion from an in-character perspective.

 

I think there will be direct sequel with the same protagonist. Why?

 

- they are the Watcher still, their soul is awakend forever (until they find pernament cure like Spirit Eater in MoTB) but calm now.

- they know the truth about gods origin

- the Watcher abilities are probably the only way to learn what really happened to Eothas and Saint's War staff  and many other things

- they ended the Hollowborn curse in Dyrwood (nobody knows about it expect for companions, ordinary people credit it to the gods we chose in ending)

- Obsidian wants to show us Eastern Reach first - there are Vailian Republics and Readceras left for greater story and White March (more for expansion than sequel). Eir Glanfath was not so much in the game too.

Besides, Josh Sawyer mentioned he wanted to make POE like BG saga, the same character, two stories.

 

I have mixed feelings about the same protagonist because of poorly Watcher perfomance. But I think our hero knows too much and Woedica really didn't let them to walk Eora peacefuly with such knowlegde and all things they done to her (kill Thaos, end Hollowborn crisis).

Edited by White Phoenix
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