More nonlethal options

[perilisk]

As much as I enjoy playing the stealthy sort of pacifist, it would be great if the expansions or sequels introduced more nonlethal options, including some aggressive ones.

You get no combat XP for fighting kith, and the game's mechanics are set up so that people are normally taken out of combat by losing endurance, not health. There's no reason you can't loot a KO'd body as easily as a dead one.

All of that suggests it would be very rewarding (from a C&C perspective) to set up a Gothic-style system where kith-on-kith combat often boils down to beating people up and taking their stuff, where killing a fallen opponent is usually a deliberate choice with moral weight.

It also means that it's reasonable to have alternate means of beating enemies other than dropping endurance to 0; breaking morale could be more than just a debuff system -- unless you really had your heart set on their loot or truly wanted them eliminated, terrifying an enemy into fleeing the map is essentially as much a win as killing them all.

Reputation could come into play here too. If you have a reputation for being honorable and benevolent, enemies might be more likely to lay down arms and surrender once it's clear the fight is going badly, the leader is killed, etc. On the other hand, people might just try to avoiding getting into combat with a Bleak Walker in the first place.

[Althernai]

I agree. There's a confrontation with a bunch of drunks near the very beginning and it was kind of surprising that if you fail to calm them down, the only option is to kill them.

[Frond]

Agreed. That sounds very cool and has lots of RP potential.

[EdwinP]

I agree. There's a confrontation with a bunch of drunks near the very beginning and it was kind of surprising that if you fail to calm them down, the only option is to kill them.

 

It would be interesting if the PC could use non-lethal force (fists) or their resolve attribute (15+) to dissuade the drunks.

 

Thus 4 possible outcomes:

 

1. Resolve - Non-Violent Resolution.

2. Deadly Combat (weapons or magic) - PCs slay the drunks and suffer a penalty to their reputation in the Vale, perhaps they are asked to pay a fine. Conversations reflect this. Perhaps is triggers an encounter where they are warned of a space on the hanging tree.

3. Non-Deadly Combat (Fists) - the PC wins, and gains local reputation. Conversations reflect this.

4. Non-Deadly Combat (Fists) - the PC loses, and loses local reputation. Conversations reflect this. "You're the adventurer who couldn't defeat a drunk farmer"

[Zwiebelchen]

It would be cool to have a modal that, when hitting an enemy under 20% endurance, doesn't kill enemies, but instead makes them drop unconscious.

It should add a penalty based on weapon choice:

 

Swords, Axes - minus 15 deflection (you are severely putting yourself at risk by trying to hit your foe with the backside or handle of your blade)

Daggers - minus 25 deflection, minus 20 accuracy (daggers are just not a good weapon to incapacitate someone; hitting someone with the handle of your weapon is pretty much your only choice)

Clubs, Flails - Halved damage, minus 10 accuracy (you must take special care not to crush someone's skull by putting less strength in your hits)

Quarterstaves, Helberds, Pikes - minus 5 deflection and accuracy (Pole weapons are perfect for decapacitating enemies)

Fists - no penalty (obviously, fists should be the least lethal of all attacks)

Ranged weapons - minus 20 accuracy, 20% slower attacks (you try to aim for the limbs of your opponent)

 

 

Unconscious enemies will simply turn neutral after the fight, knocked prone. If you leave the place without dealing with them, they will simply disappear after a while. You can also "talk" to unconscious enemies to send them to prison or make them run away.

Edited May 13, 2015 by Zwiebelchen

[Tsideshow]

I agree.
One of my favourite features about PS:T was the fact that you could avoid most of the fights, just with dialogue.
This game doesn't reward players with XP for combat, but on the other hand it doesn't provide us players a fitting alternative.
I would very much like to play a pacifist, but I don't want to play a coward or a stealthy character, I want to play someone who can convince others that it would be foolish to fight - very much like the one scenerio that the developers did put inside the game, where you're allowed to avoid combat if you have a reputation of being cruel.

[dekergus]

It also means that it's reasonable to have alternate means of beating enemies other than dropping endurance to 0; breaking morale could be more than just a debuff system -- unless you really had your heart set on their loot or truly wanted them eliminated, terrifying an enemy into fleeing the map is essentially as much a win as killing them all.

 

 

 

yes , on the same kind of ideas, foes with some intelligence should try to run away when obviously about to die, and try to go for help when possible... could be fun in humanoid populated dungeons.

[Palmtuna]

I would really love to see something like this. There have been several times where I focus all of my attacks on the 'leader', hoping that killing them will cause the lesser enemies to flee/surrender.

This has yet to work and is a bit of a letdown.

[JONNIN]

Reputation could come into play here too. If you have a reputation for being honorable and benevolent, enemies might be more likely to lay down arms and surrender once it's clear the fight is going badly, the leader is killed, etc. On the other hand, people might just try to avoiding getting into combat with a Bleak Walker in the first place.

 

I agree with most of what you said but IMHO a wealthy (castle owning hero with 10k+ copper worth of gear on his team..?)  do-gooder would be a *target* for every thug in the entire region.   If you are known to kill everyone you meet, they would avoid you or come at you with a much, much stronger/larger group.

 

For that matter, why surrender... you just gonna knock them out and let them go, fight on and see what happens... 

 

The reverse is true too.   Crooks that assault you should in general, if they win the fight, leave you naked and bleeding but alive. 

[Deified Data]

I agree. There's a confrontation with a bunch of drunks near the very beginning and it was kind of surprising that if you fail to calm them down, the only option is to kill them.

Agreed, this was pretty disconcerting. I realize that the scenario fell through due to my choices, even if they appeared diplomatic to me, but I felt bad mowing through these relatively harmless drunks even though they started it - it's not like Aloth didn't provoke them. I really like the idea of defeated kith being knocked out unless they've been slain with magic or certain weapons that would all but ensure death.

[Lord_Mord]

I miss options in general. In BG I could do a lot more roleplaying outside of the dialogues.

 

Example (Not very important spoiler):

 

To get to the whore in the salty mast, you have to pay 1000. I tried to enchant the guards, trick the guards, nothing. You can either pay, or kill everyone. In BG there where a lot of situations where you could use different tactics to reach your goal. For example getting the mantle from the fat guy in Beregost. You could kill him, enchant him, steal it from him or talk with him. Or guards in BG: You could always enchant them or try to sneak around them. (The guard in the copper coronet for example) In general it was always a good idea in BG, to try some spells. In PoE spells are useless out of combat. Why did I become a mage, if I can do nothing but killing people?

 

Then inside the dialogue of PoE you often reach an unneccessary dead end. (Spoiler). You try to get that armour for that guy (You know who I mean?). The other guy refuses and if you choose the wrong options you end up in the situation, that you don't have the armour, a lot of guys are angry at you and you can't even talk to the guy that has the armour. He suddenly treats you as his best friend and you can't even threaten him (The only option left is killing him without warning, I think that's a little bit extreme and I didn't try and I fear it won't even lead to the angry guys liking you again.). That feels somehow unsatisfying.

[Zwiebelchen]

I miss options in general. In BG I could do a lot more roleplaying outside of the dialogues.

 

Example (Not very important spoiler):

 

To get to the whore in the salty mast, you have to pay 1000. I tried to enchant the guards, trick the guards, nothing. You can either pay, or kill everyone. In BG there where a lot of situations where you could use different tactics to reach your goal. For example getting the mantle from the fat guy in Beregost. You could kill him, enchant him, steal it from him or talk with him. Or guards in BG: You could always enchant them or try to sneak around them. (The guard in the copper coronet for example) In general it was always a good idea in BG, to try some spells. In PoE spells are useless out of combat. Why did I become a mage, if I can do nothing but killing people?

 

Then inside the dialogue of PoE you often reach an unneccessary dead end. (Spoiler). You try to get that armour for that guy (You know who I mean?). The other guy refuses and if you choose the wrong options you end up in the situation, that you don't have the armour, a lot of guys are angry at you and you can't even talk to the guy that has the armour. He suddenly treats you as his best friend and you can't even threaten him (The only option left is killing him without warning, I think that's a little bit extreme and I didn't try and I fear it won't even lead to the angry guys liking you again.). That feels somehow unsatisfying.

 

Yeah some of the quests are not properly fleshed out in that regard. Sometimes the NPCs are missing reactions on the quest state completely, for example many of the NPCs in the sanitarium. The whole place went to hell and still the dialogue for the NPCs outside the critical area didn't change?

And yeah, the armor quest was severely lacking in that regard aswell.

 

But we know the underlying issue here: lack of time and production resources. I'm perfectly sure that this will be remedied in expansion and sequel content.

[luzarius]

modding, modding, modding, modding, modding, modding, modding, modding, modding

[Lord_Mord]

Yes. Modding.

[Lord_Mord]

Another thing: Why is there no confusion spell, that doesn't make enemies attack each other? I often try to avoid fights by charming the enemies (Especially animals, I see no point in slaughtering the wildlife of a whole forest). But in PoE that leads to a massacre.

[Palmtuna]

Having a confusion spell would be very interesting. Or even having something along the lines of a Jedi's force suggestion would be very cool if implemented right.

If you were to fail the mind suggestion it could lead to combat and you would gain reputation as someone who uses the spell, making people more suspicious of you.

[TheisEjsing]

Just knocking people out sure would be cool, but what if instead of that. Why not just destroy them all?