Is Weapon and Shield Style talent unbalanced?

[zenzei]

Guys, I want to check what you think because maybe it is just me.

I am soloing the game with wizard so I am at point where every skill/talent decision matters and I really don't want to use shield because it doesn't go well even with battle-mage theme, like mage with a shield makes no sense to me. But when I was comparing talents Weapon and Shield Style seemed ridicoulusly overpowered compared to rest. For a single point, handling a shield we get massive deflection and reflex improvement, which is around 40 total defense stats (all deflection from shield goes also to reflex)!

I have a really hard decision right now because it feels too good to pass up (especially for soloing) but at the same time is bad from rp perspective for caster characters.

I am using The White Spire 2h estoc at the moment, which goes extremely well with battle mage theme and has also bonus Blizzard casts. Unfortunatley it gets double-nerfed in 1.05 patch (Blizzard damage down, spell holding casts down to 2, instead of 3 in this case).

 

Please, tell me is there anything worth not having a shield on my mage...

Edited May 8, 2015 by zenzei

[azmodael]

Well you play solo a game for a party of 6. Therefore you need tankiness. Therefore shield is best for you. Drop down the difficulty if you havn't already if you want the sub-optimal choice.

[knownastherat]

First of all, no every single talent does not matter. I know because I've been there. Played Wiz without Veil and min Per/Res solo PotD. Secondly, if you find use of shield necessary you are doing something wrong. Lastly, battle mage is not concept working well in this game due to the way encounters are designed. Its almost always more efficient to cast something than swing.

[Luckmann]

Actually, the Weapon and Shield style is pretty balanced in relation to Two-Weapon Style and Two-Handed Style. Weapon and Shield and Two-Weapon Style is practically mandatory for each of those styles, and the Two-Handed Style gets a flat, (boring) but hefty +15% damage, which is considerable.

It is the One-Weapon Style that sucks dog buns... unless you're actually a tank and combine it with the Weapon and Shield Style as a tank, because for whatever nonsensical reason, they stack.

[Zwiebelchen]

First of all, no every single talent does not matter. I know because I've been there. Played Wiz without Veil and min Per/Res solo PotD. Secondly, if you find use of shield necessary you are doing something wrong. Lastly, battle mage is not concept working well in this game due to the way encounters are designed. Its almost always more efficient to cast something than swing.

 

So you're saying battle mage != tank mage? I'd disagree. The whole point of going melee mage is that you can tank AND deal damage at the same time.

 

@TO: You can build a working battle mage without a shield. But I really wonder why.you don't want to take 1H+shield aswell? After all, you have a default 2 weapon sets. You can then freely switch weapons depending on what you're fighting. Chances are you will rely on 1H+shield much in early game, then, after reaching level 7 and getting access to the more powerful defense spells, you'll mostly use your two-handed weapons.

 

Also, I think you are making a mistake in your concept: battle mages are not primarily about deflection (stacking deflection is still important, though), but about DR. Ghost shield, stone skin, bullwark against elements: all those spells buff your DR scores ad absurdum. Combined with a full plate or brigandine, you can pile up physical DR scores into the 30's (40's against elements).

 

 

I wouldn't invest into Sword-and-Shield style for a battle mage either, simply because you won't use shields much in mid/late-game. Rather, invest into talents that work regardless of weapon choice: cautious attack, the passive +5 deflection, improved arcane veil (with the 1.05 change to veil, taking the improved veil makes you pretty much immune to deflection attacks), etc., then, when you have everything you need, invest into the +10 against status effect talents. Your insane elemental DR will take care of almost all spells; you only worry about status effects (remember that there's also a spell mirror ability. Use it and watch enemy spellcasters kill themselves!).

 

Battle mages don't have a lot of useful talents to choose from, so you'll have some spare points at the end of the game.

Remember that your weapon accuracy does not affect your spell accuracy. So weapon focus is only useful if you actually attack, instead of using spells. Honorable mention: the talent that reduces recovery when switching spellbooks. This is worth an investment! Build two different grimoires, one more on the defensive side, the other more on the damage/utility side, then switch after buffing up. Low duration spells should be on both grimoires, but stuff like spell mirror is perfect for the situational grimoire!

Battles mages are pretty micro intense. I actually made 3 different grimoires for my battle mage; switching them mid-combat is nice to adapt to battle dynamics.

 

I actually took the health recovery talent in utility at end game in my battlemage playthrough. Simply because there was nothing else that was interesting to choose and I found health to be the most problematic resource for this playstyle (good thing it was buffed in 1.05).

 

 

 

It is the One-Weapon Style that sucks dog buns... unless you're actually a tank and combine it with the Weapon and Shield Style as a tank, because for whatever nonsensical reason, they stack.

 

Wait, what? They do? I'd say this is a bug, though, so I wouldn't specc into it because it might get fixed later on.

Edited May 8, 2015 by Zwiebelchen

[MoxyWoo]

Guys, I want to check what you think because maybe it is just me.

I am soloing the game with wizard so I am at point where every skill/talent decision matters and I really don't want to use shield because it doesn't go well even with battle-mage theme, like mage with a shield makes no sense to me. But when I was comparing talents Weapon and Shield Style seemed ridicoulusly overpowered compared to rest. For a single point, handling a shield we get massive deflection and reflex improvement, which is around 40 total defense stats (all deflection from shield goes also to reflex)!

 

I have a really hard decision right now because it feels too good to pass up (especially for soloing) but at the same time is bad from rp perspective for caster characters.

 

I am using The White Spire 2h estoc at the moment, which goes extremely well with battle mage theme and has also bonus Blizzard casts. Unfortunatley it gets double-nerfed in 1.05 patch (Blizzard damage down, spell holding casts down to 2, instead of 3 in this case).

 

Please, tell me is there anything worth not having a shield on my mage...

 

Weapon/shield is great for sure, been toying with the idea that using that style along with weapon focus: peasant gives you a good defense/offense mode.

 

Basically, you use the hatchet/shield to play tank, and the rare times fights drag out, you use the Parasitic Staff spell which does huge chunky damage and swings super fast.

 

For ranged you have the usual arcane assault x2, your spells and similar.

 

Realistically though, unless playing on PotD, the above combo is pretty unnecessary and summoned weapons only shine for the longer fights.

[zenzei]

Thank you guys for a lot of interesting input. Like I said the only reason I don't want to go shield are rp reasons. It just doesn't feel right, actually feels very silly.

 

I am already lvl 8 (normal difficulty) heading towards Dyrford Village. I got to this point mainly thanks to figurines which did majority of the tanking (that bridge fight for Sanguine Armor). Hovever I started being afraid that coming closer to end of the game I would need more survivability, hence shield.

Edited May 8, 2015 by zenzei

[knownastherat]

Coming to end game you get higher level spells and also your level 1 and 2 spells become per encounter. In other words the game will only get easier not harder.

 

 

First of all, no every single talent does not matter. I know because I've been there. Played Wiz without Veil and min Per/Res solo PotD. Secondly, if you find use of shield necessary you are doing something wrong. Lastly, battle mage is not concept working well in this game due to the way encounters are designed. Its almost always more efficient to cast something than swing.

 

So you're saying battle mage != tank mage? I'd disagree. The whole point of going melee mage is that you can tank AND deal damage at the same time.

 

 

 

Am I? I will repeat it since it seems its not clear to you.

 

Every single talent does not matter

Wiz can be played without Veil and low deflection, relying on DR and health leech. I had 34k damage done and 17k damage taken before I quit on level 9 as it was getting too easy.

IF "battle mage" - mage swinging something in melee is not as efficient as casting mage no swinging anything, THEN battle mage concept is not working well.

Edited May 8, 2015 by knownastherat

[Zwiebelchen]

Thank you guys for a lot of interesting input. Like I said the only reason I don't want to go shield are rp reasons. It just doesn't feel right, actually feels very silly.

 

I am already lvl 8 (normal difficulty) heading towards Dyrford Village. I got to this point mainly thanks to figurines which did majority of the tanking (that bridge fight for Sanguine Armor). Hovever I started being afraid that coming closer to end of the game I would need more survivability, hence shield.

 

It's actually the opposite. The closer you come to the end of the game, the less you actually need the extra deflection. Deflection gain through leveling ultimately trumphs deflection through talents.

 

Every single talent does not matter

Wiz can be played without Veil and low deflection, relying on DR and health leech. I had 34k damage done and 17k damage taken before I quit on level 9 as it was getting too easy.

IF "battle mage" - mage swinging something in melee is not as efficient as casting mage no swinging anything, THEN battle mage concept is not working well.

 

I misunderstood you then. And I agree. You probably won't swing your weapons much as a battle mage. Because then you could just take a fighter instead.

I think he was more about using the greatsword for style, not damage. Which works fine.

Edited May 8, 2015 by Zwiebelchen

[mazeltov]

But when I was comparing talents Weapon and Shield Style seemed ridicoulusly overpowered compared to rest.

 

It is, irrespective of any solo play anecdotes. The amount of Reflex the Talent gives is criminal.

 

Into the balance can it goes.

[Slapstick87]

So there's a talent good enough to warrant real consideration of taking it? GOOD. Please don't nerf everything to the point of uselessness.

[Luckmann]

 

First of all, no every single talent does not matter. I know because I've been there. Played Wiz without Veil and min Per/Res solo PotD. Secondly, if you find use of shield necessary you are doing something wrong. Lastly, battle mage is not concept working well in this game due to the way encounters are designed. Its almost always more efficient to cast something than swing.

 

So you're saying battle mage != tank mage? I'd disagree. The whole point of going melee mage is that you can tank AND deal damage at the same time.

 

@TO: You can build a working battle mage without a shield. But I really wonder why.you don't want to take 1H+shield aswell? After all, you have a default 2 weapon sets. You can then freely switch weapons depending on what you're fighting. Chances are you will rely on 1H+shield much in early game, then, after reaching level 7 and getting access to the more powerful defense spells, you'll mostly use your two-handed weapons.

 

Also, I think you are making a mistake in your concept: battle mages are not primarily about deflection (stacking deflection is still important, though), but about DR. Ghost shield, stone skin, bullwark against elements: all those spells buff your DR scores ad absurdum. Combined with a full plate or brigandine, you can pile up physical DR scores into the 30's (40's against elements).

 

 

I wouldn't invest into Sword-and-Shield style for a battle mage either, simply because you won't use shields much in mid/late-game. Rather, invest into talents that work regardless of weapon choice: cautious attack, the passive +5 deflection, improved arcane veil (with the 1.05 change to veil, taking the improved veil makes you pretty much immune to deflection attacks), etc., then, when you have everything you need, invest into the +10 against status effect talents. Your insane elemental DR will take care of almost all spells; you only worry about status effects (remember that there's also a spell mirror ability. Use it and watch enemy spellcasters kill themselves!).

 

Battle mages don't have a lot of useful talents to choose from, so you'll have some spare points at the end of the game.

Remember that your weapon accuracy does not affect your spell accuracy. So weapon focus is only useful if you actually attack, instead of using spells. Honorable mention: the talent that reduces recovery when switching spellbooks. This is worth an investment! Build two different grimoires, one more on the defensive side, the other more on the damage/utility side, then switch after buffing up. Low duration spells should be on both grimoires, but stuff like spell mirror is perfect for the situational grimoire!

Battles mages are pretty micro intense. I actually made 3 different grimoires for my battle mage; switching them mid-combat is nice to adapt to battle dynamics.

 

I actually took the health recovery talent in utility at end game in my battlemage playthrough. Simply because there was nothing else that was interesting to choose and I found health to be the most problematic resource for this playstyle (good thing it was buffed in 1.05).

 

 

 

It is the One-Weapon Style that sucks dog buns... unless you're actually a tank and combine it with the Weapon and Shield Style as a tank, because for whatever nonsensical reason, they stack.

 

Wait, what? They do? I'd say this is a bug, though, so I wouldn't specc into it because it might get fixed later on.

 

I would say that it's a bug too, but it's been present since beta, and it's a small thing to fix, so unless it was fixed in 1.05, I don't think it'll ever be fixed.

[Zwiebelchen]

Unfortunately, it looks like the similar bug that using a 1H weapon as an offhand and having nothing in the main weapon slot is also not fixed for 1.05 either. Fist + OH weapon applies the 1-handed accuracy bonus to both main-hand fist and off-hand weapon. Also, 1-handed weapon specialization applies regardless, while actually being dual-wield. It only matters much for monk though, because most other characters won't care for fist attacks.

Edited May 8, 2015 by Zwiebelchen

[zenzei]

So there's a talent good enough to warrant real consideration of taking it? GOOD. Please don't nerf everything to the point of uselessness.

 

I was never an advocate of nerfing things. It just seem bad that shield style is so much encouraged by mechanics. Instead of nerfing it I would rather provide more defensive options alternative to shield. In PoE most weapons have very similar and, frankly, quite boring, attributes. I feel that in good old BG2:ToB weapons were more exciting with great defensive enchantments (magic resist, armor class bonus etc.). This way there was a lot of 2-handed powerful alternatives to weapon and shield playstyle, which didn't hurt survivability but sometimes surpassed shields in certain situations (Carsomyr).

[Luckmann]

Unfortunately, it looks like the similar bug that using a 1H weapon as an offhand and having nothing in the main weapon slot is also not fixed for 1.05 either. Fist + OH weapon applies the 1-handed accuracy bonus to both main-hand fist and off-hand weapon. Also, 1-handed weapon specialization applies regardless, while actually being dual-wield. It only matters much for monk though, because most other characters won't care for fist attacks.

 

I never realized this. That's hilariously broken and abusable for monks. Equip an off-hand weapon and enjoy dual-wielding with full duelist bonuses.

 

If I understood you right.

[MadDemiurg]

It's possible to go without W&S style just fine, pick caster/utility talents instead. W&S probably is the best style talent though, and reflex bonus it gives is too high I think. Other styles are simply not worth it usually (well, dw is decent, but not for wiz). 2h style 15% damage applies to the base damage only, so it's pretty bad. However, I think as of 1.05 wiz conjured weapons have massive base damage, so maybe it would work a bit better with them. It's still in 2.5 (regular 2h) - 3.75 (conjured 2h) damage range, so not too great.

 

Not sure how shield is bad from rp perspective. I can see how a caster might want to have 1 hand free (so 1h style), but from 2h, dw and w&s w&s is the most practical if you fry enemies with spells anyway. Pity you can't dual wield shields (for double bonus).

Edited May 8, 2015 by MadDemiurg

[Slapstick87]

 

So there's a talent good enough to warrant real consideration of taking it? GOOD. Please don't nerf everything to the point of uselessness.

 

I was never an advocate of nerfing things. It just seem bad that shield style is so much encouraged by mechanics. Instead of nerfing it I would rather provide more defensive options alternative to shield. In PoE most weapons have very similar and, frankly, quite boring, attributes. I feel that in good old BG2:ToB weapons were more exciting with great defensive enchantments (magic resist, armor class bonus etc.). This way there was a lot of 2-handed powerful alternatives to weapon and shield playstyle, which didn't hurt survivability but sometimes surpassed shields in certain situations (Carsomyr).

 

 

Well I'll give you that one. There were at times more special attributes, abilities, etc. on items "back in the days" (NWN with a bunch of mods was a many-year love affair for me) . Balanced? Well that would be a stretch. Fun? Oh yes! I'll take fun over balance (to a degree) any time of the week.

[KDubya]

For defensive builds the weapon and shield style is the better choice. It comes at the cost of not taking dual wield with it's inherent double approximate +33% attack speed and an additional +20% attack speed, or using two handed style which gets you much higher base damage, possibly reach or increased DR penetration and a 15% damage increase. Single weapon gets an inherent +12 accuracy and the graze>hit can further increase your accuracy.

 

It looks like a balanced choice to me as the style choices are all good.

 

I think the single weapon style is intended to work with the shield style. At the cost of another talent and the loss of the +12 accuracy, you can use the graze>hit, the defense bonus and a shield.

 

 

 

 

Edit - fixed the mistaken dual wield statement, thanks peddoelm for catching that.

Edited May 8, 2015 by KDubya

[peddroelm]

 It comes at the cost of not taking dual wield with it's inherent double attack speed

Dual wield doesn't grant anywhere near the double attack speed bonus your dream of .. It actually slows down the rate of attack of the main hand significantly ( as it must now wait for the off hand attacks  - if off hand does **** damage - you can end up lowering your overall DPS by adding a weak weapon in the off hand) ..

 

Overall (if you dual identical weapons) the equivalent attack speed is rough-fully *0.75 compared to using a single weapon *1 ..   ~33%  increase not 100% like your're imagining ..  Keep in mind dual wielding carries at -12 accuracy penalty compared to single weapon ..

 

What sells dual wielding is the extra speed from the extra talent and abilities that use "full attack"  (get two chances to stun/blind/hobble/barbaric blow ..etc when using two weapons) ..

 

And the fact that hit mods are additive - faster attack speed can make up for less crits (-12 accuracy) if enough damage mods are provided (ex melee rogue)

Edited May 8, 2015 by peddroelm