Road to the White House 2016

[Namutree]

Well there's IP, but you don't consider that valid. Private property, such as land and buildings, is similar to intellectual property in that it's a legal construct supported only by the threat of force from the state.

When private property exists, both the means of production and distribution are private channels. So while production is obviously exclusive to those with access to means of production, the ability to distribute products is also gatekept by private entities. Steam is an example of this, as distribution of videogames is relegated to a private entity and entry into the market will be nigh impossible if you are unable to sell through Steam(or GoG or whatever other digital distribution service there is) due to the owners of the distribution channel not allowing it. Direct sales require a go between for payment, so if currency processors don't want to do business with you, you're out of options to sell your product and are barred from the market.

 

Couldn't you just sell your product on your own website or something?

[BruceVC]

 

Well there's IP, but you don't consider that valid. Private property, such as land and buildings, is similar to intellectual property in that it's a legal construct supported only by the threat of force from the state.

When private property exists, both the means of production and distribution are private channels. So while production is obviously exclusive to those with access to means of production, the ability to distribute products is also gatekept by private entities. Steam is an example of this, as distribution of videogames is relegated to a private entity and entry into the market will be nigh impossible if you are unable to sell through Steam(or GoG or whatever other digital distribution service there is) due to the owners of the distribution channel not allowing it. Direct sales require a go between for payment, so if currency processors don't want to do business with you, you're out of options to sell your product and are barred from the market.

 

Couldn't you just sell your product on your own website or something?

 

I have to be honest this discussion you guys have been having is confusing? Has it got anything to  do with Scandinavia ?

[Namutree]

 

 

Well there's IP, but you don't consider that valid. Private property, such as land and buildings, is similar to intellectual property in that it's a legal construct supported only by the threat of force from the state.

When private property exists, both the means of production and distribution are private channels. So while production is obviously exclusive to those with access to means of production, the ability to distribute products is also gatekept by private entities. Steam is an example of this, as distribution of videogames is relegated to a private entity and entry into the market will be nigh impossible if you are unable to sell through Steam(or GoG or whatever other digital distribution service there is) due to the owners of the distribution channel not allowing it. Direct sales require a go between for payment, so if currency processors don't want to do business with you, you're out of options to sell your product and are barred from the market.

 

Couldn't you just sell your product on your own website or something?

 

I have to be honest this discussion you guys have been having is confusing? Has it got anything to  do with Scandinavia ?

 

This conversation is just about private property in general.

[BruceVC]

 

 

 

Well there's IP, but you don't consider that valid. Private property, such as land and buildings, is similar to intellectual property in that it's a legal construct supported only by the threat of force from the state.

When private property exists, both the means of production and distribution are private channels. So while production is obviously exclusive to those with access to means of production, the ability to distribute products is also gatekept by private entities. Steam is an example of this, as distribution of videogames is relegated to a private entity and entry into the market will be nigh impossible if you are unable to sell through Steam(or GoG or whatever other digital distribution service there is) due to the owners of the distribution channel not allowing it. Direct sales require a go between for payment, so if currency processors don't want to do business with you, you're out of options to sell your product and are barred from the market.

 

Couldn't you just sell your product on your own website or something?

 

I have to be honest this discussion you guys have been having is confusing? Has it got anything to  do with Scandinavia ?

 

This conversation is just about private property in general.

 

Okay ....I was wondering why KP was asking all these strange questions about Scandinavia...but he wasn't so it makes sense now 

 

Because we were talking about the Scandinavian countries 

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

 

Well there's IP, but you don't consider that valid. Private property, such as land and buildings, is similar to intellectual property in that it's a legal construct supported only by the threat of force from the state.

 

When private property exists, both the means of production and distribution are private channels. So while production is obviously exclusive to those with access to means of production, the ability to distribute products is also gatekept by private entities. Steam is an example of this, as distribution of videogames is relegated to a private entity and entry into the market will be nigh impossible if you are unable to sell through Steam(or GoG or whatever other digital distribution service there is) due to the owners of the distribution channel not allowing it. Direct sales require a go between for payment, so if currency processors don't want to do business with you, you're out of options to sell your product and are barred from the market.

 

Couldn't you just sell your product on your own website or something?

I addressed that when I brought up direct sales. If you want to do that you have to either rely on an existing service or create your own service to process payment. The former relies on the property of others while the later is prohibitively expensive and effort intensive.

[Zoraptor]

Selling on your own website also has discoverability issues, whatever system is being used. Even in a theoretic 'flat' system where you start off without a steam/ itunes/ amazon or whatever you still have dozens/ hundreds/ thousands of potential vendors and little meaningful method of sorting them short of a self reinforcing and gameable popularity type sorting method which is likely to lead to the system we have now one way or another. You're still going to end up with some sort of skewed system because information sorting is an inherently hierarchical process- else it wouldn't be sorting- and people are not pure economic animals seeking the best mutual deal, many will settle for a decent deal/ product which is convenient over a better one that takes more effort to find.

[BruceVC]

Selling on your own website also has discoverability issues, whatever system is being used. Even in a theoretic 'flat' system where you start off without a steam/ itunes/ amazon or whatever you still have dozens/ hundreds/ thousands of potential vendors and little meaningful method of sorting them short of a self reinforcing and gameable popularity type sorting method which is likely to lead to the system we have now one way or another. You're still going to end up with some sort of skewed system because information sorting is an inherently hierarchical process- else it wouldn't be sorting- and people are not pure economic animals seeking the best mutual deal, many will settle for a decent deal/ product which is convenient over a better one that takes more effort to find.

Thanks for commenting Zora, I was hoping someone would comment 

[Wrath of Dagon]

WOD  I meant this ruling in the supreme court where gay marriage is legal in all states. Now I know you are more conservative on these matters and I respect that. But what is interesting is even people on these forums who support gay rights like me thought this was a step too far by the US Supreme court, what did you think?

I already said that by Kennedy's legal reasoning you can find a right to anything, so yes, it's a bad decision. This is a case of the Court acting as an unelected legislature, which it's done since 1930's. So what we have in this country is the tyranny of the judiciary.

[Hurlshort]

As opposed to the tyranny of the majority?

[Namutree]

 

I addressed that when I brought up direct sales. If you want to do that you have to either rely on an existing service or create your own service to process payment. The former relies on the property of others while the later is prohibitively expensive and effort intensive.

 

Yeah, establishing your own service would be a pain, but it's not like this due to the existence of already existing private services. This would still be the case even if those private services (like steam) didn't exist. What you seem to be complaining about is the lack of a public service, not that private services exist. Which would mean that this isn't an example of private property being a limiting factor. Private & public services do not exist exclusively to one another.

[Guard Dog]

As opposed to the tyranny of the majority?

The best defense for that is Federalism which the court dealt yet another serious blow.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

 

I addressed that when I brought up direct sales. If you want to do that you have to either rely on an existing service or create your own service to process payment. The former relies on the property of others while the later is prohibitively expensive and effort intensive.

 

Yeah, establishing your own service would be a pain, but it's not like this due to the existence of already existing private services. This would still be the case even if those private services (like steam) didn't exist. What you seem to be complaining about is the lack of a public service, not that private services exist. Which would mean that this isn't an example of private property being a limiting factor. Private & public services do not exist exclusively to one another.

Establishment of a private service(currency processing or distribution of goods) that was open to all or is personal is limited by capital, which is private property. So it is limited by private property.

 

As to a public service for exchange or distribution, we can't really have that with intrusion from government whether that government is a state or a corporation.

[Namutree]

 

 

I addressed that when I brought up direct sales. If you want to do that you have to either rely on an existing service or create your own service to process payment. The former relies on the property of others while the later is prohibitively expensive and effort intensive.

Yeah, establishing your own service would be a pain, but it's not like this due to the existence of already existing private services. This would still be the case even if those private services (like steam) didn't exist. What you seem to be complaining about is the lack of a public service, not that private services exist. Which would mean that this isn't an example of private property being a limiting factor. Private & public services do not exist exclusively to one another.

Establishment of a private service(currency processing or distribution of goods) that was open to all or is personal is limited by capital, which is private property. So it is limited by private property.

 

As to a public service for exchange or distribution, we can't really have that with intrusion from government whether that government is a state or a corporation.

 

A public service CAN be established without the government. There is no public service that actually needs the government. What the government does is bring the violence needed for forced participation or suppression; voluntary public participation is still possible. 

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

 

 

 

I addressed that when I brought up direct sales. If you want to do that you have to either rely on an existing service or create your own service to process payment. The former relies on the property of others while the later is prohibitively expensive and effort intensive.

 

Yeah, establishing your own service would be a pain, but it's not like this due to the existence of already existing private services. This would still be the case even if those private services (like steam) didn't exist. What you seem to be complaining about is the lack of a public service, not that private services exist. Which would mean that this isn't an example of private property being a limiting factor. Private & public services do not exist exclusively to one another.

Establishment of a private service(currency processing or distribution of goods) that was open to all or is personal is limited by capital, which is private property. So it is limited by private property.

As to a public service for exchange or distribution, we can't really have that with intrusion from government whether that government is a state or a corporation.

A public service CAN be established without the government. There is no public service that actually needs the government. What the government does is bring the violence needed for forced participation or suppression; voluntary public participation is still possible.

That's assuming some form of government pressure, whether from state or corporation, doesn't attempt to seize control over it. Given the actions of states and corporations, I doubt that would be the case.

[Orogun01]

 

 

 

I addressed that when I brought up direct sales. If you want to do that you have to either rely on an existing service or create your own service to process payment. The former relies on the property of others while the later is prohibitively expensive and effort intensive.

Yeah, establishing your own service would be a pain, but it's not like this due to the existence of already existing private services. This would still be the case even if those private services (like steam) didn't exist. What you seem to be complaining about is the lack of a public service, not that private services exist. Which would mean that this isn't an example of private property being a limiting factor. Private & public services do not exist exclusively to one another.

Establishment of a private service(currency processing or distribution of goods) that was open to all or is personal is limited by capital, which is private property. So it is limited by private property.

 

As to a public service for exchange or distribution, we can't really have that with intrusion from government whether that government is a state or a corporation.

 

A public service CAN be established without the government. There is no public service that actually needs the government. What the government does is bring the violence needed for forced participation or suppression; voluntary public participation is still possible. 

 

A public service that isn't backed by violence is just asking to be abused. The threat of violence is what made society and its what keeps society from falling apart.

[BruceVC]

I see Biden is considering a surprise announcement to run for the presidency candidacy ...I sincerely hope he doesn't as this will weaken the Hilary Clinton support base 

 

Surly he must be aware he cannot win the candidacy but it will weaken Hilary Clinton and increase someones chances like Sanders

[Guard Dog]

A Biden candidacy would be a non stop hit parade of gaffes, bad jokes, offensive off-the-cuff comments and all around laughs. I can't wait!

 

Bruce you need to realize Hillary is done as a viable candidate. She is sour, unpleasant, arrogant, dishonest, and even if she is not indicted for mishandling classified material then covering it up (by no means a certainty) the stink of it will haunt her from here on out.

[BruceVC]

A Biden candidacy would be a non stop hit parade of gaffes, bad jokes, offensive off-the-cuff comments and all around laughs. I can't wait!

 

Bruce you need to realize Hillary is done as a viable candidate. She is sour, unpleasant, arrogant, dishonest, and even if she is not indicted for mishandling classified material then covering it up (by no means a certainty) the stink of it will haunt her from here on out.

Well she still is the primary choice of most Democrats so unless this changes and Sanders passes her she is ontrack to become the candidate ?

[Guard Dog]

 

A Biden candidacy would be a non stop hit parade of gaffes, bad jokes, offensive off-the-cuff comments and all around laughs. I can't wait!

 

Bruce you need to realize Hillary is done as a viable candidate. She is sour, unpleasant, arrogant, dishonest, and even if she is not indicted for mishandling classified material then covering it up (by no means a certainty) the stink of it will haunt her from here on out.

Well she still is the primary choice of most Democrats so unless this changes and Sanders passes her she is ontrack to become the candidate ?

 

She may become the nominee, but the Repubs would have to REALLY screw up to let her win it all. Nominating Jeb Bush and having Trump run as a third party candidate is one way it could happen. Maybe just nominating Bush would be enough. People who actually value freedom and liberty are not going to support Democrat-Lite. Romney was proof of that.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

With the radio silence from most candidates on the TPP and the Freedom Act, I doubt freedom is particularly important to the campaigns running in the Republican primary.

[Namutree]

With the radio silence from most candidates on the TPP and the Freedom Act, I doubt freedom is particularly important to the campaigns running in the Republican primary.

Yeah, WTF is up with that? If the republicans are for it they need to come out and say so; that way I can be sure not to vote for them. At this rate I'll be voting for Sanders. That'd be strange.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

 

With the radio silence from most candidates on the TPP and the Freedom Act, I doubt freedom is particularly important to the campaigns running in the Republican primary.

 

Yeah, WTF is up with that? If the republicans are for it they need to come out and say so; that way I can be sure not to vote for them. At this rate I'll be voting for Sanders. That'd be strange.

I'd say the reason it isn't widely talked about is that it's being kept on the down low.

[Zoraptor]

Everybody's TPP strategy is to keep it on the down low. The current security situation for reading it is not that far off viewing top secret material- no recording or electronic devices, no note taking, very limited number of people able to view it even under those conditions. That seems to be entirely about being able to waffle vaguely about it being 'transparent' and 'beneficial' with a perfect excuse for being vague about how plus claim it won't have negatives; and to shut down questioning since there's no detail.

 

From what has been leaked of the text it's perfectly clear it has little if anything to do with 'free trade' that's for sure, but for joe public reading even the bits that have been leaked requires a visit to wikileaks.

[Wrath of Dagon]

As opposed to the tyranny of the majority?

Only if you define "tyranny of the majority" as "I didn't get my way, no matter what the laws and the Constitution says". If you don't like a law, work to change it, the courts are not a legislature.

 

 

With the radio silence from most candidates on the TPP and the Freedom Act, I doubt freedom is particularly important to the campaigns running in the Republican primary.

That's because most Republican candidates are owned by corporations, and even for the ones that aren't this isn't a real vote getter issue. You'd first have to explain what TPP does, and there are much more visceral issues to talk about.

 

Edit: Interesting aside, I just installed Windows 10 and their Edge browser doesn't let me quote posts. May be some security setting I have to change.

Edited August 24, 2015 by Wrath of Dagon

[Hurlshort]

 

As opposed to the tyranny of the majority?

Only if you define "tyranny of the majority" as "I didn't get my way, no matter what the laws and the Constitution says". If you don't like a law, work to change it, the courts are not a legislature.

 

 

When a law is discriminatory, the courts are the place you go to change it.  That is exactly what gay couples did, they worked to change the law because it was discriminatory.  You really think civil rights should just be at the whim of the largest group?

Edited August 24, 2015 by Hurlshot