MOON-SIZED plot hole - "Supply and Demand" quest

[Katarack21]

 

 

 

Basically your defense of the plot hole is argument for racism in its purest form. "I don't want to touch that lady/dude because he looks different.". You attribute strong racism to people of Eora, and back it up by saying you wouldn't touch them either.

They're not different races, they are separate species with distinct evolutionary lineages. Less like white people and black people, more like gorillas and chimpanzees.

 

 

If it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it's a duck.

I don't care about lore justification. The point is, they only superficially differ in appearance, size and shape.

No, dude, seriously. THEY'RE DIFFERENT SPECIES.

 

They can't reproduce because they are fundamentally incompatible BECAUSE THEY ARE DIFFERENT SPECIES.

 

A human being can't reproduce with a chimpanzee, because while we are superficially very similar creatures we are chromosomal incompatible. Matings between species are very rare, and very rarely reproduce offspring--and when they do, the offspring is almost always sterile. It's not a matter of racism, it's a fundamental aspect of how creatures are built--we mate with our own species. It has nothing to do with Africans and Asians, it's ****ing ORLANS and HUMANS. They can't reproduce and their's no reason to suppose they'd naturally develop attractions for each other. On occasions, yes--but usually different species don't mate.

[b0rsuk]

No, dude, seriously. THEY'RE DIFFERENT SPECIES.

 

They can't reproduce because they are fundamentally incompatible BECAUSE THEY ARE DIFFERENT SPECIES.

 

A human being can't reproduce with a chimpanzee, because while we are superficially very similar creatures we are chromosomal incompatible. Matings between species are very rare, and very rarely reproduce offspring--and when they do, the offspring is almost always sterile. It's not a matter of racism, it's a fundamental aspect of how creatures are built--we mate with our own species. It has nothing to do with Africans and Asians, it's ****ing ORLANS and HUMANS. They can't reproduce and their's no reason to suppose they'd naturally develop attractions for each other. On occasions, yes--but usually different species don't mate.

 

 

Okayyy... but I wasn't talking about reproduction. Just sex. Salty Mast, the brothel quest. Feel free to get worked up about something I wasn't talking about. Infertile women can be attractive. I still think women of other races are more attractive than a man of the same race (for a heterosexual).

 

 

 

That said, there are definitely individuals whose relatively narrow sexual tastes are confined to those similar to themselves in appearance, for reasons no more sinister or complicated than individual preference. So there would undoubtedly be customers exclusively interested in people of their own species, and turning them away would be bad for the Salty Mast's business. Thus, it's probably important to have squash seeds on hand, even if some of the clientele is happy to do the interspecies tango.

 

To make that fly, you'd have to edit the conversation with the harassing thugs, who are from the Dozens. They blame Maea for increasing prices, so that only nobles can afford them. They feel everyone deserves a visit in a whorehouse. They say absolutely nothing of having to do it with a dwarf, elf, or aumaua. And it would be inconvenient to suddenly make the Dozens racist, because - I think - that's one of the few cases of diversity they accept. Someone said he went with Dozens because Knights told him right away orlans are dirty thieves. If you suddenly make them openly racist, they will look even less attractive next to the other factions.

 

 

You know, if there's one plot hole with inter-kith relations, it's that they're sterile in the first place. There's a goddess of motherhood.  Wouldn't she have an interest in at least the occasional miracle birth? Parthenogenesis even? If all we're going to have is plain old secular nature, why bother with deities in the first place?

Godlikes ?

Edited May 2, 2015 by b0rsuk

[Ineth]

You know, if there's one plot hole with inter-kith relations, it's that they're sterile in the first place. There's a goddess of motherhood.  Wouldn't she have an interest in at least the occasional miracle birth?

 

She'd get in trouble with the god of game design, who thinks that 6 races (with 2 to 4 subraces each) is a sufficient amount, and wouldn't be thrilled about having to come up with character models, portraits, stats, and racial talents for lots of half- and mix-races.

[b0rsuk]

Once you allow half-elves in your game, what about other mixes ? Half-dwarves, half-aumaua, half-orlans ? And why limit it to humans ? You have 5 non-sterile races. That's 10 half races you'd have to create, balance, and make distinct and interesting. And if you add a sixth race, you will need 6 more half races. How do you even name them ?

Edited May 2, 2015 by b0rsuk

[Rosveen]

Or you could just not make mixed races playable. Problem solved.

[Ineth]

NPCs need stats, racial talents, and 3D models too.

Edited May 2, 2015 by Ineth

[gkathellar]

That said, there are definitely individuals whose relatively narrow sexual tastes are confined to those similar to themselves in appearance, for reasons no more sinister or complicated than individual preference. So there would undoubtedly be customers exclusively interested in people of their own species, and turning them away would be bad for the Salty Mast's business. Thus, it's probably important to have squash seeds on hand, even if some of the clientele is happy to do the interspecies tango.

 

To make that fly, you'd have to edit the conversation with the harassing thugs, who are from the Dozens. They blame Maea for increasing prices, so that only nobles can afford them. They feel everyone deserves a visit in a whorehouse. They say absolutely nothing of having to do it with a dwarf, elf, or aumaua.

 

They're mad because her prices have gone up. Her prices have gone up because squash seed prices have gone up. She needs squash seeds because some of the clientele want to hire female prostitutes of their own species. Presumably she's spreading the cost out, which raises prices overall.

 

I'm not saying it's flawless logic, but it's so easy to explain away that I think you can safely suspend your disbelief.

[Rosveen]

NPCs need stats, racial talents, and 3D models too.

Good point. Maybe half-races could be similar enough to one of their parents' race that they'd use the same model? I'm just trying to think of our options here, I'm not actually for inclusion of half-races, I'm fine without them. Even if they aren't featured in the game at all or appear rarely, it's still time spent on creating their lore and gameplay representation. So sterility is one option to avoid it. TES games used another, with offspring always sharing the race of the mother and possibly inheriting minor traits of the father, which start showing in a significant way only after many generations of interracial breeding (like Bretons, the closest thing to half-elves in that universe).

[Rostere]

How is it that every thread or argument that starts with "plot hole" is always unmistakably about something utterly retarded?

[quechn1tlan]

And by moon-sized you mean a slight, insignificant, absolutely explainable inconsistency in the most minor of inconsequential sidequests?

 

You do know the moon is not that little thing in the sky and is not actually smaller than your thumb?

[b0rsuk]

And by moon-sized you mean a slight, insignificant, absolutely explainable inconsistency in the most minor of inconsequential sidequests?

 

You do know the moon is not that little thing in the sky and is not actually smaller than your thumb?

 

Explainable in the sense that it can be explained by an error on the part of the writers. It's literally the simplest explanation. Why make up something convoluted ?

Edited May 2, 2015 by b0rsuk

[perilisk]

 

You know, if there's one plot hole with inter-kith relations, it's that they're sterile in the first place. There's a goddess of motherhood.  Wouldn't she have an interest in at least the occasional miracle birth?

 

She'd get in trouble with the god of game design, who thinks that 6 races (with 2 to 4 subraces each) is a sufficient amount, and wouldn't be thrilled about having to come up with character models, portraits, stats, and racial talents for lots of half- and mix-races.

 

 

Elder Scrolls rules, halfbreeds always take the race of their mother. Or, they're godlikes.

[Katarack21]

 

Basically your defense of the plot hole is argument for racism in its purest form. "I don't want to touch that lady/dude because he looks different.". You attribute strong racism to people of Eora, and back it up by saying you wouldn't touch them either.

 

I think you are overestimating how much relevance this issue has to the real world, just like people in this thread are generally underestimating how diverse human sexual tastes are in the real world. It's not so much racism as it is underestimation of the human drive to bonk anything and everything.

 

As for those who are doing the underestimation, I'd like to remind you that most people with Western European heritage have Neanderthal DNA.

 

Yes, and most Asians have Denisovan DNA, etc. But it was never very common--the DNA percentages we see indicate that some hybridization took place, but that it was *very rare*.

 

 

The scientific paper actually says "analysis of the nuclear DNA from the Neanderthal suggests the low likelihood of it having occurred at any appreciable level." It happened, but *it was rare*. This makes sense; homo sapien sapiens (which includes black people, white people, etc. all together) evolved to be sexually attracted to homo sapien sapiens so as to continue the existence of homo sapien sapiens. Homo Sapien Sapien did not evolve to continue the line of homo neanderthals.

 

People keep acting like elves, humans, orlans, etc. are somehow not completely separate and independent species with no relation to each other at all.

[b0rsuk]

You desperately cling to the fact the races are called different species. It's just that - a name. Differences in appearance and shape are superficial. They wear the same clothes, armor, and use the same items, speak the same languages, eat the same food, have the same emotions and goals. That they can't have common children looks almost meaningless by comparison.

 

Iovara was an elf, but you can tell Thaos you were in love with her, even if you're NOT an elf yourself. That would prove that love between species is possible in Eora, so different race wouldn't matter much in practice. Sex comes naturally after love (not only after). And if PC loved Iovara because his soul was an elf at the time, that's interesting. It would mean the same soul can "power" different species. Which also means different races don't mean much other than reproduction. I believe the latter is the case, the ending of Hiravias' quest proves it.

Edited May 2, 2015 by b0rsuk

[Ineth]

the ending of Hiravias' quest proves it.

 

The ending of Sagani's quest, too.

[b0rsuk]

I'm eager to hear what some designers and writers think about the issue, how they justify it. In my opinion the most elegant and complete fix would be "Races can have children with each other, but the child takes the race from father/mother." No swinger's paradise, no headache with elf-aumaua hybrids either.

[Katarack21]

You desperately cling to the fact the races are called different species. It's just that - a name. Differences in appearance and shape are superficial.

No. Something is very different between the species on some level. They can't reproduce with each other. A horse and a donkey look a hell of a lot alike, too--but they rarely breed naturally (mules are *mostly* a creation of man). Polar bears and grizzly bears occasionally crossbreed--but again it's quite rare. Same with bonobo's and chimps (never recorded in the wild, a few times in captivity).

 

They are separate species. Just because they "look at lot alike" doesn't *mean* anything as far as biology, reproduction, and sexual attraction is concerned.

[Varana]

Introducing a new and major issue into the world design with a blatantly cop-out non-explanation: "inter-species procreation is possible (thus defying the main definition of 'species'), but for some completely random reason, which you all totally don't need to know, children always have the race of one parent" - just to "fix" a quest that only you seem to have a major problem with, is anything but an "elegant fix".

[Venatio]

I'm eager to hear what some designers and writers think about the issue, how they justify it. In my opinion the most elegant and complete fix would be "Races can have children with each other, but the child takes the race from father/mother." No swinger's paradise, no headache with elf-aumaua hybrids either.

 

This is a terrible idea. There are bad ideas and then there are terrible ideas. This falls into the latter category.

 

You have done nothing but argue your narrow viewpoint while refusing to see the obvious facts before you as presented by the community. There is no moon-sized plothole, there is a need for bitter seed contraceptives, and we should all be grateful that half-elves or what have you are not a thing. 

[b0rsuk]

What are the obvious facts ? List them, point by point.

 

The longer you think about this quest, the less it makes sense. You don't understand, or pretend to not understand, how strong sexual drive is. Females of other races have been made to look attractive to us, players, which means humans. They need to be or female players would stay AWAY from them. If they are attractive to us, why not to humans of Eora ? Are the humans somehow different at fundamental level ? You don't need to be able to reproduce to feel attraction to someone.

 

Sexuality of Eora is just a huge blank. Almost nothing can be found about it in game lore, books etc. Until proven otherwise, it's rational to assume they work the way we do. Plus whatever was said about mixing of races: they can't produce offspring.

 

In Eora, there is abundance of sexual partners who have no need for contraceptives. There is huge supply of them, so except for very strict people, or people who consider sex without reproduction sinful, no one should get worked up about bitter squash seeds. People who consider sex without reproduction sinful have no business being in Salty Mast anyway. It's like a quest about selling ice cream to Inuit (a.k.a. Eskimo).

 

 

 

Sexual pairings by different races never result in conception.

This is a cop-out explanation, too, and it has serious consequences for the setting. I can't believe races stay away from each other because someone told them they're separate species.

Edited May 3, 2015 by b0rsuk

[Venatio]

I will humor you and outline the simple facts, then leave this forum post to rot. 

 

1. The vast majority of Dyrewood inhabitants are human. Same species, Waidwens Legacy is still around, ergo need for contraceptives.

 

2. Yes, members of different species sleep with other members. This is established. This does not contradict point 1. 

     - See the quest "Final Act" and the dwarf noble woman.

 

3. Just because sexual pairings do not result in conception does not mean that people do not sleep with each other. They would not stay away from each other because of that. But they would not stay away from their own species because of that either. See point 1.

Edited May 3, 2015 by Venatio

[Luckmann]

I wonder just how hairy a hearth orlan really is.

[Ineth]

I wonder just how hairy a hearth orlan really is.

 

[Katarack21]

 

I wonder just how hairy a hearth orlan really is.

 

 

 

Those are wild orlans. This is a hearth orlan.

 

[Ineth]

Oh, you're right.