Tanks need some kind of overhaul.

[Raven Darkholme]

 

 

It be cool if classes other than fighter could take defender. Then your priest/paladin could be the tank and your fighter more attacking if you like

 

You have a talent called cautious attacker or somesuch which gives +10 deflection and -20% speed.  It's modal like wary defender, then you can grab superior deflection for extra +5.  Won't help with Fort/Ref/Will though.  Or you could bring a chanter singing a defensive chant all day long....or you could take a paladin with shielding flames for a +10 deflection for short periods.  There are myriad ways to keep your Deflection up.

 

Paladin is actually the best tank in the game in the respect to get highest Deflection, Fort/Ref/Will if you have him/her as your PC.  With right dialogue choices you and one talent you can get a +13def and 26 to Fort/Ref/Will

 

 

13/27/27/27, actually.

 

It bears noting that for a fighter who doesn't dump Int, Vigorous Defense + Wary Defender will raise your defenses above what a paladin can get with F&C + Cautious Attack. Paladin wins out in longer fights, which means it becomes hands-down better for solo play once it hits its stride. In party play, where fights rarely last the full duration of Vigorous Defense, a fighter has the edge.

 

Thats not true the paladins deflection is higher, his other defenses are waaaay higher than the fighters.

 

edit: Vigorous Defense doesn't matter it only lasts 20 seconds, there are plenty of fights longer than that even in a group. If you sole pretty much every fight lasts longer.

Edited April 25, 2015 by Raven Darkholme

[gkathellar]

 

 

 

It be cool if classes other than fighter could take defender. Then your priest/paladin could be the tank and your fighter more attacking if you like

 

You have a talent called cautious attacker or somesuch which gives +10 deflection and -20% speed.  It's modal like wary defender, then you can grab superior deflection for extra +5.  Won't help with Fort/Ref/Will though.  Or you could bring a chanter singing a defensive chant all day long....or you could take a paladin with shielding flames for a +10 deflection for short periods.  There are myriad ways to keep your Deflection up.

 

Paladin is actually the best tank in the game in the respect to get highest Deflection, Fort/Ref/Will if you have him/her as your PC.  With right dialogue choices you and one talent you can get a +13def and 26 to Fort/Ref/Will

 

 

13/27/27/27, actually.

 

It bears noting that for a fighter who doesn't dump Int, Vigorous Defense + Wary Defender will raise your defenses above what a paladin can get with F&C + Cautious Attack. Paladin wins out in longer fights, which means it becomes hands-down better for solo play once it hits its stride. In party play, where fights rarely last the full duration of Vigorous Defense, a fighter has the edge.

 

Thats not true the paladins deflection is higher, his other defenses are waaaay higher than the fighters.

 

edit: Vigorous Defense doesn't matter it only lasts 20 seconds, there are plenty of fights longer than that even in a group. If you sole pretty much every fight lasts longer.

 

 

... yes, that's exactly what I wrote.

[Raven Darkholme]

Then I misinterpreted your post, sorry.

[Rumpelstilskin]

I think the reason is that ranged weapons plainly outdamage melee. Being ranged is a very strong advantage on its own, and usually it's being balanced out by either doing less damage, or heavy circumstantial penalties. In IE games if you wanted to hurt someone real bad, you took a two-hander; in PoE you take an arquebus and do it from a safe distance.

 

So at first I thought that maybe if firing into melee were strongly penalized (not necessarily as strongly as friendly fire, but perhaps a large acc penalty), unless you shoot someone in the back, in which case it gets boni instead, that would create a much more balanced system, and DPSing would even need some tactics to position the shooters. But then I realized that it would just mean that your shooters would first deal with casters and enemy shooters (which they do anyway), and then just safely re-position. So not much changes, except maybe in the most notorious chokepoint scenarios. 

 

I guess shooting someone in the back with a crossbow while he's being busy in melee just is a better way of doing damage, so if you have such option, melee does boil down to keeping the enemies busy. That's how it is. It is boring, but someone has to do it. Generally, I think that, while it can possibly be engaging with complete micro-control, in squad tactics games melee is boring on a fundamental level. 

 

So a final thought, perhaps the tank doesn't have to be a fighter at all? Might as well be a druid for instance - they have good deflection, and w+s, cautious attack are general talents, so they can pick them up as well. And now your most durable unit is also a healer and a spell-caster. 

[petrivanzyl]

If you want to make it realistic your range attacks should accidentally hit your own melee in the back on misses or there should be line of fire penalties

[Rumpelstilskin]

If you want to make it realistic your range attacks should accidentally hit your own melee in the back on misses or there should be line of fire penalties

Not just for realism sake, it'd also balance out the ranged advantage. But I'm almost sure Obsidian experimented with it, so I guess the decision not to do it was deliberate.

[Shadenuat]

Stop following guides on the internet and making 2 str orlan fighters ffs.

[Raven Darkholme]

Stop following guides on the internet and making 2 str orlan fighters ffs.

This. Might is so good in this game, it even raises your tankiness if you're moon godlike.

[Grakor456]

No. It has nothing to do with building kensai/mages or whatever, or even really increasing the capacity of tanks doing damage. The issue is really that specialization is too rewarding. There is no diminishing returns on anything, and a lot of game mechanics favour over-specialization. If you want to be a good tank, you stack Deflection upon Deflection, you take the Heaviest armour, and you max Perception and Resolve.

 

This. The lack of diminishing returns is really a big deal, I think, and this game proves why it's often a good idea. The problem is the same for DPS builds as well, due to the way that Might, Dexterity, and Intelligence effectively amplify one another.

 

More than anything else, I wish this game offered less rewards for stacking a stat and punished you more for dumping a stat...some kind of mechanical advantage to spreading stats out more. Instead, you get the best mathematical advantages just going all out on either defense or offense. I think a lot of the balance issues involving melee classes (especially paladin, monk, and barbarian) are tied to this.

[mazeltov]

Might is so good in this game, it even raises your tankiness if you're moon godlike.

 

Might improves Fighter tankiness in other ways. It scales Constant Recovery, Drain restoration, and potion healing.

[Kaigen42]

13/27/27/27, actually.

 

It bears noting that for a fighter who doesn't dump Int, Vigorous Defense + Wary Defender will raise your defenses above what a paladin can get with F&C + Cautious Attack. Paladin wins out in longer fights, which means it becomes hands-down better for solo play once it hits its stride. In party play, where fights rarely last the full duration of Vigorous Defense, a fighter has the edge.

 

It also bears noting that Vigorous Defense doesn't stack with any defense buffing spells. If your Priest likes to drop Circle of Protection for those short fights, the Fighter's edge largely disappears.

 

I think the reason is that ranged weapons plainly outdamage melee. Being ranged is a very strong advantage on its own, and usually it's being balanced out by either doing less damage, or heavy circumstantial penalties. In IE games if you wanted to hurt someone real bad, you took a two-hander; in PoE you take an arquebus and do it from a safe distance.

 

Ranged weapons do not outdamage melee. Arquebuses have shiny high base damage numbers, but they are much, much slower than melee weapons. Even with the Gunner talent, you can still get in 3 attacks with an Estoc for every Arquebus shot, and the melee combatant can take Savage Attack for an additional damage boost and doesn't have to labor under the reduced critical damage bonus of guns/arbalest. I would go so far as to say that even a character specialized in ranged combat (with the possible exception of the Ranger) could be doing more damage if they switched to a two-handed weapon or dual-wielded. 

 

The reason ranged DPS builds are so popular isn't because they're more damaging, it's because the nature of the Defense and Attribute systems means that pushing damage as much as you can severely neglects defenses, and it's easier to keep a glass cannon alive in the backline. Especially since Engagement only stops enemies from moving and won't stop them from pivoting to attack a fragile melee DPS character. Also, a ranged character retains the freedom to actually move, which is important for avoiding battlefield hazards and targeting active abilities.

[Antless]

Stop following guides on the internet and making 2 str orlan fighters ffs.

As if not dumping might would do anything to improve the damage output.

[Kaigen42]

 

Stop following guides on the internet and making 2 str orlan fighters ffs.

As if not dumping might would do anything to improve the damage output.

 

 

Oh, there's a definite impact. My 18 Might Fighter did twice as much damage as my 2 Might Paladin in my PotD run. Of course, that Fighter was still doing only a quarter of the damage of my actual DPS specialists, so it's certainly not anything magnificent.

[Antless]

 

 

Stop following guides on the internet and making 2 str orlan fighters ffs.

As if not dumping might would do anything to improve the damage output.

 

 

Oh, there's a definite impact. My 18 Might Fighter did twice as much damage as my 2 Might Paladin in my PotD run. Of course, that Fighter was still doing only a quarter of the damage of my actual DPS specialists, so it's certainly not anything magnificent.

 

But isn't that exactly what the whole thread is about? "Tanks" in IE games were useful damage dealers in their own right, in PoE they aren't.

[Raven Darkholme]

 

Might is so good in this game, it even raises your tankiness if you're moon godlike.

 

 

Might improves Fighter tankiness in other ways. It scales Constant Recovery, Drain restoration, and potion healing.

Huh? I wasn't even talking non fighter. ;p

[Rumpelstilskin]

 

I think the reason is that ranged weapons plainly outdamage melee. Being ranged is a very strong advantage on its own, and usually it's being balanced out by either doing less damage, or heavy circumstantial penalties. In IE games if you wanted to hurt someone real bad, you took a two-hander; in PoE you take an arquebus and do it from a safe distance.

 

Ranged weapons do not outdamage melee. Arquebuses have shiny high base damage numbers, but they are much, much slower than melee weapons. Even with the Gunner talent, you can still get in 3 attacks with an Estoc for every Arquebus shot, and the melee combatant can take Savage Attack for an additional damage boost and doesn't have to labor under the reduced critical damage bonus of guns/arbalest. I would go so far as to say that even a character specialized in ranged combat (with the possible exception of the Ranger) could be doing more damage if they switched to a two-handed weapon or dual-wielded. 

 

The reason ranged DPS builds are so popular isn't because they're more damaging, it's because the nature of the Defense and Attribute systems means that pushing damage as much as you can severely neglects defenses, and it's easier to keep a glass cannon alive in the backline. Especially since Engagement only stops enemies from moving and won't stop them from pivoting to attack a fragile melee DPS character. Also, a ranged character retains the freedom to actually move, which is important for avoiding battlefield hazards and targeting active abilities.

Are guns really much, much slower, or just slower? I doubt it's 3 times, since estoc is already slow, and since most enemies have fairly high DR, higher damage is almost always better. War bow has the same damage and speed as melee two-handers for instance. There was a thread in this sub-forum with detailed analysis, and it proved that guns have the best DPS in most common scenarios. I think there are symmetrical skills to boost both ranged and melee, so no win here either. The only problem with guns is overkill, but you can have a specialized fast shooter to finish off almost-dead targets, while the gunners switch to another one.

Even if highly specialized melee could slightly outdamage ranged (which I don't think it can, but for the sake of argument), being able to keep distance is such a huge advantage that it would easily negate that.

[Kaigen42]

 

 

I think the reason is that ranged weapons plainly outdamage melee. Being ranged is a very strong advantage on its own, and usually it's being balanced out by either doing less damage, or heavy circumstantial penalties. In IE games if you wanted to hurt someone real bad, you took a two-hander; in PoE you take an arquebus and do it from a safe distance.

 

Ranged weapons do not outdamage melee. Arquebuses have shiny high base damage numbers, but they are much, much slower than melee weapons. Even with the Gunner talent, you can still get in 3 attacks with an Estoc for every Arquebus shot, and the melee combatant can take Savage Attack for an additional damage boost and doesn't have to labor under the reduced critical damage bonus of guns/arbalest. I would go so far as to say that even a character specialized in ranged combat (with the possible exception of the Ranger) could be doing more damage if they switched to a two-handed weapon or dual-wielded. 

 

The reason ranged DPS builds are so popular isn't because they're more damaging, it's because the nature of the Defense and Attribute systems means that pushing damage as much as you can severely neglects defenses, and it's easier to keep a glass cannon alive in the backline. Especially since Engagement only stops enemies from moving and won't stop them from pivoting to attack a fragile melee DPS character. Also, a ranged character retains the freedom to actually move, which is important for avoiding battlefield hazards and targeting active abilities.

Are guns really much, much slower, or just slower? I doubt it's 3 times, since estoc is already slow, and since most enemies have fairly high DR, higher damage is almost always better. War bow has the same damage and speed as melee two-handers for instance. There was a thread in this sub-forum with detailed analysis, and it proved that guns have the best DPS in most common scenarios. I think there are symmetrical skills to boost both ranged and melee, so no win here either. The only problem with guns is overkill, but you can have a specialized fast shooter to finish off almost-dead targets, while the gunners switch to another one.

Even if highly specialized melee could slightly outdamage ranged (which I don't think it can, but for the sake of argument), being able to keep distance is such a huge advantage that it would easily negate that.

 

You can test it yourself. Take two characters with equal dex and no armor, one with an arquebus and one with an estoc. Pause the game and set them to attack at the same time. Unpause and watch as the estoc user gets three, sometimes four attacks inbetween each shot.

 

There are symmetrical skills to boost melee and ranged; Penetrating Shot and Vulnerable Attack are identical for example. But there's no ranged equivalent to Savage Attack's damage bonus.

 

Consider two characters with 20 Might and Superb weapons, for a 75% damage increase. The estoc has an average damage of 17 * 1.75 = 29.75. The arquebus has an average damage of 30 * 1.75 = 52.5. Over the span of time in which the arquebus gets one shot for 52.25 damage, the estoc user gets 3 for 89.25. And the estoc user gets more bonus damage on a crit. Of course, more attacks means more applications of DR, so against sufficiently high DR the arquebus will outperform the estoc, right? Well, if both are using their respective anti-DR modals, DR doesn't come into play until it's higher than 10. At 20 DR, the estoc drops to 59.25 while the arquebus drops 43.5. It isn't until 28 DR that the arquebus pulls ahead. Even on PotD, there are very few enemies with DR that high; you're basically looking at the Adra Dragon and Adra Animats.

 

Now, I agree that the advantage of being able to keep distance is huge. I prefer ranged DPS over melee DPS myself. But there's no ranged build, again, with the possible exception of the Ranger, that can match melee in terms of raw damage output.

[Raven Darkholme]

Who even cares about estocs, dual wield maces or sabres for even more damage.

[Shadenuat]

Oh, there's a definite impact. My 18 Might Fighter did twice as much damage as my 2 Might Paladin in my PotD run. Of course, that Fighter was still doing only a quarter of the damage of my actual DPS specialists, so it's certainly not anything magnificent.

What the hell do you people even want? A character who has both 150 deflection AND does 150 damage per hit?

 

Even on PoTD you can send a fighter with 2-hander into an encounter and he will kill it all by himself and if not he'll rise from the dead with even more defence and kill them all over again.

 

I agree that fighter's talents for damage are kinda banal (nothing like Whirlwind or Critical Hit HLAs). If focused barrage (+10 accuracy, much interesting, so strong, right) gave like +40 or a 100% crit chance for next hit, and had upgrades, it would be better. And there are just too many passives and specializations that can be summed up as "same **** same ****". But it doesn't mean fighters can't do damage.

Some classes were supposed to be autopilot and some people did argue that it is how it should be since you can't manage everybody in RTwP like you can in TB combat.

 

Either way if you dislike fighters as tanks - don't take them in party. And I'm not saying it like "kek don't like it don't buy it", I'm saying Fighters are not the only option for a tank in party. Make a barbarian tank with OSA, Monk or even a wizard tank. Sure you'll have rougher start before you find your first plate mail and hoard some feats but as long as you carry heavy armor, Second Chance item and hit enough deflection - you're a tank in PoE.

 

But isn't that exactly what the whole thread is about? "Tanks" in IE games were useful damage dealers in their own right, in PoE they aren't.

 

Best tanks in IE games were also spellcasters.

Edited April 25, 2015 by Shadenuat

[Judicator]

Spellcasters were the best at everything in IE games but that's not the point. As others have said the game rewards specialization far too much. You're either a tank, a DPSer, or suboptimal.

[LadyCrimson]

You're either a tank, a DPSer, or suboptimal.

Some people don't care if they're "suboptimal." eg, you can still win even if you're not. And to some, that's even more fun. 

[Shadenuat]

Spellcasters were the best at everything in IE games but that's not the point. As others have said the game rewards specialization far too much. You're either a tank, a DPSer, or suboptimal.

In theory. In practice you can have a tank with 2 str 2 dex and uber deflection and he will be unkillable and won't do any damage, maybe he'll do 2000 damage per *whole game* (I had a tank like that, a Monk who FoA'd everything but didn't do any damage). And you can have a barb who will do 100k damage behind him wearing rags and pocking stuff with a spear.

Or you could have two characters doing 50k damage each.

 

suboptimal

What's "optimal"? 90% of encounters in PoE are trash mobs, and the quicker you clean them the more optimal you are in my opinion. If a tank can help with that and hold mobs long enough he is optimal. And if that's not enough, equip Hatchet, largest shield and drink Llengrath's potion - bam, you're optimal for everything but Adra dragon.

 

People make mistake assuming stats, especially tanking ones, matter much in PoE. They're BanalCed. Those +10-20 extra deflection or 20% extra endurance you get by dumping everything else are not like 18/00 str in IE or even +4 extra hp per level. You can safely run hybrid and "suboptimal" characters on PoTD and still be relatively safe.

Edited April 25, 2015 by Shadenuat

[LadyCrimson]

If one is trying for solo, I can see it being a little irritating at times, but the game is "optimized" for a party, so talking about balance for solo is a bit skewed, imo.

 

Party wise, you can have a somewhat tanky type that can hold the front line but who can still do some helpful damage, even if it's not "omg awesome" dmg, and that seems balanced enough to me. But then, I'm not obsessed with math and formulas...

[Rumpelstilskin]

 

 

 

I think the reason is that ranged weapons plainly outdamage melee. Being ranged is a very strong advantage on its own, and usually it's being balanced out by either doing less damage, or heavy circumstantial penalties. In IE games if you wanted to hurt someone real bad, you took a two-hander; in PoE you take an arquebus and do it from a safe distance.

 

Ranged weapons do not outdamage melee. Arquebuses have shiny high base damage numbers, but they are much, much slower than melee weapons. Even with the Gunner talent, you can still get in 3 attacks with an Estoc for every Arquebus shot, and the melee combatant can take Savage Attack for an additional damage boost and doesn't have to labor under the reduced critical damage bonus of guns/arbalest. I would go so far as to say that even a character specialized in ranged combat (with the possible exception of the Ranger) could be doing more damage if they switched to a two-handed weapon or dual-wielded. 

 

The reason ranged DPS builds are so popular isn't because they're more damaging, it's because the nature of the Defense and Attribute systems means that pushing damage as much as you can severely neglects defenses, and it's easier to keep a glass cannon alive in the backline. Especially since Engagement only stops enemies from moving and won't stop them from pivoting to attack a fragile melee DPS character. Also, a ranged character retains the freedom to actually move, which is important for avoiding battlefield hazards and targeting active abilities.

Are guns really much, much slower, or just slower? I doubt it's 3 times, since estoc is already slow, and since most enemies have fairly high DR, higher damage is almost always better. War bow has the same damage and speed as melee two-handers for instance. There was a thread in this sub-forum with detailed analysis, and it proved that guns have the best DPS in most common scenarios. I think there are symmetrical skills to boost both ranged and melee, so no win here either. The only problem with guns is overkill, but you can have a specialized fast shooter to finish off almost-dead targets, while the gunners switch to another one.

Even if highly specialized melee could slightly outdamage ranged (which I don't think it can, but for the sake of argument), being able to keep distance is such a huge advantage that it would easily negate that.

 

You can test it yourself. Take two characters with equal dex and no armor, one with an arquebus and one with an estoc. Pause the game and set them to attack at the same time. Unpause and watch as the estoc user gets three, sometimes four attacks inbetween each shot.

 

There are symmetrical skills to boost melee and ranged; Penetrating Shot and Vulnerable Attack are identical for example. But there's no ranged equivalent to Savage Attack's damage bonus.

 

Consider two characters with 20 Might and Superb weapons, for a 75% damage increase. The estoc has an average damage of 17 * 1.75 = 29.75. The arquebus has an average damage of 30 * 1.75 = 52.5. Over the span of time in which the arquebus gets one shot for 52.25 damage, the estoc user gets 3 for 89.25. And the estoc user gets more bonus damage on a crit. Of course, more attacks means more applications of DR, so against sufficiently high DR the arquebus will outperform the estoc, right? Well, if both are using their respective anti-DR modals, DR doesn't come into play until it's higher than 10. At 20 DR, the estoc drops to 59.25 while the arquebus drops 43.5. It isn't until 28 DR that the arquebus pulls ahead. Even on PotD, there are very few enemies with DR that high; you're basically looking at the Adra Dragon and Adra Animats.

 

Now, I agree that the advantage of being able to keep distance is huge. I prefer ranged DPS over melee DPS myself. But there's no ranged build, again, with the possible exception of the Ranger, that can match melee in terms of raw damage output.

 

I think anti-DR modals don't make sense if your damage is above 25, so they shouldn't be used in either case. Arquebus has inherent 6 DR, while estoc has 5 (which I think was changed after some patch - I remember it having 3 before). Which makes a break-even DR value about 23, which is not so uncommon, and considering that tough enemies are really the only ones that one should care about, it's even more important. I did test the speed with a character in plate and a gunner trait, and it was almost exactly x3, as you said. However, while a gunner can try and wear lighter armor, for someone who frequently melees it's just too risky. As for savage attack, I just saw a "close shooter" talent on wiki, which increases ranged damage by 10% at "close range", but I don't remember seeing it at any level-up. Is it super-new, or something from the beta?

[Shadenuat]

If one is trying for solo, I can see it being a little irritating at times, but the game is "optimized" for a party, so talking about balance for solo is a bit skewed, imo.

 

Party wise, you can have a somewhat tanky type that can hold the front line but who can still do some helpful damage, even if it's not "omg awesome" dmg, and that seems balanced enough to me. But then, I'm not obsessed with math and formulas...

 

I prefer my Fighters to be killing machines crying "I am new god of murder" when they Whirlwind dragons into oblivion, so I understand why people don't like them in PoE much (fighters), but people also kinda give up and run cookie cutter builds, 1 tank, 5 girls guns, whereas you can safely give Eder and Estoc or something and he will do ~70k damage per playthrough easily while still facetanking 5 mobs at a time by packing an average of 90 deflection and 100 in all defences. It is pretty powerful, even if not flashy. Which can be said about many classes in the game really, like Rangers or even Wizards.

Edited April 25, 2015 by Shadenuat