Journalism and Bias in the Gaming Industry

[Fighter]

I don't see the connection. Pointing out that some people act ridiculously and targeting specific people on twitter is not the same thing.

 

I don't see how you think you're doing something different just because you didn't bring a specific example.

[Sakai]

that's not what a good interviewer does

Some think differently. https://twitter.com/redlianak/status/591704075630223362 I think i'll agree with Liana on this one. 

[Fighter]

So Vox Day gave an interview. And many people have done what some suggested, that is disassociate with him. Lets see if that prevents people from using him to smear everyone. Who am I kidding, we know the answer.

[Sakai]

I don't see how you think you're doing something different just because you didn't bring a specific example.

Well first of all, personal attacks are different to simply chatting on some forum on the interenet. I think this is fairly obvious. But that was not the point of our discussion. The point was that some people believe that mockery is the one and only answer to problems. That you should mock people untill they bend the knee. And that i disagree with. 

[Zoraptor]

Yeah, it's the same thing, just from the opposite direction. Which is why it's dangerous to go the "don't make fun of people/ don't quote randoms" route, far too easy to end up doing exactly the same thing yourself

 

And extra yeah, Pakman plays devil's advocate and it is what a good interviewer should do. Getting peeved that he does it 'against' GG is childish to the extreme, you can't ask for good journalism then complain when it's applied to your side; that's both hypocritical and juvenile.

 

But this [paid mods] has nothing to do with corruption in games media.

 

I couldn't care (much) less about corruption in games media so I'm a bit biased, but the paid mod issue is perfectly relevant when seen as part of a general consumer revolt, same as charging for patches, buggy releases and other crappy practices would be. The general GGer likes gaming and doesn't want it to be changed arbitrarily for the benefit of other parties whether they be rainbow haired 'progressives' pushing an agenda or monopolistic corporates pushing their profit margins.

[Blarghagh]

Yeah, he needled the anti-gg people constantly as well, probably even worse.

[Fighter]

I will contend that mockery and "personal attacks" (and I'm not sorry for laughing at many of those zealots) have served a purpose. It's only now that people are beginning to say "this happens on both sides".

 

The original narrative wasn't like that at all. GG were the harassing hordes and all the feminists and self-proclaimed progressives were the radiant flowers staying strong against the onslaught. GG was held to a collective responsibility standard and saddled with the impossible task of policing twitter hordes. Putting the hypocrisy on display has at least made some people think before they open their mouths.

[Sakai]

I will contend that mockery and "personal attacks" (and I'm not sorry for laughing at many of those zealots) have served a purpose. It's only now that people are beginning to say "this happens on both sides".

 

The original narrative wasn't like that at all. GG were the harassing hordes and all the feminists and self-proclaimed progressives were the radiant flowers staying strong against the onslaught. GG was held to a collective responsibility standard and saddled with the impossible task of policing twitter hordes. Putting the hypocrisy on display has at least made some people think before they open their mouths.

Correlation does not equals causation. 

[Fighter]

*snigger*

[Orogun01]

Yeah, he needled the anti-gg people constantly as well, probably even worse.

I think his MO is just to be the opposite view of whatever his interviewee its.

 

Anyone else get angry at TYT on that segment? I hadn't seen that one and my opinion of TYT has been lowering for a while but this took to a whole new low.

 

[Sakai]

and my opinion of TYT has been lowering for a while

Why?

[Longknife]

 

But this [paid mods] has nothing to do with corruption in games media.

 

I couldn't care (much) less about corruption in games media so I'm a bit biased, but the paid mod issue is perfectly relevant when seen as part of a general consumer revolt, same as charging for patches, buggy releases and other crappy practices would be. The general GGer likes gaming and doesn't want it to be changed arbitrarily for the benefit of other parties whether they be rainbow haired 'progressives' pushing an agenda or monopolistic corporates pushing their profit margins.

 

 

No.

 

First I'd like to ask who has been charging for patches, because that WOULD have court case written all over it.

 

Second, it's not the same because if I were to sell you a product and you buy that product in good faith that it works and functions as intended and advertised then I charge you for a fix, that's essentially scamming. That would get me in trouble, and that's exactly what charging for patches would do. If you're wondering why software developers get away with patching and none of them ever get taken to court over a buggy release, it's because they inevitably fix them via patches, and bugs are somewhat expected with game development. Bethesda making people able to monetize their mods....?

 

Essentially what this is is Bethesda saying "excuse me sir, but your mod seems very popular and we would like to buy the rights to the mod so we can sell it as semi-"official" content of sorts, and our good friend Valve is willing to help us make that happen. Would you be willing to sell us the rights to your mod in exchange for a cut of the royalties?" People are in an uproar about this because Valve and Bethesda are strong-arming their corporate power to take the lion's share of the profit and showing little to no compassion for mod makers, and because they're leaving mod makers to fend for themselves legally, providing very little support there beyond "if someone has sold us your content claiming it as their own, contact us and let us know and we'll help you out" instead of trying to take pretentative measures on behalf of the modders to begin with; they're catching problems after they arise, not in advance.

 

  But what they're doing is 100% legally sound, and you know why they're strong-arming the deal? Because they know that not you nor anyone else is about to boycott Steam or Bethesda games in response over modders getting only a 25% cut. They've (Valve) been offering 25% as a cut for a long time now for their own games.

 

 

It's a case where I understand the frustration, but there's absolutely nothing wrong or illegal being done here, and I definitely do not believe we'll see a successful boycott of Valve or Bethesda, so I see no purpose in wasting time on this.

 

 

 

 

and my opinion of TYT has been lowering for a while

Why?

 

 

 

I'm in the same boat. I have not watched the interview causing the outrage yet (which is Pakman's content anyways, and he's only an affiliate to TYT, who I've got no problems with), but I used to watch TYT as one of my major sources of news years ago. Over the past year or so I've become less interested in them because they began doing the same things they used to criticize others for: misleading titles, sensationalization of stories, and one thing was their channel was always plagued with troll commentators claiming they turn everything into a race or gender issue.....and that used to be trolling. Over time, it sorta became true, and I got annoyed that in ANY story, they'd attempt a racial spin on it whether appropriate or not. They did a ton of that after Ferguson so I just lost interest and stopped watching regularly. No idea if they're still doing it.

Edited April 25, 2015 by Longknife

[Orogun01]

 

and my opinion of TYT has been lowering for a while

Why?

 

I'm growing to hate liberal pundits because they have become such caricatures of themselves. I can't really think of one that's not smug, arrogant, engages in double think and generally fails to live by the ideals they promote when it counts. It seems the liberal pundit tv formulas is to arrogantly declare oneself into the intellectual/moral high ground by shaming the opposition for their views. They won't even refute them with a statement of why they are wrong they just act like they're right and if you don't get it there is something wrong with you.

[Longknife]

 

 

and my opinion of TYT has been lowering for a while

Why?

 

I'm growing to hate liberal pundits because they have become such caricatures of themselves. I can't really think of one that's not smug, arrogant, engages in double think and generally fails to live by the ideals they promote when it counts. It seems the liberal pundit tv formulas is to arrogantly declare oneself into the intellectual/moral high ground by shaming the opposition for their views. They won't even refute them with a statement of why they are wrong they just act like they're right and if you don't get it there is something wrong with you.

 

 

 

This is also a very good point. TYT went from a stance of calmly examining the facts to "here's a story and here's our opinion on it." I don't watch the news to be fed an opinion. They used to highlight how Fox with it's Talking Points memos on the screen are essentially propaganda (they totally are) and how it kinda forces it's opinions on you in a deceptive way, and now TYT essentially does the same. They read you a story briefly, and then they feed you the opinion they want you to follow. Cenk can still do very good solo work from time to time where he cites facts as to why an issue is a big deal or why something should be done, but Ana for example by comparison just provides reactions and nothing but, and Cenk often does the same when not working alone, sadly.

[Meshugger]

Well, i'm a bit drunk atm...quite drunk actually, but i will say this: When you stand for truth, beauty and against tyranny in the minds of men, you will not use moderation in the pursuit of such justice. There is no dialogue, No. Only attack and more attack on the authoritarian, totalitarian control freaks that only judge you because of your skin, sex, imaginary privilege and for having the audacity to judge people by their character.

 

Ridicule them until you hear the bells ring of freedom. VINCIT OMNIA VERITAS.

 

//salute

[Longknife]

Well, i'm a bit drunk atm...quite drunk actually, but i will say this: When you stand for truth, beauty and against tyranny in the minds of men, you will not use moderation in the pursuit of such justice. There is no dialogue, No.

 

The day when there is no time for dialog and discussion is the day when we as the human race have already lost.

[Sakai]

Where do you get all of this? I watched TYT for about 2 years now, and they haven't changed in any way at all. No offence, but i feel like you simply don't like their opinions rather than anything else. And TYT never was a news show. They're an entertainment network. 

Edited April 25, 2015 by Sakai

[Longknife]

Where do you get all of this? I watched TYT for about 2 years now, and they haven't changed in any way at all. No offence, but i feel like you simply don't like their opinions rather than anything else. And TYT never was a news show. They're an entertainment network. 

 

The same could be said of the Daily Show, and yet it's often used as a news source. Firstly, I wonder if Cenk would agree with you that it's an entertainment network, and secondly, regardless of his answer, they are fully within their right to be more entertainment than news or vice versa, but I am also fully within my right to prefer more news than entertainment and stop watching when it comes to that.

 

As for examples....? Man this is something that stems back to like a year ago, so I'm afraid I don't remember concrete examples. I will say however that I've been subscribed since 2008 or so, and the TYT you see now is the TYT I initially subscribed to. They're similar, but back then there was more focus on, for example, corrupt politics. Now? I just checked their channel as an example:

 

 

 

I have absolutely nothing against such stories and it's important to discuss them, but sadly these kinds of stories aptly sum up TYT very well lately. What do they advertise and sell more? The reactionary stories where there's clear reason to be outraged and the stories that make people angry almost immediately. Again these are fine, but I remember the TYT that had both these and the stories that reported on how a major corporation might take taxpayers for a ride by finding a way to get the government to pay them to do nothing but move entire warehouses of aluminum back and forth with no goal or reasoning behind it whatsoever.

 

 

Sure enough, look through their headlines now:

 

"Want a Bentley? Bomb Yemen!"

"Talk show told Muslim women to stay out of sight"

"Popeye's offers pregnant woman her job back"

"Pizza-wielding robot saves man from suicide"

"Photo of mom breastfeeding on the toilet goes viral"

"SHOCKING responses when Homeless man tries to GIVE out money"

"Students throw anti-gay day protest on campus"

"Why did Porn hub send a new laptop to this guy?"

 

 

What do these have in common? They're reactionary and click-bait-y. What I'm saying is that these stories are easy. The hard stories are the ones that require actual journalism and investigation. Yknow, the ones where they expose financial ties or where Cenk or Steve Oh explain the ramnifications a law could have from their more educated perspectives. Sadly, such stories are in the vast minority now.

  I am not saying they shouldn't cover the kinds of stories they cover now at all, I'm merely saying they're getting lazy and taking the easy route. They're picking on easy targets, not the difficult ones, and it's making them come off as gossipy and as rebellious young kids (aka work I'd expect from someone my age at 26, where cynicism and criticism is offered, but actual work is not) rather than serious pundits worth my time.

Edited April 25, 2015 by Longknife

[Meshugger]

 

Well, i'm a bit drunk atm...quite drunk actually, but i will say this: When you stand for truth, beauty and against tyranny in the minds of men, you will not use moderation in the pursuit of such justice. There is no dialogue, No.

 

The day when there is no time for dialog and discussion is the day when we as the human race have already lost.

 

 

How can you have dialogue with someone that wishes to erase dialogue to begin with? Compromise with only semi-dialogue put in the hands of arbiters that decide how narrow the narrative should be? Sounds like poison to the mind...damn, a few bottles of whiskey with friends really makes your mind spin.

 

No, when you are right there is no debate on how to make it kinda-right. Of course i can be wrong about being right, maybe the chains didn't break mans freedom but rather they sustained him and now he wonders forever with the consequenses of this action.

 

Good night!

[Longknife]

 

 

Well, i'm a bit drunk atm...quite drunk actually, but i will say this: When you stand for truth, beauty and against tyranny in the minds of men, you will not use moderation in the pursuit of such justice. There is no dialogue, No.

 

The day when there is no time for dialog and discussion is the day when we as the human race have already lost.

 

 

How can you have dialogue with someone that wishes to erase dialogue to begin with? Compromise with only semi-dialogue put in the hands of arbiters that decide how narrow the narrative should be? Sounds like poison to the mind...damn, a few bottles of whiskey with friends really makes your mind spin.

 

The issue is that from what I'm seeing and in my humble opinion, GamerGate supporters are blurring the lines and refusing dialog with those who are very much capable of having dialog, mistaking everyone to be as reluctant to debate as SJWs. You can't let that kinda stuff jade you out and make you stop trying entirely. Hell, I'd still periodically attempt dialog with SJWs or people who would support folks like Anita or Gawker, because I believe dialog is how I can best show them how they're mistaken. If they refuse to speak or listen, that's too bad, but that doesn't mean I should give up on trying, ESPECIALLY when the result is that I'm giving up on trying with everyone instead of just with those who dodged dialog to begin with.

 

Case and point: this Pakman interview. I'm watching it now but I've heard Sommers is accusing him of taking something she said out of context, and GamerGate is talking trash about Pakman for it. Whether he is guilty or not (no idea, not finished with the interview), this IS a man you attempt dialog with. By all means call him out on it, but these idiots ready to go from "Pakman is a great journalist" to "burn him at the stake" in 30 seconds flat need to calm the hell down.

Edited April 25, 2015 by Longknife

[Sakai]

Maybe the problem is not that they're lazy, but that there's simply not much to talk about? 

[Longknife]

Maybe the problem is not that they're lazy, but that there's simply not much to talk about? 

 

[Zoraptor]

No.

Yes.

 

:smug:

 

First I'd like to ask who has been charging for patches, because that WOULD have court case written all over it.

It wouldn't, you don't have a leg to stand on legally- though this is peripheral and was used primarily as a hypothetical. But, Paradox used to cancel support for base games when they released paid for expansions, for example, so it definitely has happened, and there is no legal recourse for it.

 

Second, it's not the same because if I were to sell you a product and you buy that product in good faith that it works and functions as intended and advertised then I charge you for a fix, that's essentially scamming. That would get me in trouble, and that's exactly what charging for patches would do. If you're wondering why software developers get away with patching and none of them ever get taken to court over a buggy release, it's because they inevitably fix them via patches, and bugs are somewhat expected with game development. Bethesda making people able to monetize their mods....?

 

Really? That's... startlingly naive, to be frank. Bethesda's base UI is rubbish, they have no incentive to fix it themselves if they can sell an improved UI for $10 a pop; it actively makes it against their interests to fix things like that. As for games always getting fixed- I don't know where to start, that's not even closely related to actual reality (eg Spacebase DF9, dozens upon dozens of Early Access scams etc). Buggy games get abandoned all the time because you don't have legal recourse, Valve excludes Class Action as part of their SSA, makes it near impossible to get refunds and good luck getting anyone to go small claims court or equivalent to get back 20-40$. Their SSA is about the most consumer unfriendly document anywhere- Origin's, for example, is positively benign in comparison, let alone GOG's.

 

Essentially what this is is Bethesda saying "excuse me sir, but your mod seems very popular and we would like to buy the rights [..] instead of trying to take pretentative measures on behalf of the modders to begin with; they're catching problems after they arise, not in advance.

 

Read their EULA- they claim ownership of all mods anyway, they aren't 'asking' or 'buying' anything. That clause is legally dubious, to say the least, so they aren't trying to enforce it actively- since they would lose, it's mostly a hedge against similarity/ derivative based copyright claims- but it is there. And it opens the way to them compelling people to sell mods, or trying to outright seize them, or forcing mods to go workshop only. It is, quite simply, an abysmal idea practically even if the basic idea that modders be rewarded is theoretically a very good one.

 

As for the last, they have an active interest in not catching problems related to charged mods. They don't get cash for free ones or ones hosted on Nexus, after all, only for those monetised on Workshop. And again, what legal recourse is a free mod maker going to take against Valve? Again, that's very naive.

 

But what they're doing is 100% legally sound, and you know why they're strong-arming the deal? Because they know that not you nor anyone else is about to boycott Steam or Bethesda games in response over modders getting only a 25% cut. They've (Valve) been offering 25% as a cut for a long time now for their own games.

 

Lol. You might want to read the general gaming forum some time, I don't use steam at all and never will. But plenty of people who do use it are very upset about this.

 

It's a case where I understand the frustration, but there's absolutely nothing wrong or illegal being done here, and I definitely do not believe we'll see a successful boycott of Valve or Bethesda, so I see no purpose in wasting time on this.

Well, you're not arbiter of what is relevant or not and it is clear that many do consider it relevant. There will be plenty of illegal stuff and plenty of unethical stuff done there, people are already monetising other people's mods which is copyright infringement, with Valve and Bethesda benefitting. Steam's support is rubbish and their curation is rubbish, those are the two things that are essential for this system to work, plus it's a further attempt to put even more of PC gaming behind steam's walled garden. Plus, the two parties that have contributed least to the mod by far get more of a cut than the person who actually made it.

 

I couldn't care less if something is successful or if other people boycott or not. You can only do what you can do, don't do anything though and you'll always fail. Apathy is Death, to quote a famous computer game.

[Sakai]

 

Maybe the problem is not that they're lazy, but that there's simply not much to talk about? 

 

 

They made hundreds of videos about corruption. Do you want them to just repeat the same things over and over? They're still a business, so they have to somehow pay for the whole thing, and if they did that their views would probably drop rapidly. Also, with Wolf-PAC, isn't it a bit silly accusing them of being reactionaries?

 

 

How can you have dialogue with someone that wishes to erase dialogue to begin with? 

Btw, i guess you'd put Wu in the same category, but she did talk Brad Wardell. So maybe it's not as black and white?

Edited April 25, 2015 by Sakai

[Gaunt]

https://youtu.be/AhDPFJENqBc  my problem  its a interview over her views of feminism,  rape culture, mra wheres GG if you are saying its related to gg come out and openly say it , This gg interview where exacly?