Lashes all go against 25% of DR, no matter what the lash damage is.

[Matt516]

So a 10% or a 40% lash will go up against 25% of the appropriate DR, instead of 10%/40%. This has got to be a bug, right?

[Guest Matt Sheets]

 

 

 

All proc damage is calculated using 1/4 of the enemy's corresponding DR.

 

Proc damage refers to Lashes, Flames of Devotion, Wildstrike, etc.

 

Thanks for the response... but.. it sounds like you're saying that abilities like Lightning Strikes (10% of damage vs 25% of DR) are intended to be utterly worthless. Is that true? I'm sorry... that just doesn't make sense..

 

 

I'm just stating how it's being calculated.

 

Lightning Strikes is already in our database and is being addressed in a future patch to give it a bump.

 

 

Oh gotcha. I thought you were saying that was intended behavior. So just to clarify - are procs supposed to go up against 25% of DR no matter what the proc damage % is, or are they supposed to go up against whatever the corresponding % of DR is for the proc damage %?

 

Either way, good to hear Lightning Strikes is being addressed, I suppose.

 

 

Yes, it's intended for proc damage to be calculated against 1/4 of the DR.

 

Most proc damage is set to 25% or above.  Lightning Strikes is being resolved soon, but torches were never supposed to be a "real" weapon and thus have lower damage than a club and less proc amount than a standard lash.

 

Turning Wheel starts off a small % but if you keep the wound count high and the monk alive, you'll start hitting pretty well.

[peddroelm]

edit title to " ..no matter what lash percent is"

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

I thought all lashes were 25%? Does this account for different DT values as well?

[peddroelm]

..and think about what you're asking for

 

NERF flames of devotion !! Really ?!? paladin too OP now. Since when ?

NERF marked prey !!  Ranges abuse has got to stop ! ( double its casting time again while you're at it to make sure none ever picks it again )

NERF Torments Reach & Turning Wheel (mostly nerf)  That will teach those pesky Monks !

NERF NERF !!!

 

For a questionable buff to Lightning Strike that would still be a ****ty ability even against 10% lightning DR  (its problems lie mostly elsewhere - 2 perks for less than 10% extra damage that cost wounds and is has limited duration   )  ..

Edited April 21, 2015 by peddroelm

[peddroelm]

I thought all lashes were 25%? Does this account for different DT values as well?

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/77154-does-secondary-elemental-damage-ignore-elemental-damage-reduction/?do=findComment&comment=1669704

[Luckmann]

Yeah, this pretty much has to be a bug.

 

..and think about what you're asking for

 

NERF flames of devotion !! Really ?!? paladin too OP now. Since when ?

NERF marked prey !!  Ranges abuse has got to stop ! ( double its casting time again while you're at it to make sure none ever picks it again )

NERF Torments Reach & Turning Wheel (mostly nerf)  That will teach those pesky Monks !

NERF NERF !!!

 For a questionable buff to Lightning Strike that would still be a ****ty ability even against 10% lightning DR  (its problems lie mostly elsewhere - 2 perks for less than 10% extra damage that cost wounds and is has limited duration   )  ..

It's not about asking for nerfs, it's about asking for consistent game mechanics that you don't have to make guesses on how they're supposed to work. If abilities are adversely affected by fixing this, they should be appropriately buffed to compensate.

 

I thought all lashes were 25%? Does this account for different DT values as well?

All the Enchanted Lashes you can make yourself are 25%, but there are items with Lashes of 10% (like Torch), and several abilities uses the Lash mechanics (such as Paladin's Flames of Devotion).

[peddroelm]

Yeah, this pretty much has to be a bug.

...

It's not about asking for nerfs, it's about asking for consistent game mechanics that you don't have to make guesses on how they're supposed to work. If abilities are adversely affected by fixing this, they should be appropriately buffed to compensate.

 

 

If anything, it works extremely consistently they way it is now .. Every single,separate lash component percent damage goes against 25% of the appropriate target DR ...Can't get more consistent than that ..

Edited April 21, 2015 by peddroelm

[Luckmann]

 

Yeah, this pretty much has to be a bug.

 

...

It's not about asking for nerfs, it's about asking for consistent game mechanics that you don't have to make guesses on how they're supposed to work. If abilities are adversely affected by fixing this, they should be appropriately buffed to compensate.

 

 

 

 

If anything, it works extremely consistently they way it is now .. Every single,separate lash component percent damage goes against 25% of the appropriate target DR ...Can't get more consistent than that ..

 

Yeah, no, that's not consistency, that's retardation. Consistency does not imply autism.

[peddroelm]

 

 

Yeah, this pretty much has to be a bug.

 

...

It's not about asking for nerfs, it's about asking for consistent game mechanics that you don't have to make guesses on how they're supposed to work. If abilities are adversely affected by fixing this, they should be appropriately buffed to compensate.

 

 

 

If anything, it works extremely consistently they way it is now .. Every single,separate lash component percent damage goes against 25% of the appropriate target DR ...Can't get more consistent than that ..

 

Yeah, no, that's not consistency, that's retardation. Consistency does not imply autism.

 

Perhaps English is not your native language . (it isn't mine either)

 

consistent

    adjective con·sis·tent \kən-ˈsis-tənt\

: always acting or behaving in the same way

[Guest Matt Sheets]

All proc damage is calculated using 1/4 of the enemy's corresponding DR.

 

Proc damage refers to Lashes, Flames of Devotion, Wildstrike, etc.

[Emptiness]

Perhaps English is not your native language . (it isn't mine either)

 

consistent

    adjective con·sis·tent \kən-ˈsis-tənt\

: always acting or behaving in the same way

 

 

You're doing nothing to help this discussion.  Also, you are misinterpreting the words you are quoting.

 

Yes, there is consistency in always applying 25% of the appropriate DR to all lash damage.  There is also inconsistency in it, in that the percentage of damage reduction applied to lash damage does not scale based on the percentage of damage the lash does.  That is the inconsistency that this thread was created to discuss.  So, while you are correct that there is also a consistency that exists, it is proximal to but not the same as the actual problem.

[Emptiness]

All proc damage is calculated using 1/4 of the enemy's corresponding DR.

 

Proc damage refers to Lashes, Flames of Devotion, Wildstrike, etc.

 

That is exactly the problem, yes.  If the proc damage is less than 25% of the base damage then it is being compared to a disproportionately large amount of DR (and if the proc damage is more than 25% then it is being compared to a disproportionately small amount of DR).

Edited April 21, 2015 by Emptiness

[peddroelm]

 

Perhaps English is not your native language . (it isn't mine either)

 

consistent

    adjective con·sis·tent \kən-ˈsis-tənt\

: always acting or behaving in the same way

 

 

You're doing nothing to help this discussion.  Also, you are misinterpreting the words you are quoting.

 

Yes, there is consistency in always applying 25% of the appropriate DR to all lash damage.  There is also inconsistency in it, in that the percentage of damage reduction applied to lash damage does not scale based on the percentage of damage the lash does.  That is the inconsistency that this thread was created to discuss.  So, while you are correct that there is also a consistency that exists, it is proximal to but not the same as the actual problem.

 

Of all the actual bugs that exist in this game, why focus on Nerfing an ability (and (arguable weak) classes that make use of it) for the sake of making it  "be more consistent in another, arbitrary way" ..  Developer time is limited.. Wouldn't you rather have them work on stuff that is truly broken ? 

 

You  "fix" this (keep in mind its currently "working as designed"  - mind the dev post in thread) and then you must re-balance a few classes and abilities around it.. Priorities ..  

Edited April 21, 2015 by peddroelm

[Luckmann]

 

 

Perhaps English is not your native language . (it isn't mine either)

 

consistent

    adjective con·sis·tent \kən-ˈsis-tənt\

: always acting or behaving in the same way

 

 

You're doing nothing to help this discussion.  Also, you are misinterpreting the words you are quoting.

 

Yes, there is consistency in always applying 25% of the appropriate DR to all lash damage.  There is also inconsistency in it, in that the percentage of damage reduction applied to lash damage does not scale based on the percentage of damage the lash does.  That is the inconsistency that this thread was created to discuss.  So, while you are correct that there is also a consistency that exists, it is proximal to but not the same as the actual problem.

 

Of all the actual bugs that exist in this game, why focus on Nerfing an ability (and (arguable weak) classes that make use of it) for the sake of making it  "be more consistent in another, arbitrary way" ..  Developer time is limited.. Wouldn't you rather have them work on stuff that is truly broken ? 

 

You  "fix" this (keep in mind its currently "working as designed"  - mind the dev post in thread) and then you must re-balance a few classes and abilities around it.. Priorities ..  

 

 

You're too caught up in "nerfing", which is just ridiculous. The reason people want to see it fixed is not because of balance. Fixing a systemic issue is not the same as nerfing something. In the capacity that this would nerf things, those things could be buffed to compensate. The system is already incredibly obtuse and you basically have to guess what happens when you do things.

 

Working as designed does not imply designed well, but furthermore, he did not say that it works as intended, he explained how it currently works. But we know how it currently works (although it's nice to have it confirmed). We're just saying that it's stupid.

 

And it's not a contest as to what is most broken or not. It's about discussing what can be improved and how, and why, not when. We have absolutely zero influence on how the developers prioritize. When I find a bug, should I not report that bug, thinking "Oh, I better not report it, or they may not fix this other thing I really want them to fix first"? Of course not. I've wanted them to fix the balance issues with the Attributes since well before Day 1, should we not discuss other things until then?

 

Don't be ridiculous.

[Emptiness]

Of all the actual bugs that exist in this game, why focus on Nerfing an ability (and (arguable weak) classes that make use of it) for the sake of making it  "be more consistent in another, arbitrary way" ..  Developer time is limited.. Wouldn't you rather have them work on stuff that is truly broken ? 

 

You  "fix" this (keep in mind its currently "working as designed"  - mind the dev post in thread) and then you must re-balance a few classes and abilities around it.. Priorities ..

 

I'm here discussing (what I consider to be) a design flaw, not telling developers how to use their time or making decisions about how Obsidian prioritizes its workflow.  And yes, I clearly see the Dev response; I did quote it, after all, just above your post.

 

I don't believe that changing the way DR vs added damage based on a percentage of base damage is calculated would imbalance the game so much that it would require classes and abilities to be rebalanced around it, as you claim it would.  It is true that certain abilities of certain classes would be negatively impacted by the change, but there are certain abilities of certain classes that are being negatively impacted by the current system.  From the perspective of those classes, there is a reason to question whether this design decision is appropriate.

 

I'm not going to try to convince you of that, however, because looking at your posts in this thread it is clear that you are just here to argue for the sake of argument.

Edited April 21, 2015 by Emptiness

[kmbogd]

All proc damage is calculated using 1/4 of the enemy's corresponding DR.

 

Proc damage refers to Lashes, Flames of Devotion, Wildstrike, etc.

 

Then why is Flames of Devotion with Intense Flames using 1/2 of the enemy's fire DR?

[peddroelm]

 

All proc damage is calculated using 1/4 of the enemy's corresponding DR.

 

Proc damage refers to Lashes, Flames of Devotion, Wildstrike, etc.

 

Then why is Flames of Devotion with Intense Flames using 1/2 of the enemy's fire DR?

 

don't think it does .. A being FoD fire damage, B being IF fire damage .. 

 

A - 0.25 * FireDR + B -0.25 * FireDR = A + B - 0.5 * FireDR // they only show the result (total fire damage past DR) .. No contradiction ..

 

Would need debugger break-point testing to check if damage is subtracted twice or once in this case (same end result either way )..

Edited April 21, 2015 by peddroelm

[Elerond]

It technically does 2 attacks  one with 50% of damage against 25% of DR and one with 25% of damage against 25% DR. Which will produce same result as 75% of damage against 50%, except in cases of high DR compared to damage.

 

10 damage against DR4 would produce following 10*0.5-4*0.25 = 4 | 10*0.25 - 4 * 0.25 = 1.5 total 5.5   == 10*0.75 - 4*0.50   = 5.5

Against DR 10 result would be 10*0.5-10*0.25 = 2.5 | 10*0.25 - 10 * 0.25 = 0  Total 2.5  == 10*0.75 - 10*0.50   = 5.0

Against DR 12 result would be 10*0.5-12*0.25 = 2 | 10*0.25 - 12 * 0.25 = -0.5  Total 2  == 10*0.75 - 12*0.50   = 1.5

 

Test in game show that damage from every lash is calculated separately

Test target has DR 21 against pierce and DR 16 against burn
Hit roll graze
Graze was done with Lead Spitter (DR bypass 7) with burning lash and Flames of devotion + intense flames - done by paladin
Original Damage: 9.1
Damage after DR: 1.8 [Min]
Burn damage: 0.5 (100% damage - 75% DR would produce 9.1 - 16*0.75 = -2.9, but actually there are three lash hits, which do with Flames of Devotion 9.1*0.5 - 16 *0.25 = 4.55 - 4 = 0.55 |  with Intense Flames 9.1 * 0.25 - 16 * 0.25 = 2.275 - 4 = -1.725 | with Burning Lash 9.1 * 0.25 - 16 * 0.25 = 2.275 - 4 = -1.725 | Total 0.55 damage which is rounded as 0.5 in combat log.

Edited April 21, 2015 by Elerond

[Matt516]

All proc damage is calculated using 1/4 of the enemy's corresponding DR.

 

Proc damage refers to Lashes, Flames of Devotion, Wildstrike, etc.

 

Thanks for the response... but.. it sounds like you're saying that abilities like Lightning Strikes (10% of damage vs 25% of DR) are intended to be utterly worthless. Is that true? I'm sorry... that just doesn't make sense..

Edited April 21, 2015 by Matt516

[peddroelm]

 

All proc damage is calculated using 1/4 of the enemy's corresponding DR.

 

Proc damage refers to Lashes, Flames of Devotion, Wildstrike, etc.

 

So... are abilities like Lightning Strikes (10% of damage vs 25% of DR) intended to be utterly worthless? I'm sorry... that just doesn't make sense..

 

You should make a thread complaining about how much that ability sucks (trust me vs 10% lightning DR won't help it suck any less) ..It has other issues ..  ( minor damage buff that costs wounds and lasts limited amounts of time ) .. Even vs 0% enemy lightning DR and would still be next to worthless ..

Edited April 21, 2015 by peddroelm

[kmbogd]

It technically does 2 attacks  one with 50% of damage against 25% of DR and one with 25% of damage against 25% DR. Which will produce same result as 75% of damage against 50%, except in cases of high DR compared to damage.

 

10 damage against DR4 would produce following 10*0.5-4*0.25 = 4 | 10*0.25 - 4 * 0.25 = 1.5 total 5.5   == 10*0.75 - 4*0.50   = 5.5

Against DR 10 result would be 10*0.5-10*0.25 = 2.5 | 10*0.25 - 10 * 0.25 = 0  Total 2.5  == 10*0.75 - 10*0.50   = 5.0

Against DR 12 result would be 10*0.5-12*0.25 = 2 | 10*0.25 - 12 * 0.25 = -0.5  Total 2  == 10*0.75 - 12*0.50   = 1.5

 

Test in game show that damage from every lash is calculated separately

Test target has DR 21 against pierce and DR 16 against burn

Hit roll graze

Graze was done with Lead Spitter (DR bypass 7) with burning lash and Flames of devotion + intense flames - done by paladin

Original Damage: 9.1

Damage after DR: 1.8 [Min]

Burn damage: 0.5 (100% damage - 75% DR would produce 9.1 - 16*0.75 = -2.9, but actually there are three lash hits, which do with Flames of Devotion 9.1*0.5 - 16 *0.25 = 4.55 - 4 = 0.55 |  with Intense Flames 9.1 * 0.25 - 16 * 0.25 = 2.275 - 4 = -1.725 | with Burning Lash 9.1 * 0.25 - 16 * 0.25 = 2.275 - 4 = -1.725 | Total 0.55 damage which is rounded as 0.5 in combat log.

 

I am not contradicting what you say about the current implementation, but it "technically" is one attack that does extra fire damage and not 3 attacks. Also the description of intense flames says that it "improves". In my opinion, this example contradicts the verbatim statement of the developer.

 

In any case, I think that I'm not the only one that is saying that the current secondary damage mechanics is really weird. On the other hand, it's so easy to fix it...

Edited April 21, 2015 by kmbogd

[Guest Matt Sheets]

 

All proc damage is calculated using 1/4 of the enemy's corresponding DR.

 

Proc damage refers to Lashes, Flames of Devotion, Wildstrike, etc.

 

Thanks for the response... but.. it sounds like you're saying that abilities like Lightning Strikes (10% of damage vs 25% of DR) are intended to be utterly worthless. Is that true? I'm sorry... that just doesn't make sense..

 

 

I'm just stating how it's being calculated.

 

Lightning Strikes is already in our database and is being addressed in a future patch to give it a bump.

[Matt516]

 

 

All proc damage is calculated using 1/4 of the enemy's corresponding DR.

 

Proc damage refers to Lashes, Flames of Devotion, Wildstrike, etc.

 

Thanks for the response... but.. it sounds like you're saying that abilities like Lightning Strikes (10% of damage vs 25% of DR) are intended to be utterly worthless. Is that true? I'm sorry... that just doesn't make sense..

 

 

I'm just stating how it's being calculated.

 

Lightning Strikes is already in our database and is being addressed in a future patch to give it a bump.

 

 

Oh gotcha. I thought you were saying that was intended behavior. So just to clarify - are procs supposed to go up against 25% of DR no matter what the proc damage % is, or are they supposed to go up against whatever the corresponding % of DR is for the proc damage %?

 

Either way, good to hear Lightning Strikes is being addressed, I suppose.

[Matt516]

 

 

 

 

All proc damage is calculated using 1/4 of the enemy's corresponding DR.

 

Proc damage refers to Lashes, Flames of Devotion, Wildstrike, etc.

 

Thanks for the response... but.. it sounds like you're saying that abilities like Lightning Strikes (10% of damage vs 25% of DR) are intended to be utterly worthless. Is that true? I'm sorry... that just doesn't make sense..

 

 

I'm just stating how it's being calculated.

 

Lightning Strikes is already in our database and is being addressed in a future patch to give it a bump.

 

 

Oh gotcha. I thought you were saying that was intended behavior. So just to clarify - are procs supposed to go up against 25% of DR no matter what the proc damage % is, or are they supposed to go up against whatever the corresponding % of DR is for the proc damage %?

 

Either way, good to hear Lightning Strikes is being addressed, I suppose.

 

 

Yes, it's intended for proc damage to be calculated against 1/4 of the DR.

 

Most proc damage is set to 25% or above.  Lightning Strikes is being resolved soon, but torches were never supposed to be a "real" weapon and thus have lower damage than a club and less proc amount than a standard lash.

 

Turning Wheel starts off a small % but if you keep the wound count high and the monk alive, you'll start hitting pretty well.

 

 

Gotcha. That's interesting. Somewhat unintuitive (to me at least), but I suppose I can see the point in it. Really makes higher lash values feel "special", I guess.

 

Good to hear Lightning Strikes is getting a bump. Thanks for the information!

[Emptiness]

To me it is more than unintuitive, it is flawed.

 

Imagine, for example, that you had a crushing weapon that was enchanted with Crushing Lash.  That weapon would deal 125% crushing damage vs 125% of the target's crush damage reduction.  In other words the magic on your weapon is making your target's damage reduction more effective.  Now, in the game you can't apply Crushing Lash yourself, and I don't think there are any crushing weapons that have it (but it does exist)...the example is just for illustration purposes.  The same thing is happening when you apply one of the elemental lashes to a weapon; the magic is increasing the damage that your weapon deals and also increasing the effectiveness of the target's damage reduction by a corresponding amount.

 

This makes about as much sense as if Might not only increased the damage you deal but also increased the target's damage reduction by a corresponding amount.  Or if enchantments on armor that increased damage reduction also increased the enemy damage done by a corresponding amount.

 

It is possible to calculate damage reduction versus more than one type of damage in such a way that having multiple sources of damage on one attack does not improve the target's relative damage reduction.  I don't see any advantage to the current system, so I'd prefer a change...but maybe I'm missing something.  Is there some reason for or advantage to having a damage enchantment on a weapon that also causes the target's relative damage reduction to increase?