Are Paladins really not that bad?

[Jimmysdabestcop]

Honestly don't understand this class at all. Especially as an NPC. If NPC's are ever meant to get the F&C bonus. Then a NPC Pally has no chance to be a better attack then a fighter, a better defender then a fighter or a better support chjaracter as a priest or chanter.

 

What sucks is this is a pseudo Paladin class. Not really a Paladin and not really a Knight. I mean you would figure Paladins are always in heavy armor so why does only the fighter get a recovery ability? And you would almost always expect to see a Pally with a 2H weapon or sword and shield. Why do they get no abilities for either of those? Could have even made the Paladin into a real "tank" class and given some kind of guard ability. Say with large shield passively take X damage from nearest party member.

 

A Paladin has always been a warrior melee class. But it gets nothing to improve speed or damage. Except to improve some lame ability that can be used Twice per encounter. So after 3 seconds of a battle a Pally has no offensive abilties to use or even as Passives.

 

I mean you can even turn Durance into a top A defender. Frontline melee warrior. Now he will only really inflict damage from spells. But he can support your other 2 melee party members. Cast his offensive spells, his buffs/debuffs, heals, plus if you boost his mechanics his seal/trap spells are amazing the entire game. And a player created NPC Priest can actually even do melee damage.

 

Most of your melee type classes you can sub out for one another. Same thing for range and even casters. Those classes are actually balanced when compared to each other for the most part. I just don't ever see why anyone would sub a Pally in for any other frontline class. Except for RP reasons.

 

O

[Raven Darkholme]

You people always trolling about paladin being only as good a defender as fighter. Pally doesn't get affected by fear auras he doesn't care for being charmed, his saves are 27 points higher, his def 13 points higher than fighter, I mean, you saying endurance regen covers the same defensive effect, really?

[Jimmysdabestcop]

You people always trolling about paladin being only as good a defender as fighter. Pally doesn't get affected by fear auras he doesn't care for being charmed, his saves are 27 points higher, his def 13 points higher than fighter, I mean, you saying endurance regen covers the same defensive effect, really?

 

Only for the PC not NPC Paladins or adventurer created Paladins. Faith and Conviction doesn't apply. While anyone in your party can be a fighter that is the same as the PC fighter.

 

And the F&C isn't even noted in the 1.05 Patch Notes. I haven't heard any info from Dev's about it yet. And the Paladin doesn't have fear or charm immunities. He can take an ability that gives him +15 but its almost exactly like the generic talent that any class can take except the Pally class adds posion resistance in it too.

 

Plus Defender & Wary Defender give every Fighter:

 +15 defelection, +10 fortitude, +10 reflex, +10 will, +2 enemies engaged and penalty of -.2 attack speed.

 

NPC with Faith and Conviction & Deep Faith:

 +7 defelection, +15 fortitude, +15 reflex, +15 will

 

How is a Fighter Defender not better then NPC F&C?

Edited May 7, 2015 by Jimmysdabestcop

[dunehunter]

 

Honestly though, looking back at the abilities and talents that are left to work with for this theme, it doesn't appear that such a paladin would be much of a powerhouse.  Maybe decent, but nothing special, except for the possibility of just enjoying the challenge of roleplaying this sort of build in spite of its less than stellar combat power.

 

An interesting thought experiment at least, and it is playing against type. The way I would do it:

 

Goldpact Dwarf/Mowmow

 

M  21  D  18  C  10  P  10  I  7  R  12

 

1  FoD

2  Weapon Focus: Estoc

3  LoH (large self heal w/ 21 Mig)

4  2H Style

5  Sworn Enemy

6  Intense Flames

7  ZFocus

8  Enduring Flames

9  Liberating Exhort (self cleanse)

10  Greater LoH

11  Inspiring Triumph (he inspires himself after every kill for +7 Defenses)

12  Critical Focus

 

 

So active abilities would be:

 

FoD +75% damage +50% DoT  2/e

Greater LoH  1/e

Liberating Exhort 2/e

Sworn Enemy 3/r

 

Sworn Enemy is kind of a bummer as a per rest ability. Rather it was 1/e. Against high Deflection enemies, it would probably be best to let another party member hit them with a -Deflection debuff before using FoD, to ensure it connects. Dwarf would cap out at 17 Dex, so maybe an extra point in Res to help avoid random Interrupts.

 

 

Enduring flame really need some works now cause it will be reduced by DR so damage per tick are negligible.

Greater LOH seems to be a waste of talent to me, seems its benefit is bad. And Inspiring Triumph doesn't work on pal himself.

You really waste half of his talents IMO

Edited May 7, 2015 by dunehunter

[b0rsuk]

And the F&C isn't even noted in the 1.05 Patch Notes. I haven't heard any info from Dev's about it yet. And the Paladin doesn't have fear or charm immunities. He can take an ability that gives him +15 but its almost exactly like the generic talent that any class can take except the Pally class adds posion resistance in it too.

 

 

What an understatement.

1) Righteous Soul gives +15, not +10. That's 50% more already.

2) Even if it goes through, duration is reduced by 5s. 5s is a lot in PoE combat, especially that many of the powerful effects last only several seconds in the first place.

[Raven Darkholme]

 

And the F&C isn't even noted in the 1.05 Patch Notes. I haven't heard any info from Dev's about it yet. And the Paladin doesn't have fear or charm immunities. He can take an ability that gives him +15 but its almost exactly like the generic talent that any class can take except the Pally class adds posion resistance in it too.

 

What an understatement.1) Righteous Soul gives +15, not +10. That's 50% more already.2) Even if it goes through, duration is reduced by 5s. 5s is a lot in PoE combat, especially that many of the powerful effects last only several seconds in the first place.

That is exactly what I am talking about. Fear aura lasts 0.1 seconds on graze, 0.2 hit and 0.3 on crit. Best charms in the game last up to 2 seconds.

But thats the problem people haven't even played paladin and pretend to know all about them.

Edited May 7, 2015 by Raven Darkholme

[Jimmysdabestcop]

I still disagree. On 1 normal and 2 hard play throughs. I never had a problem with fear party members or confused. If I am that worried about fear I am going to drop Priest Spell for the entire party.

 

 

Now maybe if Righeous Soul was a Paladin Aurora and it helped the entire party it be cool. But I'm not having that many party members get confused anyway so the -5 sec is irrelevant.

 

Also if the Paladin Class was balanced and fun there wouldn't be 17 pages discussing why they suck. Fact.

[Raven Darkholme]

I still disagree. On 1 normal and 2 hard play throughs. I never had a problem with fear party members or confused. If I am that worried about fear I am going to drop Priest Spell for the entire party.

 

 

Now maybe if Righeous Soul was a Paladin Aurora and it helped the entire party it be cool. But I'm not having that many party members get confused anyway so the -5 sec is irrelevant.

 

Also if the Paladin Class was balanced and fun there wouldn't be 17 pages discussing why they suck. Fact.

 

On normal and on hard...

[Jimmysdabestcop]

On normal and on hard...

 

 

A game can only be balanced and tweaked/patched for normal as the first priority. Potd cannot be taken into consideration when determining if a class is balanced and/or fun to play. I would wager less than 20% of the players of PoE will play Potd. Now more forum members might play Potd then the overall audience. But it is always about the general audience while playing normal mode.

 

Example take Crusader Kings 2. It has been out for 3 has a dedicated fan base. And a large modding community. But when Paradox runs the numbers people actually playing mods compared to everyone else is extremely low. Same ting when they talk about the numbers playing on IronMan mode. Things like that might add more playthroughs for players but it won't make a majority of the general game audience to Play iron Man or potd or have mods.

 

So point talking class balance you have to base it on a normal game.

[Raven Darkholme]

 

On normal and on hard...

 

 

A game can only be balanced and tweaked/patched for normal as the first priority. Potd cannot be taken into consideration when determining if a class is balanced and/or fun to play. I would wager less than 20% of the players of PoE will play Potd. Now more forum members might play Potd then the overall audience. But it is always about the general audience while playing normal mode.

 

Example take Crusader Kings 2. It has been out for 3 has a dedicated fan base. And a large modding community. But when Paradox runs the numbers people actually playing mods compared to everyone else is extremely low. Same ting when they talk about the numbers playing on IronMan mode. Things like that might add more playthroughs for players but it won't make a majority of the general game audience to Play iron Man or potd or have mods.

 

So point talking class balance you have to base it on a normal game.

 

But the post you made before this one underlines why it's sometimes important to look at Potd. You said you never worried about fear auras, well guess what they make dragons harder to hit and PotD also increases the dragons defenses, all of a sudden the paladin doesn't look so bad.

[Jimmysdabestcop]

It is still only for just the Paladin. Priest anti fear spell is for everyone. Or you could just craft a scroll. Why would you need just the Paladin to have anti fear? You want your entire party to have it.

 

See everything a Pally has in PoE can be done either better or easier or for more party members by a different class or item.

 

PoE Paladins aren't exceptional at anything. Every other class has at least 1 aspect that they are exceptional at. Honestly can't see how some people can't see how Pallys are unbalanced or just flat out not a good class in PoE. Maybe if it was the first time you ever seen a Paladin in cRPG, ok fine. But comparing PoE pallys to any other cRPG or even P&P Paladin and then are awful. You can barely compare paladins in PoE to other classes in PoE.

 

Ok I have said enough about Pallys for at least a day or 2.

[mazeltov]

Another thing to consider is that one could play a Moon godlike and get that self healing benefit, which might arguably make taking lay on hands moot.

 

Moonlikes make a lot of things moot. Their racial in its current overpowered state makes the race a cheese option; I never use Moonlikes. After they get their inevitable nerf, maybe.

 

 

Sure mazeltov, that works on easy, normal, hard.

 

Oh, it'll 'work' on PotD too. Working, to me, is being able to roll through content. Whether a given party setup takes 15 seconds to roll through content, or 20 or 30 seconds is all the same to me, as long as the content gets cleared. A self-consciously subpar novelty build should not be taken as a comment on the DPS viability of Paladins.

 

 

Enduring flame really need some works now cause it will be reduced by DR so damage per tick are negligible.

Greater LOH seems to be a waste of talent to me, seems its benefit is bad. And Inspiring Triumph doesn't work on pal himself.

You really waste half of his talents IMO

 

Most of the Talents in a novelty build specifically designed to play to the weak points of a class will be wasted. Good point on IT though. Might as well switch that out for Righteous Soul at 11. Assuming Enduring Flames has the greatly reduced function you mention, Bleak Walker might be the better option.

[MoxyWoo]

Darcozzi is always a good option for the Inspiring (+10 accuracy) on an instant cast.

 

You could also try Blunderbuss aka Gunadin... Burning lash + Intense Flames + Flames of devotion = 100% lash effect for every pellet = lots of damage.  Think by the numbers you get like an average of 100 damage, assuming +100% dmg modifier, and penetrating shots (more so with Leadsplitter vs hard DR).  Gives you almost that rogue alpha strike feel, and can be usable starting at lower levels with the Disappointer enchanted.

 

Problem is the tightness of talents due to using things that require additional talents... Penetrating shots + Intense Flames + Inspiring + all the gunner/ranged stuff for a 2/enc ability.

[b0rsuk]

Righteous Soul also protect against Charmed and Dominated. Ever heard of that ?

[MadDemiurg]

Righteous soul would be pretty good if anyone targeted paladin with the effects it counters. It's decent solo, but it doesn't counter the most scary afflictions and it's not that it can't be replicated with some item use if needed.

[Crucis]

 

You people always trolling about paladin being only as good a defender as fighter. Pally doesn't get affected by fear auras he doesn't care for being charmed, his saves are 27 points higher, his def 13 points higher than fighter, I mean, you saying endurance regen covers the same defensive effect, really?

 

Only for the PC not NPC Paladins or adventurer created Paladins. Faith and Conviction doesn't apply. While anyone in your party can be a fighter that is the same as the PC fighter.

 

And the F&C isn't even noted in the 1.05 Patch Notes. I haven't heard any info from Dev's about it yet. And the Paladin doesn't have fear or charm immunities. He can take an ability that gives him +15 but its almost exactly like the generic talent that any class can take except the Pally class adds posion resistance in it too.

 

Plus Defender & Wary Defender give every Fighter:

 +15 defelection, +10 fortitude, +10 reflex, +10 will, +2 enemies engaged and penalty of -.2 attack speed.

 

NPC with Faith and Conviction & Deep Faith:

 +7 defelection, +15 fortitude, +15 reflex, +15 will

 

How is a Fighter Defender not better then NPC F&C?

 

 

I'm a little ignorant on some of the details here, so bear with me.

 

I realize that F&C doesn't work fully with NPC's, just don't know to what degree.  But regardless of that, the problem that any Pally is going to have with F&C bonuses is that are only maximized while the pally is abiding by his faith's favored dispositions and avoiding the disfavored ones (unless you take Untroubled Faith, thus burning one of your limited Talent choices).  OTOH, fighters aren't (pardon the pun) "troubled" by anything when they choose Defender and Wary Defender. All they have to do is turn it on and they're good to go.

 

Also, pallies aren't going to get F&C's maxed bonuses immediately no matter what.  A pally is going to have to build up his reputation and disposition scores before he can maximize his F&C bonuses.  This seems to make F&C even weaker thAn the Fighter Defender talents, which are strictly a fully on/fully off activation.

 

So yes, I don't think that anyone could honestly say that the Pally F&C is better thAn a Fighter's Defender abilites.

 

That said, let's not pretend that paladins are better than fighters either.  If someone's looking for a frontliner with maximized combat value, they're certainly not going to pick a paladin.  If they pick a paladin, it's almost certainly for other reasons.

 

[Raven Darkholme]

Wary defender is a very bad talent. Pala gets to near maxed out F+C in the beginning of Act 2 only lacking one point in one of the dispositions, being maxed in the other.

Ofc you pick pally for other reasons namely free buff to accuracy and all defenses without even doing anything. (Aura and shield)

[Crucis]

Wary defender is a very bad talent. Pala gets to near maxed out F+C in the beginning of Act 2 only lacking one point in one of the dispositions, being maxed in the other.

Ofc you pick pally for other reasons namely free buff to accuracy and all defenses without even doing anything. (Aura and shield)

 

Raven, the problem I have is that while I have the dialog tips turned on, I'm just not sure that, for example, every benevolent dialog choice adds a point to the Benevolent disposition value.  And if that's true, I don't know which ones do and which ones don't.  Of course, I suppose if one is playing a PC paladin with Honest and Diplomatic favored dispositions (for example), you can just limit yourself to picking those and only those dialog options and let the chips fall where they may.

 

Also, I have a hard time seeing how +10 to all 4 defenses (DEFL, Fort, Reflex, and Will), on top of what you get for using Defender, is a bad thing for a front line fighter.

Edited May 7, 2015 by Crucis

[Raven Darkholme]

Finishing a crucial quest dialogue with the right choice almost ever adds a point in the beginning. And yes if you want to be maxed out fast you better choose the proper option everytime until you have 3 points each, but after that its chilled.

[Jimmysdabestcop]

Finishing a crucial quest dialogue with the right choice almost ever adds a point in the beginning. And yes if you want to be maxed out fast you better choose the proper option everytime until you have 3 points each, but after that its chilled.

 

This is what I am talking about for NPC Paladins. They only get level 1 F&C. Exactly what the abilities give. Any more levels in disposition do not get applied for NPC Paladins.

 

Therefore NPC < then every other class

[b0rsuk]

Righteous soul would be pretty good if anyone targeted paladin with the effects it counters. It's decent solo, but it doesn't counter the most scary afflictions and it's not that it can't be replicated with some item use if needed.

 

Yes ? What item ? What items can be used to take care of Charmed, Dominated ? Charmed and Dominated count as the most scary afflictions.

 

If you want peace, prepare for war. No one likes to attack the strong guy. Using your logic, having a gun at home is only good when someone is attacking you. I'd rather have people in the neighborhood know I have a gun and not attack me. If they don't target the Paladin, it's because the ability is doing its job.

 

Righteous Soul is good to have on a paladin, because he can keep enemies from reaching you, and help party members. I'd rather have one of my ranged characters charmed than Eder. Paladin can heal, revive, use Liberating Exhortation. Because paladin is so hard to disable, it's a good idea to make him your party's Lore Guy. Then he can use scrolls to deal with emergencies when everyone else is disabled.

[Crucis]

----deleted by me-----

Edited May 7, 2015 by Crucis

[CriticalFailure]

I understand that the 1.05 patch is probably dropping tomorrow

 

Where did you see that?

[MadDemiurg]

 

Righteous soul would be pretty good if anyone targeted paladin with the effects it counters. It's decent solo, but it doesn't counter the most scary afflictions and it's not that it can't be replicated with some item use if needed.

 

Yes ? What item ? What items can be used to take care of Charmed, Dominated ? Charmed and Dominated count as the most scary afflictions.

 

If you want peace, prepare for war. No one likes to attack the strong guy. Using your logic, having a gun at home is only good when someone is attacking you. I'd rather have people in the neighborhood know I have a gun and not attack me. If they don't target the Paladin, it's because the ability is doing its job.

 

Righteous Soul is good to have on a paladin, because he can keep enemies from reaching you, and help party members. I'd rather have one of my ranged characters charmed than Eder. Paladin can heal, revive, use Liberating Exhortation. Because paladin is so hard to disable, it's a good idea to make him your party's Lore Guy. Then he can use scrolls to deal with emergencies when everyone else is disabled.

 

Charmed and dominated are not that scary solo since enemies don't attack you when you're charmed, and in a party as I already said it's not useful cause nobody's charming the paladin. Enemies won't charm the paladin righteous soul or not, period. I'd actually be really pleased if they went for the paladin instead of the wizard, but that just doesn't happen. So not buying that argument. It's a theoretically useful ability that rarely gets used in practice.

 

As for items, recovery potions reduce duration of all afflictions, including the ones affected by the righteous soul. Specifically vs frightened/terrified you can also use protection against fear scrolls.

[eubatham]

Wary defender is a very bad talent. 

 

I know this is the Paladin thread, but you are completely wrong when it comes to Wary Defender. A free +10 deflection, +10 fortitude, +10 reflex and +10 will for one talent point is awesome.