Light or medium or heavy armor - melee rogue

[Brimsurfer]

Ok so I am playing a melee rogue, until yesterday I was using a fine medium armor which gave me 8 + 2 DR with -30% recovery but then I equipped a fine heavy armor on, which gave me 12 + 2 DR with -50% recovery............

 

With the heavy armor I am able to soak some incoming damage but I am wondering if loosing 20% recovery speed worth it?

 

Does anyone know anything about this one, I mean about how this all works and if I should really keep heavy armor on or should I go back to medium or even try light for better recovery speed......

 

Any advice or insight will be greatly appreciated, thanks.

[Zenicetus]

I'm playing a melee Rogue main. It's my first exposure to the game (after a false start up to level 4 and re-start), so take this with a grain of salt, but I think it's probably not far from general consensus on Rogues.

 

The idea with a melee Rogue is to maximize sneak attacks, which means you never want to be the first thing an enemy focuses on (other than an opening pull). You don't need the protection of heavy armor because you're not supposed to be continually hit. Instead, you want to be dancing around the outskirts of the battle, getting sneak attack hits on enemies your main melee characters are engaging.

 

You need just enough armor to survive a hit when you do get engaged directly, but when that happens, you don't want to keep fighting in a direct engagement. You want to escape, disengage, have another party member get the aggro, then dance around and come back for a sneak attack. The Rogue is a DPS build too, so you also need the fastest recovery time you can get between weapon swings. That means lighter armor, but not so light that you can't survive one or two heavy hits while maneuvering for sneak attacks. Or surviving direct damage spell attacks if you're off chasing down an enemy caster.

 

The way I approached this in the game was by taking leather armor for the first few levels, which seemed like a good compromise between protection and attack speed. Especially since I was new to the game and making a lot of mistakes! By the time I got up around level 5-6, I had access to enchantments and the higher-grade armor. So I switched to enchanted padded armor with some DR bonuses. There is at least one unique Exceptional set of padded armor you can get as a result of a quest around that point, or you can buy something close to that and add the enchantments yourself. Right now, padded armor seems like a good match for where my Rogue is in the game. 

 

The short version is to stay as light as you can, with armor that doesn't get you continuously killed. And keep your Rogue moving! Don't get caught up in extended, direct aggro and you won't need heavy armor. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Brimsurfer]

I'm playing a melee Rogue main. It's my first exposure to the game (after a false start up to level 4 and re-start), so take this with a grain of salt, but I think it's probably not far from general consensus on Rogues.

 

The idea with a melee Rogue is to maximize sneak attacks, which means you never want to be the first thing an enemy focuses on (other than an opening pull). You don't need the protection of heavy armor because you're not supposed to be continually hit. Instead, you want to be dancing around the outskirts of the battle, getting sneak attack hits on enemies your main melee characters are engaging.

 

You need just enough armor to survive a hit when you do get engaged directly, but when that happens, you don't want to keep fighting in a direct engagement. You want to escape, disengage, have another party member get the aggro, then dance around and come back for a sneak attack. The Rogue is a DPS build too, so you also need the fastest recovery time you can get between weapon swings. That means lighter armor, but not so light that you can't survive one or two heavy hits while maneuvering for sneak attacks. Or surviving direct damage spell attacks if you're off chasing down an enemy caster.

 

The way I approached this in the game was by taking leather armor for the first few levels, which seemed like a good compromise between protection and attack speed. Especially since I was new to the game and making a lot of mistakes! By the time I got up around level 5-6, I had access to enchantments and the higher-grade armor. So I switched to enchanted padded armor with some DR bonuses. There is at least one unique Exceptional set of padded armor you can get as a result of a quest around that point, or you can buy something close to that and add the enchantments yourself. Right now, padded armor seems like a good match for where my Rogue is in the game. 

 

The short version is to stay as light as you can, with armor that doesn't get you continuously killed. And keep your Rogue moving! Don't get caught up in extended, direct aggro and you won't need heavy armor. 

 

 

I am level 5 now and that was my approach too when I started the game, but the enemies keep turning back to attack me as soon as I sneak attack them.

 

Now I make sure that Eder has engaged them (and Eder has the talent that allows him to engage multiple enemies) but still every time I try to sneak attack an enemy who is engaged by Eder, the enemy leaves Eder and comes after my rogue and then I can't get him off, so thats why I tried the heavy armor........

 

So you mean when you sneak attack, a enemies who are already engaged by your tank, they don't turn back and attack you and then stick to you like hive bee?

 

 

Sorry I am just trying to understand this.....

Edited April 12, 2015 by Brimsurfer

[Zenicetus]

So you mean when you sneak attack, a enemies who are already engaged by your tank, they don't turn back and attack you and then stick to you like hive bee?

 

Yes, I can usually get to the side or behind an enemy Eder is engaging, and get hits without the target immediately turning away from him and attacking me. Not always, but most of the time. If I'm having more success than you are in that situation, it could be due to several things... just guessing here:

 

1) I'm using fast weapons like rapier and stiletto that don't have massive hits like 2H weapons that might pull more aggro. Just lots of smaller hits, although they do crit often. Some of the damage is also spread out over time, like Deep Wounds.

 

2) I'm often attacking enemies that aren't only getting hit by Eder, but also by caster spells for debuffs, stuns, knockdowns, etc. If the aggro is shared among several different members of the party, maybe I'm not drawing as much? Also, I use a tank + offtank front line (Eder + Pellegina) and they're both usually engaging more than one enemy. So again, my target might be getting more aggro focused on the tanks than on me.

 

3) I use abilities like Blinding Strike and Crippling Strike as often as I can, at least on the more dangerous enemies, so they aren't in a good position to hit back. 

 

Anyway, just some guessing there. And I can't always avoid pulling aggro when trying for a sneak attack. It just works more often than not, and often enough to get away with lighter armor.

Edited April 12, 2015 by Zenicetus

[kelticpete]

Maybe a better player than I could make a good melee rogue, but it is hard to do so if you want to use an attack to sneak up on them. they instantly go for you.

 

one thing to do would be to have your other characters melee first, then engage after they attack. 

 

the goal with a rogue is to always attack  "when  the target is Blinded, Flanked, Hobbled, Paralyzed, Petrified, Prone, Stuck, Stunned or Weakened, as well as when any target is struck within two seconds of combat starting."  

 

if you melee, you can also use the invisible thing twice per encounter. that should help a melee rogue out.

 

personally, I have used my high sneak this way 

 

1) scout. find enemy.

2) array my party a bit behind me, or by a chokehold. 

3) get as close as I can, and lay a trap (if it is a big toughie) and then sneak with my arbalest. 

4) run so that the hostile triggers trap.

5) run to party, who are now all engaging the hostile. by the time they get near the part, my ranger has wounded it from range, and my priest has interdicted the area.

 

often the first hostile is dead by the time the mob hits my party, so I use rogue or other means to hobble another target, and take down that one. 

 

I try to hobble first and save my blind for the hostile that is the toughest. blind is great. 

 

All that to say that I go with medium armor for my rogue, though I think a really finessed hardcore gamer would take light armor, enchant it, and play with lower dr but faster reaction.

Edited April 12, 2015 by kelticpete

[Zenicetus]

one thing to do would be to have your other characters melee first, then engage after they attack. 

 

 

the goal with a rogue is to always attack  "when  the target is Blinded, Flanked, Hobbled, Paralyzed, Petrified, Prone, Stuck, Stunned or Weakened, as well as when any target is struck within two seconds of combat starting."  

 

Right, a melee Rogue should be the last member of your party to make an attack, after enemies are locked up and engaged, and hit with spells by the rest of your party.

 

As the "party leader" I do initiate combat with a ranged weapon for the sneak attack-from-stealth and early hit bonus. Might as well, since I'm in the front of the formation when exploring in stealth mode. But after that opening pull, I immediately switch to melee weapons and RUN AWAAAAY behind my lines, and wait to circle around until my potential targets are already engaged. 

[Brimsurfer]

Most people are telling me that I should wait till the enemy is engaged, to attack with my rogue..........but I have already mentioned it many times that I AM attacking only those enemies that are already engaged...... but still people keep giving me this advise like i am not doing it, its frustrating seriously. I don't mean to offend anyone, I apologise if anyone felt offended.

 

Anyway, I am using two fast weapons, a flail and a stilleto both are heavily enchanted and as soon as I use them, the enemy even if he is engaged with my tanks, drops all aggro on them and turn towards me and then sticks to me like a chewing gum and I use blind (but we can only use once per encounter so......) as often as I can but I can't use it on every enemy  and that's why I tried using heavy armor, so I can take those enemies on, who turn around to attack me.......but I can't decide that the 15% to 20% recovery that I am sacrificing to use heavy armor, does it really worth it or should I revert back to leather.....

 

What I want to find out is to what degree recovery speed is crucial for a melee rogue? I have noticed a bit of delay in my action sequences since I equipped heavy armor (recovery speed down to -50% from -35%) its only a difference of 15%, but I am wondering if there is some hidden mechanic there that I am missing or may be the impact of this 15% is bigger than it seems.

 

The game doesn't tell me my no. of attacks or my ability cast speed and that's what got me confused......if anyone has any insight on this please let me know thanks....

[KDubya]

The best I could tell you is to use as light an armor as you can.

 

If wearing leather gets you pasted, try using full plate. You will attack slower but being alive to attack slow is better than being dead and not attacking at all.

 

Grab the blunting belt, get exceptional leather from the doemeni family shop in Defiance Bay. At level 9 this is what I am wearing on my fighter spec'd for damage and he is doing fine on hard.

[Nomadmerc]

Enchanted cloth only here. Finished game (potd) with a two weapon rogue with no regrets. Game plan was to either send tank(s) with a cipher casting the 'flank' spell then send in rogue to deal massive damage. Ended up with the 2h barbarian with ret armor having 110k rogue 90k.

 

Saber is bar non best 1h weapon to use. Secondly any other weapon type that gives bonus to flanking.

[Daemonjax]

Just have your cipher paralyze whatever is trying to hit your squishies.

[SilchasRuin]

The key to using a melee rogue effectively is not armor, but crowd control. With appropriate cc usage you can keep a rogue alive quite easily in cloth. Heavier armors tradeoff is too high for minimal gain. In order to make heavy armor effective you really need high deflection which comes at a substantial dps cost, not even considering the dps cost of the armor itself.

 

The rogue should focus almost entirely on dealing with enemies that are currently cc'd, this has a further benefit of enabling sneak attacks, thus killing two birds with one stone. When supported by a Wizard and Cipher, it's very easy to always have a disabled target for the rogue to go after. Disable targets that go behind your tank and sick the rogue on them. The rogue should only rarely be getting attacked, and if he does draw aggro you should disable the enemy attacking him and the rogue should then be able to quickly drop whatever enemy was attacking him.

 

There is also a rather useful ring that I believe you can buy from the Ondra's Gift merchant that gives the Second Chance property, if you mess up and your rogue pulls more aggro than he can survive this item will give your rogue a second lease on life and buy you time to either cc or draw the aggro away from him.

Edited April 13, 2015 by SilchasRuin

[Luckmann]

Enchanted cloth only here. Finished game (potd) with a two weapon rogue with no regrets. Game plan was to either send tank(s) with a cipher casting the 'flank' spell then send in rogue to deal massive damage. Ended up with the 2h barbarian with ret armor having 110k rogue 90k.

 

Saber is bar non best 1h weapon to use. Secondly any other weapon type that gives bonus to flanking.

^ This.

 

"Light or Medium or Heavy Armor" is a trick question. The answer is "None of the above".

[Siven80]

I go for medium armour, currently using scale on my rogue.

 

No matter how smart you play, you spellcasters and rogue types will get hit by something, so i make sure they can survive by wearing approppriate armour and not just cloth (im not a min maxer).

 

I also often use my rogue to solo kill wizards etc so that medium armour can be useful for taking the odd hit too.

[Gilker]

i used light -20% speed armor with my rogue. you don't need a heavy armor when you drop you opponent in a very short amount of time, and that only when you are actually targetted, which should be avoided as mutch as possible.

 

my rogue strategy was to engage the fight with high damage ranged weapon (heavy crossbow for 60-110 damage on first hit with sneak attack). then back off behind the front line, let the fighters soak the engagement, the casters cast crowd control spells and the rogue get back in the melee, using two maces (high damage and a little DR reduction).

 

i like boots of speed too, having high mobility is a must have for a character glass canon like a rogue. when engaged by a powerfull enemy, invisibility is very usefull as it offer a free disengagement and an automatic sneak attack right after.

[Zenicetus]

 

"Light or Medium or Heavy Armor" is a trick question. The answer is "None of the above".

 

I'm sure that's true for an experienced player, especially if they've been in the beta and have learned all the game mechanics inside and out. For someone like me doing my first play-through, new to the game, I think I'm doing okay by using just padded armor!

 

I'll try cloth if I replay the game, or if it makes sense for the expansion(s).

[SilchasRuin]

The thing about all of the armor options is you get very little out of them with low deflection unless the enemy does low damage and fast attacks, of which I haven't seen many outside of certain DoT spells.

 

If you have say 6 DR this is only giving you a false sense of safety outside of low levels and low difficulty. If the enemy deals 50 damage per attack then that 6 DR is equivalent to 12% damage reduction but comes at the cost of around 10-15% DPS reduction. If you're specced for damage that 10-15% is coming out of a high stat, the damage you deal per second, in favor of buffing a low stat, how much damage you can take, by the same percent amount. Furthermore, if you're able to avoid your rogue getting damaged in the first place the buff to survivability is completely negated. Now on low difficulties at lower levels you might get a decent survivability buff, but if anything this where you need the extra sturdiness the least needed.

Edited April 13, 2015 by SilchasRuin

[Zenicetus]

The thing about all of the armor options is you get very little out of them with low deflection unless the enemy does low damage and fast attacks, of which I haven't seen many outside of certain DoT spells.

 

If you have say 6 DR this is only giving you a false sense of safety outside of low levels and low difficulty. If the enemy deals 50 damage per attack then that 6 DR is equivalent to 12% damage reduction but comes at the cost of around 10-15% DPS reduction. If you're specced for damage that 10-15% is coming out of a high stat, the damage you deal per second, in favor of buffing a low stat, how much damage you can take, by the same percent amount. Furthermore, if you're able to avoid your rogue getting damaged in the first place the buff to survivability is completely negated. Now on low difficulties at lower levels you might get a decent survivability buff, but if anything this where you need the extra sturdiness the least needed.

 

I can see the argument, but it's predicated on something that won't apply to most players making their first run through the game -- namely, that they can actually avoid ever being hit, so the reduction in total DPS during the fight actually matters! A Rogue knocked out on the floor isn't contributing any DPS to the party. 

 

By the mid-game, a Rogue can use Exceptional grade Padded Armor with 8 DR +4 DR additional, which is decent protection in most fights. The recovery penalty is 20%, and yes that limits the total DPS compared to no armor. But again, that only matters if the Rogue is able to dish out that DPS during the full extent of the battle, and not get knocked out. Which again, is related to how good you are at the game. 

 

One final point: If the Rogue in the party can take care of himself, without needing frequent "heals" (endurance recovery) from the casters, then it's less micro-management during the fight. And those endurance spells can be used on other party members.