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Help me understand the last part of the main quest


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Hello !

 

I had some trouble understanding some part of the main story.  translations in my native language are quite bad to be honest and i think i missed some explanations (or i'm just really dumb ;( ).

 

 

if i understood well, there is no "real" gods, they have been invented while ago. Thaos kept that secret, because without gods, peoples gets puproseless and more encline to do bad things. what i don't understand is what are the "gods" we often communicate with a the end of the story ? overpowered creatures created by the people that found that there was no creator ? a voice mail service ? Imagination ? Hylea is obviously real, even more if you betray her... so i don't quite get it :geek: 

 

 

thanks for your help !

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Hello !

 

I had some trouble understanding some part of the main story.  translations in my native language are quite bad to be honest and i think i missed some explanations (or i'm just really dumb ;( ).

 

 

if i understood well, there is no "real" gods, they have been invented while ago. Thaos kept that secret, because without gods, peoples gets puproseless and more encline to do bad things. what i don't understand is what are the "gods" we often communicate with a the end of the story ? overpowered creatures created by the people that found that there was no creator ? a voice mail service ? Imagination ? Hylea is obviously real, even more if you betray her... so i don't quite get it :geek: 

 

 

thanks for your help !

 

 

 

In my opinion, it doesn't make a lot of sense. People are upset that the gods are not "real", but they are real. I think that maybe the gods claimed they created everything and that's the lie folks are upset with?

 

Honestly, I had zero problem with the gods being of a different nature than their followers thought. I don't know why all the NPCs were so fussy about it. It seemed like they were more upset that the gods were slightly misrepresented than they were that Thaos was trying to kill every child on the continent for a generation. Those are pretty messed up priorities, if you ask me.

 

Edited by mcjarvis
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You can think of them as superhuman Artificial Intelligences rulling the world. Also, since they aren't immortal creators of the world, it brings their wisdom into question, I suppose.

 

Also, imagine that one of the real world gods turns out to be real... but it also turns out it were aliens in disguise. I think quite a few people would be upset about this ;)

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The question would be... what is a god? Do you have to create "everything" in order to be a god? Or is there a level where you are powerful enough to be considered one?

 

From my understanding back in the old days there was lots of "gods", the... old creators (cant remember their name) and some of the best animancers around began to search for any higher being or god. However due to unknown reasons, they were either unable to comprehend or not good enough to find a god. In order to solve this they went together and created the gods. And we can guess that its from a lot of souls being merged. Most likely there are other things that you have have to do but yeah. In either case some of the creators became missionaries in order to spread the information about the gods they had just created.

 

So the question in the end is still what is a god? They are clearly the most powerful known creatures on this planet and they can cause great disasters if you anger them.

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You can think of them as superhuman Artificial Intelligences rulling the world. Also, since they aren't immortal creators of the world, it brings their wisdom into question, I suppose.

 

Also, imagine that one of the real world gods turns out to be real... but it also turns out it were aliens in disguise. I think quite a few people would be upset about this ;)

 

I feel like most people just wouldn't care unless the gods were causing some kind of harm. I talked to my wife about this, and her counterexample was Stargate--- but there, the only fake-gods people really objected to were the ones that also persecuted. The asgarde posed as gods as well, but because they didn't do anything super evil no one seemed to really care.

 

Like I said, I think the NPCs are super-weirdly upset about the "fake"-gods thing. I think Obsidian also assumed that most players would also be on board with this outrage, since when in-game I said I didn't think it mattered one way or the other, the only response I got was, "I'm surprised you would feel that way."

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You can think of them as superhuman Artificial Intelligences rulling the world. Also, since they aren't immortal creators of the world, it brings their wisdom into question, I suppose.

 

Also, imagine that one of the real world gods turns out to be real... but it also turns out it were aliens in disguise. I think quite a few people would be upset about this ;)

 

I feel like most people just wouldn't care unless the gods were causing some kind of harm. I talked to my wife about this, and her counterexample was Stargate--- but there, the only fake-gods people really objected to were the ones that also persecuted. The asgarde posed as gods as well, but because they didn't do anything super evil no one seemed to really care.

 

Most people in Stargate don't know about the aliens, though; only really the people in SGC. A big part of the show is actually about what makes a god; the basic idea is that power isn't it. Even the Ori are not considered gods by the main cast.

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In my opinion, it doesn't make a lot of sense. People are upset that the gods are not "real", but they are real. I think that maybe the gods claimed they created everything and that's the lie folks are upset with?

 

 Well, they were created by humans to control everybody's behavior. That seems like a breach of good taste if nothing else, no? ( <--understated for humorous effect).

 

....I feel like most people just wouldn't care unless the gods were causing some kind of harm.....

 

 As a thought experiment, what happens in the real world when someone tells a religious person that their one of their religious beliefs, even a relatively minor one, is false/nonsensical etc. and backs up the statement with verifiable facts? 

 

 Do they say,  "That is an excellent point you bring up, I will stop wasting my time with that belief and get on with life" or do they tend to get upset?

 

... I don't know why all the NPCs were so fussy about it. It seemed like they were more upset that the gods were slightly misrepresented than they were that Thaos was trying to kill every child on the continent for a generation.

 

 Again, let's look at real life. A lot of people care more about their religious beliefs than they do about other human beings. Just this year, a couple was convicted of letting their own child die of an easily preventable illness because their religion forbids a certain type of medical care. 

 

 

Those are pretty messed up priorities, if you ask me.

 

 Agreed, but also very believable. People aren't always rational about these things.

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....I feel like most people just wouldn't care unless the gods were causing some kind of harm.....

 

 As a thought experiment, what happens in the real world when someone tells a religious person that their one of their religious beliefs, even a relatively minor one, is false/nonsensical etc. and backs up the statement with verifiable facts? 

 

 Do they say,  "That is an excellent point you bring up, I will stop wasting my time with that belief and get on with life" or do they tend to get upset?

 

 

I have quite a bit of experience with talking with people who are dealing with these issues with regards to Protestantism. Sometimes folks respond with a sense of betrayal--- but more often it's just a distancing from the church. There's even a fair share of "Well, it isn't true, but it still does good things" kinds of sentiment. It's weird that every NPC in my party was personally hurt in a self-doubt kind of way like this.

 

 

... I don't know why all the NPCs were so fussy about it. It seemed like they were more upset that the gods were slightly misrepresented than they were that Thaos was trying to kill every child on the continent for a generation.

 

 Again, let's look at real life. A lot of people care more about their religious beliefs than they do about other human beings. Just this year, a couple was convicted of letting their own child die of an easily preventable illness because their religion forbids a certain type of medical care. 

 

 

Those are pretty messed up priorities, if you ask me.

 

 Agreed, but also very believable. People aren't always rational about these things.

 

 

I agree that there exist people like this---- what seemed strange to me was that I was the only person in the story who took a "big deal" stance. I get the anger in the case of god-kings who persecute in the name of religion(Thaos, in this story), but the game does a pretty poor job of identifying why we should care about the lies. The underlying narrative seems to be that we should be upset/insulted that we were lied to, rather than be upset/insulted because people suffered because of these lies. I think that's an important distinction in many people's eyes.

Edited by mcjarvis
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The ending, and certain dialogues esp. with Grieving Mother, are essentially about free will:

Is it better that people can decide on their own (and potentially create a mess), or should they be led by a dictator trying to prevent the biggest failures?

In the end, the Watcher discovers that there are no gods but that some ancient people had decided for themselves that other people needed dictators, and created some for general convenience. Some of them benevolent, some real a**holes.

It's a "the Party is always right" or "the State knows best what's good for you" scenario. The analogy to powerful A.I. is quite good, imho.

You don't even stamp out religion with the end of the game. But you free the way for those who think that it's not really necessary.

Therefore I have sailed the seas and come

To the holy city of Byzantium. -W.B. Yeats

 

Χριστός ἀνέστη!

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....I feel like most people just wouldn't care unless the gods were causing some kind of harm.....

 

 As a thought experiment, what happens in the real world when someone tells a religious person that their one of their religious beliefs, even a relatively minor one, is false/nonsensical etc. and backs up the statement with verifiable facts? 

 

 Do they say,  "That is an excellent point you bring up, I will stop wasting my time with that belief and get on with life" or do they tend to get upset?

 

 

I have quite a bit of experience with talking with people who are dealing with these issues with regards to Protestantism. Sometimes folks respond with a sense of betrayal--- but more often it's just a distancing from the church. There's even a fair share of "Well, it isn't true, but it still does good things" kinds of sentiment. It's weird that every NPC in my party was personally hurt in a self-doubt kind of way like this.

 

 Are you in Western Europe (or some other place with reasonable views about religion)? The reason I ask is that, in the U.S., we've had the "unholy" union of religion and politics since about 1980. The result is a toxic mixture of totalitarian irrationality that we need to fix (it's funny how when politics and religion get mixed together, you never end up with more peaceful politicians and more rational religious people - anyway, the good thing about intolerant people is that they eventually stop tolerating each other, so it tends to be self-limiting). 

 

 

 

 I agree that there exist people like this---- what seemed strange to me was that I was the only person in the story who took a "big deal" stance. I get the anger in the case of god-kings who persecute in the name of religion(Thaos, in this story), but the game does a pretty poor job of identifying why we should care about the lies. The underlying narrative seems to be that we should be upset/insulted that we were lied to, rather than be upset/insulted because people suffered because of these lies. I think that's an important distinction in many people's eyes.

 

 I see what you mean. I think that it (possibly unintentionally) reflects the political situation in the U.S.

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....I feel like most people just wouldn't care unless the gods were causing some kind of harm.....

 

 As a thought experiment, what happens in the real world when someone tells a religious person that their one of their religious beliefs, even a relatively minor one, is false/nonsensical etc. and backs up the statement with verifiable facts? 

 

 Do they say,  "That is an excellent point you bring up, I will stop wasting my time with that belief and get on with life" or do they tend to get upset?

 

 

I have quite a bit of experience with talking with people who are dealing with these issues with regards to Protestantism. Sometimes folks respond with a sense of betrayal--- but more often it's just a distancing from the church. There's even a fair share of "Well, it isn't true, but it still does good things" kinds of sentiment. It's weird that every NPC in my party was personally hurt in a self-doubt kind of way like this.

 

 Are you in Western Europe (or some other place with reasonable views about religion)? The reason I ask is that, in the U.S., we've had the "unholy" union of religion and politics since about 1980. The result is a toxic mixture of totalitarian irrationality that we need to fix (it's funny how when politics and religion get mixed together, you never end up with more peaceful politicians and more rational religious people - anyway, the good thing about intolerant people is that they eventually stop tolerating each other, so it tends to be self-limiting). 

 

 

 

 

 

I live in the US. I've spent about half my life in Indiana and the other half in a mixture of Washington DC and Minneapolis. When I was a kid stores were closed on Sundays, and it's been interesting seeing the country's discourse/traditions seemingly transform over the last three decades. However, I don't see the rise and fall of the conservative right as an example of corruption in politics--- even for issues like gay marriage there was certainly discrimination from all political sides before the 1980s. My own impression is that religion is frequently used as a method to form excuses for discrimination and bigotry, but it is not the root cause. 

 

And, like I said--- I've certainly had friends who were in the church who were very militantly anti-church upon deciding they didn't  believe what their parents believed. But on the other hand, there are others who simply left the church without all the drama and conducted their lives as they wished. Just because you stop doing something or your beliefs change doesn't mean that you're going to be bitter. At the root of it, it just means that something changed. And people respond differently to change, because people are different from each other.

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...though I will say, being a resident of Minnesota now--- if somebody comes along and tells me that we haven't been selling beer/wine on Sundays for a good reason all these years, I'm just gonna lose it.  :w00t:

Edited by mcjarvis
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I live in the US. I've spent about half my life in Indiana and the other half in a mixture of Washington DC and Minneapolis. When I was a kid stores were closed on Sundays, and it's been interesting seeing the country's discourse/traditions seemingly transform over the last three decades. However, I don't see the rise and fall of the conservative right as an example of corruption in politics--- even for issues like gay marriage there was certainly discrimination from all political sides before the 1980s. My own impression is that religion is frequently used as a method to form excuses for discrimination and bigotry, but it is not the root cause. 

 

 I agree. Religious beliefs often get a free pass when it comes to criticism so it's a convenient excuse for the indefensible. I think that politicians on the right have seen this property of religion as a great thing to get in on. It hasn't been good for our government but, if anything, it has been worse for the religions. I know several people a generation or so younger than I am who left their religion entirely because of the stance on gay rights.

 

...though I will say, being a resident of Minnesota now--- if somebody comes along and tells me that we haven't been selling beer/wine on Sundays for a good reason all these years, I'm just gonna lose it.  :w00t:

 

 I used to live in state with blue laws (MA). Our neighbor to the north (NH) had alcohol for sale on Sundays. Somebody apparently did the calculation about the lost tax revenue and put a "buffer zone" near the border - towns in northern MA that were allowed to sell alcohol on Sundays. I'll just leave that here without comment.

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Hello !

 

I had some trouble understanding some part of the main story.  translations in my native language are quite bad to be honest and i think i missed some explanations (or i'm just really dumb ;( ).

 

 

if i understood well, there is no "real" gods, they have been invented while ago. Thaos kept that secret, because without gods, peoples gets puproseless and more encline to do bad things. what i don't understand is what are the "gods" we often communicate with a the end of the story ? overpowered creatures created by the people that found that there was no creator ? a voice mail service ? Imagination ? Hylea is obviously real, even more if you betray her... so i don't quite get it :geek: 

 

 

thanks for your help !

 

 

 

In my opinion, it doesn't make a lot of sense. People are upset that the gods are not "real", but they are real. I think that maybe the gods claimed they created everything and that's the lie folks are upset with?

 

Honestly, I had zero problem with the gods being of a different nature than their followers thought. I don't know why all the NPCs were so fussy about it. It seemed like they were more upset that the gods were slightly misrepresented than they were that Thaos was trying to kill every child on the continent for a generation. Those are pretty messed up priorities, if you ask me.

 

 

 

Yeah, I really missed the lack of an option for my PC to go "...so what?  I don't see what this really changes."

 

 

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