Obsidian devs after the Limerick controversy..

[Bryy]

We all need to chill the **** out.

That's all my poem's about.

[evensong]

Also, as a med student: although you can measure the physiological process of pain through a variety of methods, the phenomenon is so complex and - crucially - is an entirely subjective experience anyway, so there is no point in measuring it on an individual basis. There's a reason the scale of insect sting painfulness (the Schmidt sting pain index), for example, is only useful as a relative measure and has to use the subjective experience of a single person (Justin O. Schmidt) as a baseline.

[eggdogg]

 

A big problem right now is this societal shift of not taking personal accountability or responsibility for anything, which leads to finger pointing and excuses like limericks such as this causing "psychological trauma"

 

When did people become so soft?

 

 

I will admit I find it a tad odd and surprising to see that Obsidian chose to censor the limerick, seeing as how this is the company that produced Caesar's Legion and Durance. Both of them preach about how conflict or "fires" can make you stronger while burning away the weak and unworthy. With stories like that, you think they'd have a mentality of how the world is harsh and you need to be willing to face that some people can and will offend you, but you need to be able to carry on.

 

  But again I'm a realist and I'm sure this was a decision made (decision to even ask Firedorn) moreso in the interest of marketing. Companies are notorious for being a place for ideologies to die.

 

Do you find it a tad bit odd that Christian Bale is not actually Batman or a serial killer?

[Mungri]

In this game I found pretty hats

And thought 'My characters need to wear that'

BUT WHY CANT I ENCHANT THEM?

BUT WHY CANT I ENCHANT THEM?

BUT WHY CANT I ENCHANT THEM?

 

ENCHANT THEM I CANNOT WHY?????

[Longknife]

 

 

A big problem right now is this societal shift of not taking personal accountability or responsibility for anything, which leads to finger pointing and excuses like limericks such as this causing "psychological trauma"

 

When did people become so soft?

 

 

I will admit I find it a tad odd and surprising to see that Obsidian chose to censor the limerick, seeing as how this is the company that produced Caesar's Legion and Durance. Both of them preach about how conflict or "fires" can make you stronger while burning away the weak and unworthy. With stories like that, you think they'd have a mentality of how the world is harsh and you need to be willing to face that some people can and will offend you, but you need to be able to carry on.

 

  But again I'm a realist and I'm sure this was a decision made (decision to even ask Firedorn) moreso in the interest of marketing. Companies are notorious for being a place for ideologies to die.

 

Do you find it a tad bit odd that Christian Bale is not actually Batman or a serial killer?

 

 

 

I find that analogy a little weak.

He played a part that was handed to him. Obsidian wrote and constructed those things themselves. You're better at writing about concepts you're passionate about, so it's odd to see writings about "what doesn't kill you makes you stronger" on one hand and then a desire to protect someone's feelers in the next. As I said though, the realist answer is of course that marketing would never allow such potential drama like that limerick existing post-complaint.

[evensong]

Enchanted hats would be great,

But not in the game's current state.

It's already a breeze

Sailing PoE seas

Pimped out hats would just make it too easy.

[Longknife]

This thread appears to have forgotten what a limerick is...

[Katarack21]

 

 

 

A big problem right now is this societal shift of not taking personal accountability or responsibility for anything, which leads to finger pointing and excuses like limericks such as this causing "psychological trauma"

 

When did people become so soft?

 

 

I will admit I find it a tad odd and surprising to see that Obsidian chose to censor the limerick, seeing as how this is the company that produced Caesar's Legion and Durance. Both of them preach about how conflict or "fires" can make you stronger while burning away the weak and unworthy. With stories like that, you think they'd have a mentality of how the world is harsh and you need to be willing to face that some people can and will offend you, but you need to be able to carry on.

 

  But again I'm a realist and I'm sure this was a decision made (decision to even ask Firedorn) moreso in the interest of marketing. Companies are notorious for being a place for ideologies to die.

 

Do you find it a tad bit odd that Christian Bale is not actually Batman or a serial killer?

 

 

 

I find that analogy a little weak.

He played a part that was handed to him. Obsidian wrote and constructed those things themselves. You're better at writing about concepts you're passionate about, so it's odd to see writings about "what doesn't kill you makes you stronger" on one hand and then a desire to protect someone's feelers in the next. As I said though, the realist answer is of course that marketing would never allow such potential drama like that limerick existing post-complaint.

 

No. Just because Chris Avellone wrote a character like Durance does not mean Chris Avellone is anything like Durance at all. It's called creativity and imagination; your characters don't necessarily reflect anything that you are. I mean, come on; do you really think every author whose ever written a serial killer go off on a villain rant is secretly a psychopath inside?

[evensong]

 

 

 

A big problem right now is this societal shift of not taking personal accountability or responsibility for anything, which leads to finger pointing and excuses like limericks such as this causing "psychological trauma"

 

When did people become so soft?

 

 

 

I will admit I find it a tad odd and surprising to see that Obsidian chose to censor the limerick, seeing as how this is the company that produced Caesar's Legion and Durance. Both of them preach about how conflict or "fires" can make you stronger while burning away the weak and unworthy. With stories like that, you think they'd have a mentality of how the world is harsh and you need to be willing to face that some people can and will offend you, but you need to be able to carry on.

 

  But again I'm a realist and I'm sure this was a decision made (decision to even ask Firedorn) moreso in the interest of marketing. Companies are notorious for being a place for ideologies to die.

Do you find it a tad bit odd that Christian Bale is not actually Batman or a serial killer?

 

 

I find that analogy a little weak.

He played a part that was handed to him. Obsidian wrote and constructed those things themselves. You're better at writing about concepts you're passionate about, so it's odd to see writings about "what doesn't kill you makes you stronger" on one hand and then a desire to protect someone's feelers in the next. As I said though, the realist answer is of course that marketing would never allow such potential drama like that limerick existing post-complaint.

Yeah, it's absolutely unbelievable to me that they could put in several characters and factions with different opinions and ways of life into A ROLE PLAYING GAME.

[Longknife]

 

 

 

 

A big problem right now is this societal shift of not taking personal accountability or responsibility for anything, which leads to finger pointing and excuses like limericks such as this causing "psychological trauma"

 

When did people become so soft?

 

 

I will admit I find it a tad odd and surprising to see that Obsidian chose to censor the limerick, seeing as how this is the company that produced Caesar's Legion and Durance. Both of them preach about how conflict or "fires" can make you stronger while burning away the weak and unworthy. With stories like that, you think they'd have a mentality of how the world is harsh and you need to be willing to face that some people can and will offend you, but you need to be able to carry on.

 

  But again I'm a realist and I'm sure this was a decision made (decision to even ask Firedorn) moreso in the interest of marketing. Companies are notorious for being a place for ideologies to die.

 

Do you find it a tad bit odd that Christian Bale is not actually Batman or a serial killer?

 

 

 

I find that analogy a little weak.

He played a part that was handed to him. Obsidian wrote and constructed those things themselves. You're better at writing about concepts you're passionate about, so it's odd to see writings about "what doesn't kill you makes you stronger" on one hand and then a desire to protect someone's feelers in the next. As I said though, the realist answer is of course that marketing would never allow such potential drama like that limerick existing post-complaint.

 

No. Just because Chris Avellone wrote a character like Durance does not mean Chris Avellone is anything like Durance at all. It's called creativity and imagination; your characters don't necessarily reflect anything that you are. I mean, come on; do you really think every author whose ever written a serial killer go off on a villain rant is secretly a psychopath inside?

 

 

Never said it did, but it means he dwells on things involving Durance a fair deal. It means you dwell on the concepts that drive them. For example I bet I could write a character that represents some of the "evils" of capitalism without making it a blatant always-bad antagonist, because I've often dwelled on the things capitalism gets right and wrong. That's a form of internal struggle for me, because the arguments for capitalism are often logically sound, but I myself have a lifetime of experience of what it's like to be screwed over by such a system, and what happens when people with money can throw that cash about to get their way, regardless of if their way is correct or not. Avellone, if I'm not mistaken, has gone on record multiple times saying he writes about things he hates, things that make him sad or things that are flawed. Stands out cause most people would be the opposite. If I go off my personal take on it, then I would imagine Avellone at least has some degree of agreement with things Durance says. He certainly went on record to say he agreed with Ulysses in New Vegas, and there's parallels between those two characters.

[Longknife]

Yeah, it's absolutely unbelievable to me that they could put in several characters and factions with different opinions and ways of life into A ROLE PLAYING GAME.

 

 

 

You guys are completely missing the point.

 

Being able to write about a concept in a neutral way shows capacity to sympathize with that concept and understand it.

Obsidian has written about "what doesn't kill you makes you stronger" multiple times and must at least have some degree of understanding and/or sympathy with it.

 

Therefore, even if it's not their concrete stance on things, I find it odd to see how quickly that change came about, given the circumstances.

[Psychevore]

I can't believe all of you guys and gals getting so upset about such a trivial part of the game being removed. It's not like they changed the story, the gameplay or really anything significant at all. Hell, they even asked the guy/gal who made it, and he/she was like: 'Alright'.

 

Also no idea why people keep insisting Obsidian lost their artistic integrity, or whatever kind of silly molds of integrity you've come up with in the last couple of days/weeks, as this was not something they made themselves.

 

And, lastly, also not a clue why there was so much controversy over the limmerick to begin with. But getting so upset it is removed from the game is way, way more ridiculous if you ask me.

Edited April 9, 2015 by Psychevore

[mrmonocle]

 if you ask me.

No, I won't

[evensong]

 

Yeah, it's absolutely unbelievable to me that they could put in several characters and factions with different opinions and ways of life into A ROLE PLAYING GAME.

 

 

 

 

You guys are completely missing the point.

 

Being able to write about a concept in a neutral way shows capacity to sympathize with that concept and understand it.

Obsidian has written about "what doesn't kill you makes you stronger" multiple times and must at least have some degree of understanding and/or sympathy with it.

Therefore, even if it's not their concrete stance on things, I find it odd to see how quickly that change came about, given the circumstances.

Understand, certainly, but that's a far cry from sympathising. An example is Joss Whedon's Firefly, where the lead character is an internally consistent and well written libertarian character written by a dude pretty far out to the left. Hell, the same dudes that wrote the ridiculous Michael Bay film Pain and Gain are currently writing the distinctly pro-feminist (but sadly, not especially good) Agent Carter. Characters do not reflect anything about their creator, unless you're reading Atlas Shrugged, in which case you should be reading better fiction anyway.

[eggdogg]

 

 

 

A big problem right now is this societal shift of not taking personal accountability or responsibility for anything, which leads to finger pointing and excuses like limericks such as this causing "psychological trauma"

 

When did people become so soft?

 

 

I will admit I find it a tad odd and surprising to see that Obsidian chose to censor the limerick, seeing as how this is the company that produced Caesar's Legion and Durance. Both of them preach about how conflict or "fires" can make you stronger while burning away the weak and unworthy. With stories like that, you think they'd have a mentality of how the world is harsh and you need to be willing to face that some people can and will offend you, but you need to be able to carry on.

 

  But again I'm a realist and I'm sure this was a decision made (decision to even ask Firedorn) moreso in the interest of marketing. Companies are notorious for being a place for ideologies to die.

 

Do you find it a tad bit odd that Christian Bale is not actually Batman or a serial killer?

 

 

 

I find that analogy a little weak.

He played a part that was handed to him. Obsidian wrote and constructed those things themselves. You're better at writing about concepts you're passionate about, so it's odd to see writings about "what doesn't kill you makes you stronger" on one hand and then a desire to protect someone's feelers in the next. As I said though, the realist answer is of course that marketing would never allow such potential drama like that limerick existing post-complaint.

 

Writing is a creative process and the passion to create fuels the process. That passion will always trump the material. Obsidian has also written and constructed many stories that are full of manipulation, darkness and murder. Do you expect them to live their lives like Sith Lords because they created the most realistic Sith Lords?    

[McMayhem]

Can you conspiracy theorists please recede to your respective bomb shelters? It just looks really bad when you claim that the SJWs whine too much, and then proceed to create countless threads about a single, minuscule event that really didn't have any effect on the overall game. This takes kicking a dead horse to a new level. You've used your necromancy powers to resurrect the dead horse, just so you can beat it again.

 

Is there really anything else to discuss? Are there any additional points of view that need to be raised? Or are you merely taking advantage of the fact that Obsidian won't auto-close threads that condemn them for hating freedom?

 

: /

[evensong]

It's always weird to me when people reply to the OP in a thread that has gone on for several pages.

[Katarack21]

Good authors write about things they know, not things they agree with or think are awesome. Chris Avellone, to continue the example, writes very philosophical characters and stories. Nietzschean philosophy is not all he writes; PS:T is an excellent example. Different characters in that game espouse many and various philosophies and ideals, many of them directly contradictory.

If I were to take a guess, I'd say the man has spent a lot of time thinking about things like ethics, morality, the impact of choices, etc. I think it's very wrong to point out one particular character and say "He's written this before; this must be his chosen philosophy and viewpoint."

You seem to be advocating the "death of the author" concept, which I've always personally found insulting and demeaning to authors.

[Longknife]

 

 

 

 

A big problem right now is this societal shift of not taking personal accountability or responsibility for anything, which leads to finger pointing and excuses like limericks such as this causing "psychological trauma"

 

When did people become so soft?

 

 

I will admit I find it a tad odd and surprising to see that Obsidian chose to censor the limerick, seeing as how this is the company that produced Caesar's Legion and Durance. Both of them preach about how conflict or "fires" can make you stronger while burning away the weak and unworthy. With stories like that, you think they'd have a mentality of how the world is harsh and you need to be willing to face that some people can and will offend you, but you need to be able to carry on.

 

  But again I'm a realist and I'm sure this was a decision made (decision to even ask Firedorn) moreso in the interest of marketing. Companies are notorious for being a place for ideologies to die.

 

Do you find it a tad bit odd that Christian Bale is not actually Batman or a serial killer?

 

 

 

I find that analogy a little weak.

He played a part that was handed to him. Obsidian wrote and constructed those things themselves. You're better at writing about concepts you're passionate about, so it's odd to see writings about "what doesn't kill you makes you stronger" on one hand and then a desire to protect someone's feelers in the next. As I said though, the realist answer is of course that marketing would never allow such potential drama like that limerick existing post-complaint.

 

Writing is a creative process and the passion to create fuels the process. That passion will always trump the material. Obsidian has also written and constructed many stories that are full of manipulation, darkness and murder. Do you expect them to live their lives like Sith Lords because they created the most realistic Sith Lords?    

 

 

The difference being that the characters that are murderers and manipulators are not painted in a neutral light, but a purely negative one. No one who plays New Vegas like Dermont and Saint James, because those characters are afforded no sympathy, because they're murderers and manipulators.

 

Caesar on the other hand...? Many people hate him, sure, but the game also feeds you plenty of reason to like and respect him. As it does Ulysses, as it does Durance.

Again that does not mean they agree with these characters 100%, but merely that they can show sympathy for their ideals. Which, their ideals kinda tie into "don't change it," so I was a little surprised to see how quickly they made efforts to possibly change it. From what we've seen it seemed like little consideration went into possibly keeping it and they moved to see what they could do the moment it came up. That's what surprised me, just how quickly it seems to have gone down.

[Psychevore]

 

if you ask me.

No, I won't

 

 

I know, so I already answered.

Edited April 9, 2015 by Psychevore

[Mungri]

This thread appears to have forgotten what a limerick is...

ENCHANT HATS WHY CAN I NOT?

ENCHANT HATS WHY CAN I NOT?

WHY CANT I ENCHANT THEM?

WHY CANT I ENCHANT THEM?

HATS ENCHANT CAN I WHY NOT????

[Longknife]

You seem to be advocating the "death of the author" concept, which I've always personally found insulting and demeaning to authors.

 

 

If I've understood this correctly, you seem to have this confused.

 

Death of the author is advocacy to disassociate the author from the creation, which I'm doing the opposite of.

[evensong]

Rhyme meter is good but work on your scanning. Anapests - two short unstressed, then a long stressed.

[Katarack21]

 

 

 

 

 

A big problem right now is this societal shift of not taking personal accountability or responsibility for anything, which leads to finger pointing and excuses like limericks such as this causing "psychological trauma"

 

When did people become so soft?

 

 

I will admit I find it a tad odd and surprising to see that Obsidian chose to censor the limerick, seeing as how this is the company that produced Caesar's Legion and Durance. Both of them preach about how conflict or "fires" can make you stronger while burning away the weak and unworthy. With stories like that, you think they'd have a mentality of how the world is harsh and you need to be willing to face that some people can and will offend you, but you need to be able to carry on.

 

  But again I'm a realist and I'm sure this was a decision made (decision to even ask Firedorn) moreso in the interest of marketing. Companies are notorious for being a place for ideologies to die.

 

Do you find it a tad bit odd that Christian Bale is not actually Batman or a serial killer?

 

 

 

I find that analogy a little weak.

He played a part that was handed to him. Obsidian wrote and constructed those things themselves. You're better at writing about concepts you're passionate about, so it's odd to see writings about "what doesn't kill you makes you stronger" on one hand and then a desire to protect someone's feelers in the next. As I said though, the realist answer is of course that marketing would never allow such potential drama like that limerick existing post-complaint.

 

Writing is a creative process and the passion to create fuels the process. That passion will always trump the material. Obsidian has also written and constructed many stories that are full of manipulation, darkness and murder. Do you expect them to live their lives like Sith Lords because they created the most realistic Sith Lords?    

 

 

The difference being that the characters that are murderers and manipulators are not painted in a neutral light, but a purely negative one. No one who plays New Vegas like Dermont and Saint James, because those characters are afforded no sympathy, because they're murderers and manipulators.

And yet sympathetic villains who are no less villainous for their tragic orgins are a thing that exist. Jon Irenicus, for example; he's presented with a sympathetic, even tragic, backstory but his nature as an evil villain is never questioned. Creating a character with a sympathetic PoV can be as much about manipulating the readers as anything else; controlling their emotional reactions, subverting their expectations to heighten drama, all of these things and more can go into it.

 

Understanding and manipulating tropes like these, in a rational and logical way that has nothing whatsoever to do with ones personal opinions and ideas, is a powerful tool for any author.

[Bryy]

Some users seem to be going way above the call of duty to try to "prove" that the devs are pro-discrimination.