Let's talk class balance....

[MoxyWoo]

I think this actually stemmed from dnd 3.5 class tier talk back in the day.

 

Its not that any of the classes can't beat the game, its just the some of the classes clearly bring more to the table than others with versatility, tricks, better role (tank, dps, support) and similar.

 

Personally, I love my main PC paladin as its my first playthrough but recognize that many of the bugs, stacking issues, limited use of abilities, etc, really made it a niche class that needs to be built around.  I.e.  It needed careful and heavy optimization to equal a badly built fighter, barbarian, chanter, or monk where as most times I think those 4 semi tank classes get a free pass at being good.  

 

Anyway, Exoduss, I agree that there doesn't need to be a heavy amount of optimization in most cases, but the paladin and ranger do need to be built specifically to be good and making a mistake unlike the other ones is pretty unforgiving in those classes.  From the pet, to the faith/conviction, to the first skill pick even at the beginning without good meta knowledge its hard to make them "good" tier.

Edited April 16, 2015 by MoxyWoo

[Longknife]

Okay .. so Ranger and Paladin has been with me since first playtrough in every team i made on every difficulty , is something wrong with me or all this class balance discussion is based on air ? its not about 1 character its about your team composition more than anything in this game i couldnt ever take a fighter over paladin in my teams , just because i run them ranged and marksman heavy and paladin just does better job in that team , i dont really understand the need of THE BEST TANK FIGHTER , when my paladin and chanter does the tanking job without any problems and gives ton of utility to the team ? Yes if i made a team with 1 tank or with 4 melee i probably would pick fighter , but thats not because paladin or xxxx is bad tank but because fighter makes that composition better ... it feels like people are comparing only Class X with Class Y but you can have 6 classes in your party , also the game seems to be soloable on hardest of the difficulties so its not a matter of class balance is bad because i cant get trough the game if i use class Y , so where is the problem ? Why Strategy and Character builds forum is littered with class balance stuff and thats the only thing people want to talk about seriously ... 

 

Ranger is more or less fine, it's merely a matter of people arguing that whatever a Ranger can do, a Rogue can arguably do just as well and has more flexibility. Ranger carries it's weight, it's just in comparison to Rogue it's sort of a "why use this" question.

 

Paladin is just not going to pull it's weight at all if it's an NPC, and even then it's pretty lackluster. Take your Paladin spot, replace it with anything else (try Monk or Barb) and see what happens.

[Sanctuary]

Talking about class tiers is pretty strange, because the difficulty really matters the most.  On anything below hard (at least), Wizards seem to play second fiddle to pretty much everyone other than the Chanter until around level 9.  Below hard, there's not really enough enemies for their CC or damaging AoE to really matter.  Once you start playing on at least hard though, they really start pulling ahead.  Their basic, Arcane Assault really starts getting a ton of mileage, where it was pretty much useless before.  Also, both Chilling Fog and to a lesser (but not by much) extent Slicken are two of the best level 1 spells in the game, from the start and until the end.

 

I do think the Cipher is strong too, but I don't really think they are as OP as some claim, or even "top tier" until they get Amplified Wave, but then that's just cheese mode.  Up until then, they are extremely strong support characters that can do more than adequate ranged damage (which is not equal to a ranged Rogue, depsite claims to the contrary).  Funny thing?  I think Hard/PotD groups with 2x Wizards and 1x Cipher is way stronger than a group with 0-1 Wizards and 2+ Ciphers.

 

My strongest group so far has been:

Fighter - tank (but not 3 Might, even if their overall damage is still not really a factor)
Priest - duh

2x Wizard - CC/damage (one of which uses blasts, the other specializes on shock damage and uses self-buffs and Cloudpiercer)

Ranged Rogue

Cipher

 

Ironically, the damage between the bow Wizard, Cipher and Ranged Rogue were pretty close until around level 8 where the Rogue started pulling ahead.  This was using the +50% XP requirement per level mod though where they remained at lower levels for a much longer period.

 

I don't really understand the hype for the Druid.  Their wider AoE on like the only four spells you'll ever really use doesn't really matter that much.  Their most useful spells are also the shock based that don't have friendly fire.  Otherwise, they have a whole lot of spells that are just sitting there taking up space.  If they didn't have Beetle's Shell or Plague of Instects, I'm not sure why I should really care about them at all.  A Wizard offers way more control, the best debuffs for fights that matter and are definitely no slouches for damage either.

Edited April 26, 2015 by Sanctuary

[Kaigen42]

I don't really understand the hype for the Druid.  Their wider AoE on like the only four spells you'll ever really use doesn't really matter that much.  Their most useful spells are also the shock based that don't have friendly fire.  Otherwise, they have a whole lot of spells that are just sitting there taking up space.  If they didn't have Beetle's Shell or Plague of Instects, I'm not sure why I should really care about them at all.  A Wizard offers way more control, the best debuffs for fights that matter and are definitely no slouches for damage either.

 

I got a lot of mileage out of the Druid's ice spells in my PotD playthrough. Winter Wind's narrow, long cone shape + push makes for a great opener and your Druid can stand behind your tanks while delivering it, and Blizzard and Hail Storm have great AoEs. Then again, I didn't have a Wizard in the party, so my substitute for AoE CC in a lot of fights with spot CC with the Cipher and burn down everyone with AoEs (though Calling the World's Maw and Embrace the Earth-Talon could serve that role as well). I didn't use the flame spells much unless against enemies weak to fire.

 

They're also a great source of efficient healing, especially once you get Moonwell. I suspect that the extent to which Druids feel useful depends on how much you're already relying on Wizards and Priests. They do things distinct from what those two classes provide, but if you have all of them, the Druid might feel redundant.

[Climhazzard]

If you use it properly, plan your battles around using it, ectopsychic echo is very OP.  A lot of cipher abilities are mediocre, but they have great abilities available through most of the game and their gameplay mechanics let them use their good abilities as often as they are able.

 

Wizards are great for PotD because of Eldritch aim, but druid is preferred for earlier difficulties, at least for me.

[Blovski]

 

I don't really understand the hype for the Druid.  Their wider AoE on like the only four spells you'll ever really use doesn't really matter that much.  Their most useful spells are also the shock based that don't have friendly fire.  Otherwise, they have a whole lot of spells that are just sitting there taking up space.  If they didn't have Beetle's Shell or Plague of Instects, I'm not sure why I should really care about them at all.  A Wizard offers way more control, the best debuffs for fights that matter and are definitely no slouches for damage either.

No small amount is the variety of damage types druids have available at any one time in any spell level. At level 1 they have Fire, Cold, Shock, Pierce and Slashing. At level 2 they add in Corrosive and Raw (and I think Crushing, unless Twin Stones is third level). Also, healing. Basically a druid can always, always hit the enemy's lowest DR. They benefit a lot from Eldritch Aim potions. Wizards probably have better CC.

[Kaigen42]

If you use it properly, plan your battles around using it, ectopsychic echo is very OP.  A lot of cipher abilities are mediocre, but they have great abilities available through most of the game and their gameplay mechanics let them use their good abilities as often as they are able.

 

Wizards are great for PotD because of Eldritch aim, but druid is preferred for earlier difficulties, at least for me.

 

Going off what Blovski says, one of the things I like about this game is that you can make Eldritch Aim potions, and on top of that, you can make Scrolls of Paralysis. So if you don't want to take a Wizard in your party for whatever reason, you can expend resources to supply the critical elements you might be missing.

 

Now if only there were scrolls for the higher level Prayer against X Priest spells. I almost went back and got Durance for the Death Knight Raedric and his Fampyr Friends fight.

[MadDemiurg]

Cipher is indeed slightly below ranged rogue on weapon damage, however if you throw at least some aoe spells from time to time easily pulls ahead in terms of damage done. If you spam CC 24/7 you bet you'll deal less damage. However even lower level stuff like soul shock can easily do 100+ total damage per cast. What/when you use depends on your tactics/party composition. Tbh I don't think ranged rogue pulls his weight in a party (melee rogue might if you build around him). Wizards indeed have more nova potential than ciphers and make harder fights easier. Druids have a lot of CC and damage and can make decent offtanks if you build them like that without wasting spells on it, unlike melee wizard. They have a lot of crap spells, but each level has a few very strong ones. If you use them as frontline, stuff like winter wind or L4 wave (which is a huge duration CC) come into play more often. Buffed up druid can permastunlock the whole encounter. They also have shorter duration petrify that targets reflex, which is often the weaker save for tough mobs. Personally I'd prefer wizard + druid over 2x wizards, because that offers more options. Casters are all about identifying enemy weakness and if you found one, 2x is not really needed.

Edited April 26, 2015 by MadDemiurg

[Sanctuary]

Cipher is indeed slightly below ranged rogue on weapon damage, however if you throw at least some aoe spells from time to time easily pulls ahead in terms of damage done. If you spam CC 24/7 you bet you'll deal less damage. However even lower level stuff like soul shock can easily do 100+ total damage per cast. What/when you use depends on your tactics/party composition. Tbh I don't think ranged rogue pulls his weight in a party (melee rogue might if you build around him). Wizards indeed have more nova potential than ciphers and make harder fights easier. Druids have a lot of CC and damage and can make decent offtanks if you build them like that without wasting spells on it, unlike melee wizard. They have a lot of crap spells, but each level has a few very strong ones. If you use them as frontline, stuff like winter wind or L4 wave (which is a huge duration CC) come into play more often. Buffed up druid can permastunlock the whole encounter. They also have shorter duration petrify that targets reflex, which is often the weaker save for tough mobs. Personally I'd prefer wizard + druid over 2x wizards, because that offers more options. Casters are all about identifying enemy weakness and if you found one, 2x is not really needed.

 

I don't ever use them as just a "CC bot", because it would otherwise be an unfair comparison.  I wouldn't however, simply have them doing nothing but damage at all times because it's wasting their utility.  A paralyze/root or mass flank is much more important to the group as a whole; which makes it harder to judge their overall contribution.  But similar could be said of Priest buffs.  And I do toss in Mind Blades and make liberal use of Soul Shock (when applicable).  They still don't pull ahead of the Rogue however.   But I guess if you want to micromanage the hell out of your Cipher and use nothing but Ectopsychic Echo (which takes forever to setup) just to inflate what they are actually doing, while actually slowing down group progress; more power to you.

 

I understand what you're saying about the Wizard/Druid combo, but on my current playthrough I was trying to use one of the Wizards primarily as a bow Wizard.  So far that hasn't really been what he's been used for, yet he's still 2nd place in overall damage done (Rogue is only 8% higher), but that is counting all of the AoE stuff, not single target.  Although with haste and other buffs up, he's still pretty damn close.  The reason to go Ranged Rogue anyway is because I use it to pull from stealth and because it's simply not worth the effort to use in melee on Hard/PotD compared to a tank and all ranged group.  You spend way too much time with micro compared to simply killing.

 

I'm still not sold on the Druid though.  Outside of Moonwell, I really just used a few AoE spells, and I would rather start a fight with Chill Fog since it's so much easier for the group to focus fire down enemies that are slowly walking toward you, clustered (and usually just end up on the tank) than it is trying to hit them as they are pushed back.  Plus, it's not always easy to put the Druid right next to the tank, especially if you don't want to block whoever pulled on the way back (if it's not the tank).

 

Can you use a Druid as the sole healer?  No.  Can you use a Druid + Chanter combo to keep the group up?  Maybe, but you're just hurting yourself by not having a Priest, and if you have a Priest, you won't need the Druid for healing up until Moonwell.  Maybe I am actually being a bit unfair though since my comparison is a full custom group, while not ever using a Druid other than Hiravias.  But I simply wasn't impressed by his spell selection.  I kept using the same four spells through the entire playthrough with the occasional heal or damage reduction, but those were extremely rare instances.  I also had him use an Arbalest or stand behind the tank with the Tall Grass Pike.  Even with all of that, his damage wasn't so hot.

[b0rsuk]

I have barely dabbled with PotD so far - but aren't wizards the worst casting class on PotD ? I mean, the primary difference between PotD and hard is monsters get much better stats across the board. If they have much better stats, they're much harder to enchant. Like every crappy and unfair RPG system ever designed, PoE has saving throws for negative spells. Buffs don't ever have to pass a defense throw.

 

Priests have the most buffs among all casting classes. Druids are second. Wizards are last. Does this mean  Priest > Druid > Wizard on PotD ?

 

What's wrong with Druid as the sole healer ?? He has several healing spells, and good buffs like woodskin.

Edited April 26, 2015 by b0rsuk

[Kaigen42]

I'm still not sold on the Druid though.  Outside of Moonwell, I really just used a few AoE spells, and I would rather start a fight with Chill Fog since it's so much easier for the group to focus fire down enemies that are slowly walking toward you, clustered (and usually just end up on the tank) than it is trying to hit them as they are pushed back.  Plus, it's not always easy to put the Druid right next to the tank, especially if you don't want to block whoever pulled on the way back (if it's not the tank).

Can you use a Druid as the sole healer?  No.  Can you use a Druid + Chanter combo to keep the group up?  Maybe, but you're just hurting yourself by not having a Priest, and if you have a Priest, you won't need the Druid for healing up until Moonwell.  Maybe I am actually being a bit unfair though since my comparison is a full custom group, while not ever using a Druid other than Hiravias.  But I simply wasn't impressed by his spell selection.  I kept using the same four spells through the entire playthrough with the occasional heal or damage reduction, but those were extremely rare instances.  I also had him use an Arbalest or stand behind the tank with the Tall Grass Pike.  Even with all of that, his damage wasn't so hot.

 

YMMV, but the way I used Winter Wind was by setting up a custom formation with two frontliners spaced one square apart and the Druid between and one row behind. Since Winter Wind is a narrow cone, he can easily fire it from between and behind the frontliners and still have some play with the angles (unlike Fan of Flames or Autumn's Decay, which basically requires the caster to be exposed on a flank). Any enemies that resist the push or come running in will still be caught by the frontliners. You do have to hold your allies back at first to keep them from running into the cone, but by the time the enemy manages to engage you, they'll be pretty softened up.

 

Druid can absolutely function as the healer in a group. I got through PotD with Druid heals, Lay on Hands, and the occasional Restore Light Endurance from spellbound gloves. Nature's Vigor and Nature's Balm are powerful healing spells, much more powerful than the broken tooltips for HoT/DoT effects indicate. The way I see it, if you have a Priest and a Druid in the same party, the Druid should handle healing duties aside from the occasional emergency heal so that the Priest can save his spells for the game-changing buffs they can provide.

[Blovski]

 

Cipher is indeed slightly below ranged rogue on weapon damage, however if you throw at least some aoe spells from time to time easily pulls ahead in terms of damage done. If you spam CC 24/7 you bet you'll deal less damage. However even lower level stuff like soul shock can easily do 100+ total damage per cast. What/when you use depends on your tactics/party composition. Tbh I don't think ranged rogue pulls his weight in a party (melee rogue might if you build around him). Wizards indeed have more nova potential than ciphers and make harder fights easier. Druids have a lot of CC and damage and can make decent offtanks if you build them like that without wasting spells on it, unlike melee wizard. They have a lot of crap spells, but each level has a few very strong ones. If you use them as frontline, stuff like winter wind or L4 wave (which is a huge duration CC) come into play more often. Buffed up druid can permastunlock the whole encounter. They also have shorter duration petrify that targets reflex, which is often the weaker save for tough mobs. Personally I'd prefer wizard + druid over 2x wizards, because that offers more options. Casters are all about identifying enemy weakness and if you found one, 2x is not really needed.

 

I don't ever use them as just a "CC bot", because it would otherwise be an unfair comparison.  I wouldn't however, simply have them doing nothing but damage at all times because it's wasting their utility.  A paralyze/root or mass flank is much more important to the group as a whole; which makes it harder to judge their overall contribution.  But similar could be said of Priest buffs.  And I do toss in Mind Blades and make liberal use of Soul Shock (when applicable).  They still don't pull ahead of the Rogue however.   But I guess if you want to micromanage the hell out of your Cipher and use nothing but Ectopsychic Echo (which takes forever to setup) just to inflate what they are actually doing, while actually slowing down group progress; more power to you.

 

I understand what you're saying about the Wizard/Druid combo, but on my current playthrough I was trying to use one of the Wizards primarily as a bow Wizard.  So far that hasn't really been what he's been used for, yet he's still 2nd place in overall damage done (Rogue is only 8% higher), but that is counting all of the AoE stuff, not single target.  Although with haste and other buffs up, he's still pretty damn close.  The reason to go Ranged Rogue anyway is because I use it to pull from stealth and because it's simply not worth the effort to use in melee on Hard/PotD compared to a tank and all ranged group.  You spend way too much time with micro compared to simply killing.

 

I'm still not sold on the Druid though.  Outside of Moonwell, I really just used a few AoE spells, and I would rather start a fight with Chill Fog since it's so much easier for the group to focus fire down enemies that are slowly walking toward you, clustered (and usually just end up on the tank) than it is trying to hit them as they are pushed back.  Plus, it's not always easy to put the Druid right next to the tank, especially if you don't want to block whoever pulled on the way back (if it's not the tank).

 

Can you use a Druid as the sole healer?  No.  Can you use a Druid + Chanter combo to keep the group up?  Maybe, but you're just hurting yourself by not having a Priest, and if you have a Priest, you won't need the Druid for healing up until Moonwell.  Maybe I am actually being a bit unfair though since my comparison is a full custom group, while not ever using a Druid other than Hiravias.  But I simply wasn't impressed by his spell selection.  I kept using the same four spells through the entire playthrough with the occasional heal or damage reduction, but those were extremely rare instances.  I also had him use an Arbalest or stand behind the tank with the Tall Grass Pike.  Even with all of that, his damage wasn't so hot.

 

I'm doing a PotD run with Druid as sole healer atm (Wizard Tank, Fighter Tank, Warbow Rogue, Arquebus/Hunting Bow Ranger, Druid and dual stilettos Cipher). It's working ok. Probably suboptimal compared to priests but at level 6 I've not really had trouble.

[MadDemiurg]

 

Cipher is indeed slightly below ranged rogue on weapon damage, however if you throw at least some aoe spells from time to time easily pulls ahead in terms of damage done. If you spam CC 24/7 you bet you'll deal less damage. However even lower level stuff like soul shock can easily do 100+ total damage per cast. What/when you use depends on your tactics/party composition. Tbh I don't think ranged rogue pulls his weight in a party (melee rogue might if you build around him). Wizards indeed have more nova potential than ciphers and make harder fights easier. Druids have a lot of CC and damage and can make decent offtanks if you build them like that without wasting spells on it, unlike melee wizard. They have a lot of crap spells, but each level has a few very strong ones. If you use them as frontline, stuff like winter wind or L4 wave (which is a huge duration CC) come into play more often. Buffed up druid can permastunlock the whole encounter. They also have shorter duration petrify that targets reflex, which is often the weaker save for tough mobs. Personally I'd prefer wizard + druid over 2x wizards, because that offers more options. Casters are all about identifying enemy weakness and if you found one, 2x is not really needed.

 

I don't ever use them as just a "CC bot", because it would otherwise be an unfair comparison.  I wouldn't however, simply have them doing nothing but damage at all times because it's wasting their utility.  A paralyze/root or mass flank is much more important to the group as a whole; which makes it harder to judge their overall contribution.  But similar could be said of Priest buffs.  And I do toss in Mind Blades and make liberal use of Soul Shock (when applicable).  They still don't pull ahead of the Rogue however.   But I guess if you want to micromanage the hell out of your Cipher and use nothing but Ectopsychic Echo (which takes forever to setup) just to inflate what they are actually doing, while actually slowing down group progress; more power to you.

 

I understand what you're saying about the Wizard/Druid combo, but on my current playthrough I was trying to use one of the Wizards primarily as a bow Wizard.  So far that hasn't really been what he's been used for, yet he's still 2nd place in overall damage done (Rogue is only 8% higher), but that is counting all of the AoE stuff, not single target.  Although with haste and other buffs up, he's still pretty damn close.  The reason to go Ranged Rogue anyway is because I use it to pull from stealth and because it's simply not worth the effort to use in melee on Hard/PotD compared to a tank and all ranged group.  You spend way too much time with micro compared to simply killing.

 

I'm still not sold on the Druid though.  Outside of Moonwell, I really just used a few AoE spells, and I would rather start a fight with Chill Fog since it's so much easier for the group to focus fire down enemies that are slowly walking toward you, clustered (and usually just end up on the tank) than it is trying to hit them as they are pushed back.  Plus, it's not always easy to put the Druid right next to the tank, especially if you don't want to block whoever pulled on the way back (if it's not the tank).

 

Can you use a Druid as the sole healer?  No.  Can you use a Druid + Chanter combo to keep the group up?  Maybe, but you're just hurting yourself by not having a Priest, and if you have a Priest, you won't need the Druid for healing up until Moonwell.  Maybe I am actually being a bit unfair though since my comparison is a full custom group, while not ever using a Druid other than Hiravias.  But I simply wasn't impressed by his spell selection.  I kept using the same four spells through the entire playthrough with the occasional heal or damage reduction, but those were extremely rare instances.  I also had him use an Arbalest or stand behind the tank with the Tall Grass Pike.  Even with all of that, his damage wasn't so hot.

 

You don't even need to use stuff like ectopsychic echo to be ahead as a cipher. I use if only vs very tough targets (where the setup is actually worth it). Mind blades are garbage on POTD, just a waste of focus. Tbh just soul shock spam easily pulls cipher ahead of rogue on low levels and mind lance/amplified wave at high levels. I usualy use mine as 50% CC/50% damage spells or so and they still deal more damage. That's not counting the damage stuff like ringleader can do, which is not registered (but can be huge).

 

Melee has much higher innate dps, plus in case of rogues reckless assault, which is pretty major. Yeah, you need more micro to pull it off, but the rewards are also bigger. I'm usually running an arbalest/pike combo, switching to pike when it's appropriate (dw would deal even more damage, but much riskier and needs your whole party to facilitate pretty much). Ranged rogue OTOH has like 10-20% dps advantage over a ranged cipher if you count weapon only, which is easily outmatched with spells.

 

For what it's worth in my recent party run which I used for a break for soloing I have the following chars: PC paladin, currently 6.9K damage (large chunk is scrolls and spellbind items, because high accuracy, might and int) armed with guarding rapier, Arbalest/Pike Rogue - 13.6k (would be lower if I went for ranged only for sure), Offtank monk - 15k, also does a lot of tanking, Hunting bow (:D) ranged cipher - 17k, gonna switch to blunderbuss later ofc, Ranger (for now with warbow, final weapon not yet decided) - 11.6K, Arbalest Priest - 6.7K. These numbers usually heavily depend on playstyle ofc.

 

As for healers, you don't need healing at all for the most part. If you need healing, you're not using your CC/buffs right. Even priest is not there for the healing (and for what it's worth, Druid's spells actually heal more). Druid also deals heavy aoe damage with spells - both DoT and burst. If you're not using druid's damage spells - well, your choice. L2 blizzard for instance is stronger than any wiz L3 aoe damage spell (fireball is more spammy if you don't care about burining casts though). Wiz is better at cc/utility, even though druid has some fun CC option like wave (15 sec prone aoe with high int) and relentless storm (pretty much permastunlock if you buff accuracy).

 

I have barely dabbled with PotD so far - but aren't wizards the worst casting class on PotD ? I mean, the primary difference between PotD and hard is monsters get much better stats across the board. If they have much better stats, they're much harder to enchant. Like every crappy and unfair RPG system ever designed, PoE has saving throws for negative spells. Buffs don't ever have to pass a defense throw.

 

Priests have the most buffs among all casting classes. Druids are second. Wizards are last. Does this mean  Priest > Druid > Wizard on PotD ?

 

What's wrong with Druid as the sole healer ?? He has several healing spells, and good buffs like woodskin.

You can still buff the **** out of your accuracy and by mid levels almost nothing will resist your spells (also eldritch accuracy). Wiz also has strong conjured weapons and damage dealing summon (phantom). I'd say wiz becomes even better on PotD since stuff like mass confuse becomes more actual for dealing with huge mobs of enemies.

Edited April 26, 2015 by MadDemiurg

[Climhazzard]

I have barely dabbled with PotD so far - but aren't wizards the worst casting class on PotD ? I mean, the primary difference between PotD and hard is monsters get much better stats across the board. If they have much better stats, they're much harder to enchant. Like every crappy and unfair RPG system ever designed, PoE has saving throws for negative spells. Buffs don't ever have to pass a defense throw.

 

Priests have the most buffs among all casting classes. Druids are second. Wizards are last. Does this mean  Priest > Druid > Wizard on PotD ?

 

What's wrong with Druid as the sole healer ?? He has several healing spells, and good buffs like woodskin.

 

 

No because on PotD accuracy becomes very important and Wizards have better accuracy thanks to Eldritch aim.

[b0rsuk]

No because on PotD accuracy becomes very important and Wizards have better accuracy thanks to Eldritch aim.

 

 

My point exactly ! Buffs always hit.

[MadDemiurg]

 

No because on PotD accuracy becomes very important and Wizards have better accuracy thanks to Eldritch aim.

 

 

My point exactly ! Buffs always hit.

 

It's irrelevant as long as you have good hit rate. Which is possible to have you just need to know enemy resistances and some combos. None of the buffs (even devotions of the faithful) are as gamechanging as some of the wiz CC. But devotions are good for buffing up the wizard  . Overall, If I had to pick only 1 caster in PotD party, I would probably pick priest. Priest + Wizard are one of the strongest combos for dealing with tough fights though.

Edited April 26, 2015 by MadDemiurg

[Climhazzard]

I wouldn't want to try going through PotD with just buffs, you really want that CC, area of effect damage, and debuffing as well, but it only works if you have decent accuracy.

 

In general I prefer druids over wizards because of the grimoire mechanic and the fact that wizards don't get many spell picks when they level up, but for PotD that accuracy buff helps a lot.

Edited April 26, 2015 by Climhazzard

[Sanctuary]

You can still buff the **** out of your accuracy and by mid levels almost nothing will resist your spells (also eldritch accuracy). Wiz also has strong conjured weapons and damage dealing summon (phantom). I'd say wiz becomes even better on PotD since stuff like mass confuse becomes more actual for dealing with huge mobs of enemies.

 

Slicken, Expose Vulnerabilities, Confusion, Essential Phantom and Call to Slumber are pretty much the top of the class spells that don't really have an equivalent.  Cipher has a few skills that are comparable, but the problem is a) casting time, b) they seem to get resisted more and c) Focus only allows typically for two casts in succession before needing to shoot your gun and pray you get the focus you need, and d) by that point, enemies can often be a bit more spread out than you want for your abilities, which almost all have a much smaller radius compared to Wizard spells. 

Of course, that's prior to Amplified Wave.  But you're still talking level 11.  Their biggest use is Mental Binding/Tenuous Grasp until then.

 

On a completely different note, what do you guys think of the Wizard buffs out of combat mod?  It just lets you prebuff before a fight...like you could in all of the previous IE type games.  I haven't personally used it yet, but I do think it would make Melee/Bow focused Wizards way more competitive and a fun alternative build.

Or do you think that's somehow an unfair advantage, and that they should actually spend 5-8s self-buffing during combat?

Edited April 26, 2015 by Sanctuary

[MadDemiurg]

 

You can still buff the **** out of your accuracy and by mid levels almost nothing will resist your spells (also eldritch accuracy). Wiz also has strong conjured weapons and damage dealing summon (phantom). I'd say wiz becomes even better on PotD since stuff like mass confuse becomes more actual for dealing with huge mobs of enemies.

 

Slicken, Expose Vulnerabilities, Confusion, Essential Phantom and Call to Slumber are pretty much the top of the class spells that don't really have an equivalent.  Cipher has a few skills that are comparable, but the problem is a) casting time, b) they seem to get resisted more and c) Focus only allows typically for two casts in succession before needing to shoot your gun and pray you get the focus you need, and d) by that point, enemies can often be a bit more spread out than you want for your abilities, which almost all have a much smaller radius compared to Wizard spells. 

Of course, that's prior to Amplified Wave.  But you're still talking level 11.  Their biggest use is Mental Binding/Tenuous Grasp until then.

 

 

Actually I wasn't debating but rather defending wizard's power there . As for Ciphers, their spells may "seem" to be resisted more to you, but actually a lot of their spells have higher accuracy and later on they have more ways to buffs their accuracy as well. Few good cipher CC you've missed prior to level 11: Mind Wave (needs proper positioning, but usually not a big deal), Puppet master, Ringleader. Wiz still wins in aoe CC and utility. Would be weird if he didn't. Cipher wins in spammability of his abilities.

Edited April 26, 2015 by MadDemiurg

[Sanctuary]

 

 

You can still buff the **** out of your accuracy and by mid levels almost nothing will resist your spells (also eldritch accuracy). Wiz also has strong conjured weapons and damage dealing summon (phantom). I'd say wiz becomes even better on PotD since stuff like mass confuse becomes more actual for dealing with huge mobs of enemies.

 

Slicken, Expose Vulnerabilities, Confusion, Essential Phantom and Call to Slumber are pretty much the top of the class spells that don't really have an equivalent.  Cipher has a few skills that are comparable, but the problem is a) casting time, b) they seem to get resisted more and c) Focus only allows typically for two casts in succession before needing to shoot your gun and pray you get the focus you need, and d) by that point, enemies can often be a bit more spread out than you want for your abilities, which almost all have a much smaller radius compared to Wizard spells. 

Of course, that's prior to Amplified Wave.  But you're still talking level 11.  Their biggest use is Mental Binding/Tenuous Grasp until then.

 

 

Actually I wasn't debating but rather defending wizard's power there . As for Ciphers, their spells may "seem" to be resisted more to you, but actually a lot of their spells have higher accuracy and later on they have more ways to buffs their accuracy as well. Few good cipher CC you've missed prior to level 11: Mind Wave (needs proper positioning, but usually not a big deal), Puppet master, Ringleader. Wiz still wins in aoe CC and utility. Would be weird if he didn't. Cipher wins in spammability of his abilities.

 

 

Another issue regarding "class balance" is how level nine and eleven are game changers for Druids, Wizards and Priests.  You no longer have to worry nearly as much about saving spells.  Once you hit level nine, the Cipher won't be casting too much more than either of those classes, unless you are fighting something that is taking a really long time.  Until then, the Cipher is the Energizer Bunny of casters, but the gap is shorter at nine, and closed at eleven.  But then you'll barely even need anything but Amplified Wave every other encounter at that point.

 

Balance in general in this game is really odd, on any difficulty.  PotD in general is harder in an inflated kind of way, but even Normal and Hard seem really off to me.  Right now I'm using the +50% XP requirement per level mod because on my previous playthrough I actually hit level twelve as soon as I hit Act 3.  The game felt kind of broken since I had all of this power, was level capped and still had a ways to go before finishing the game.  With the mod, things felt somewhat more balanced, but it still doesn't feel quite right. 

 

Early game is a pain largely due to shades/phantoms/low accuracy, but it actually feels like things are gradually improving.  Yet always around Act 3, either at level 8 or level 12, it feels like your power just skyrockets.  I guess itemization is the culprit here more than anything else though.  Still, I feel like the vanilla XP gains are too much for those that like to do everything, although I don't believe 50% more XP is actually where the game needs to be.  I think 35% - 40% would probably be a more accurate number.  I am halfway through Act 3 and only one character has hit level 10 yet.  That's also counting the ridiculous XP gained from all of the available bounties too.

Edited April 26, 2015 by Sanctuary

[MadDemiurg]

 

 

 

You can still buff the **** out of your accuracy and by mid levels almost nothing will resist your spells (also eldritch accuracy). Wiz also has strong conjured weapons and damage dealing summon (phantom). I'd say wiz becomes even better on PotD since stuff like mass confuse becomes more actual for dealing with huge mobs of enemies.

 

Slicken, Expose Vulnerabilities, Confusion, Essential Phantom and Call to Slumber are pretty much the top of the class spells that don't really have an equivalent.  Cipher has a few skills that are comparable, but the problem is a) casting time, b) they seem to get resisted more and c) Focus only allows typically for two casts in succession before needing to shoot your gun and pray you get the focus you need, and d) by that point, enemies can often be a bit more spread out than you want for your abilities, which almost all have a much smaller radius compared to Wizard spells. 

Of course, that's prior to Amplified Wave.  But you're still talking level 11.  Their biggest use is Mental Binding/Tenuous Grasp until then.

 

 

Actually I wasn't debating but rather defending wizard's power there . As for Ciphers, their spells may "seem" to be resisted more to you, but actually a lot of their spells have higher accuracy and later on they have more ways to buffs their accuracy as well. Few good cipher CC you've missed prior to level 11: Mind Wave (needs proper positioning, but usually not a big deal), Puppet master, Ringleader. Wiz still wins in aoe CC and utility. Would be weird if he didn't. Cipher wins in spammability of his abilities.

 

 

Another issue regarding "class balance" is how level nine and eleven are game changers for Druids, Wizards and Priests.  You no longer have to worry nearly as much about saving spells.  Once you hit level nine, the Cipher won't be casting too much more than either of those classes, unless you are fighting something that is taking a really long time.  Until then, the Cipher is the Energizer Bunny of casters, but the gap is shorter at nine, and closed at eleven.  But then you'll barely even need anything but Amplified Wave every other encounter at that point.

 

Yeah, well, cipher still has the advantage of using their higher level powers on per encounter basis, as well as being competent with weapons, but if the level cap goes up to like 15 in expansion... Per encounter phantom/confuse/devotions of the faithful etc :D. Right now it's still more of less even. AW, being as OP as it is, still doesn't win some of the harder battles by itself.

[Voltron]

 

 

 

 

You can still buff the **** out of your accuracy and by mid levels almost nothing will resist your spells (also eldritch accuracy). Wiz also has strong conjured weapons and damage dealing summon (phantom). I'd say wiz becomes even better on PotD since stuff like mass confuse becomes more actual for dealing with huge mobs of enemies.

 

Slicken, Expose Vulnerabilities, Confusion, Essential Phantom and Call to Slumber are pretty much the top of the class spells that don't really have an equivalent.  Cipher has a few skills that are comparable, but the problem is a) casting time, b) they seem to get resisted more and c) Focus only allows typically for two casts in succession before needing to shoot your gun and pray you get the focus you need, and d) by that point, enemies can often be a bit more spread out than you want for your abilities, which almost all have a much smaller radius compared to Wizard spells. 

Of course, that's prior to Amplified Wave.  But you're still talking level 11.  Their biggest use is Mental Binding/Tenuous Grasp until then.

 

 

Actually I wasn't debating but rather defending wizard's power there . As for Ciphers, their spells may "seem" to be resisted more to you, but actually a lot of their spells have higher accuracy and later on they have more ways to buffs their accuracy as well. Few good cipher CC you've missed prior to level 11: Mind Wave (needs proper positioning, but usually not a big deal), Puppet master, Ringleader. Wiz still wins in aoe CC and utility. Would be weird if he didn't. Cipher wins in spammability of his abilities.

 

 

Another issue regarding "class balance" is how level nine and eleven are game changers for Druids, Wizards and Priests.  You no longer have to worry nearly as much about saving spells.  Once you hit level nine, the Cipher won't be casting too much more than either of those classes, unless you are fighting something that is taking a really long time.  Until then, the Cipher is the Energizer Bunny of casters, but the gap is shorter at nine, and closed at eleven.  But then you'll barely even need anything but Amplified Wave every other encounter at that point.

 

Yeah, well, cipher still has the advantage of using their higher level powers on per encounter basis, as well as being competent with weapons, but if the level cap goes up to like 15 in expansion... Per encounter phantom/confuse/devotions of the faithful etc :D. Right now it's still more of less even. AW, being as OP as it is, still doesn't win some of the harder battles by itself.

 

 

What he said. I found Ciphers OP in party, but solo... not at all. There are other classes which are much more powerful in what they are capable of dish out.

 

Imo Cipher is not a problem. Imo other classes are worse in design. For example the whole camping supply system (which I stoped using thanks to IE mod long time ago) is totally out of place with per rest spell system for casters. Paladin auras buffs and radius are so small that it sucks. Rouges are not rouges really- no backstabing, hit and run smooth fun. Druids shapeshifts are underwhelming unless you download mods that boost them a little and make them last full fight duration. Etc. etc.

 

Seems like many ideas were cool but they lost some time in process and didn't execute them well. That is of course my opinion.

[Jimmysdabestcop]

Its actually weird Rogues have Backstab at all. The way Sneak Attack works that is the true backstab and it works in melee or range. They should just remove the rogue backstab talent and add a per encounter rogue only poison talent or some kind of throwing talent. That would be kind of cool.

[Sanctuary]

 

What he said. I found Ciphers OP in party, but solo... not at all. There are other classes which are much more powerful in what they are capable of dish out.

 

Imo Cipher is not a problem. Imo other classes are worse in design. For example the whole camping supply system (which I stoped using thanks to IE mod long time ago) is totally out of place with per rest spell system for casters. Paladin auras buffs and radius are so small that it sucks. Rouges are not rouges really- no backstabing, hit and run smooth fun. Druids shapeshifts are underwhelming unless you download mods that boost them a little and make them last full fight duration. Etc. etc.

 

Seems like many ideas were cool but they lost some time in process and didn't execute them well. That is of course my opinion.

 

 

I hate the whole resting mechanic in general in this game, although I don't believe 4x is that bad, but the 2x is just ridiculous, especially on PotD.  I don't know what they were thinking.  It's not actually fun or strategic, because if you have the patience to do it, you can bypass it by simply abusing Inns if you really wanted to.  It just seems like they wanted to add in "depth" with it, but it just makes the game tedious and specific classes a slog/weak until the higher levels where the mechanic doesn't even really matter for the most part.

[Empyron]

It's stupid. The Camping Mechanics. :/ 

 

Speaking of stupid mechanics. . .  I think Strongholds should be different based on the PC's class.