Do Chanters scale right?

[cctobias]

I want to preface this by saying Chanter are a decent class, they are useful and viable to use in the game as a whole. 

 

But from a just standpoint of analyzing and comparing classes I don't really see how the Chants and Invocations scale correctly.

 

Now you may wonder what I mean by scale.  If examine the other casters they get more of a caster "resource" each level.  Either more focus for a cipher or more spell casts per rest/encounter for druid/priest/wizard.

 

However chanter do not get anything more as far as chants or invocations as they level.

 

Compounding this the higher level invocations actually take even longer.

 

Let us take a cipher for a second once you hit level 2 you can cast two level 1 powers right after another since you have 20 focus to start a fight but a 5th level power will cost 30 focus and you would need to be level 4 or above to cast it without regening focus.

 

Now Invocations follow a similar pattern higher level invocations take more Phrases.  OK fine.  But chanters get no "extra resource".  So we have one detrimental pattern without the a balancing beneficial pattern.

 

So, for example, you could somehow adjust how the linger vs base ratio works as you level or you could adjust how many phrases are needed for invocations as you level to have a commensurate beneficial pattern that maintains a hierachical resources usage (in this case time/speed) while also providing more of the resource.

 

 

When I look at Chanter I don't see anything that really makes up for this severe penalty compared to other casters.  Yes they do have higher deflection and accuracy, but they also can't do anything but fight for at least 3 Phrases, so they kind of need that.  Especially in higher levels when Wizard etc start getting 4-8 casts per encounter.

 

So it seems to me that Chanters somewhat mechanically flawed in comparison to other casters.

[Xionanx]

Yeah, I think Chanter needed to get a base "Chant Point" based on time chanting, not chants completed, it would alleviate this particular issue with chanters.

 

I also think chanters should have been able to maintain chant points between fights if they weren't used in the last fight

[Grand_Commander13]

Chanters would be stupid-OP if they could summon two ogres at the start of a tough fight.

 

As it is, the better phrases taking longer to go through is something of an automatic balancer. Do you want the better passives or do you want more spells cast?

[Ganrich]

Level 3 chants are among the most powerful spells in the game.

 

+5 to might, con, and resolve for 30 Seconds. +5 to Dex, perception, and intellect for 30 seconds. Go into character generation and go up to 15 from 10 on those attributes and see what it does.

 

Summon a drake. The AoE frost does great damage. So on and so Forth.

 

I think changers need some good talents to allow them a more active playstyle. However, if you shorten their time to build too much then their invocatios will likely be nerfed.

 

I think a neat talent idea to make them more interesting is a talent that once per encounter they can cast from a scroll without consuming the scroll.

Edited April 5, 2015 by Ganrich

[cctobias]

Chanters would be stupid-OP if they could summon two ogres at the start of a tough fight.

 

As it is, the better phrases taking longer to go through is something of an automatic balancer. Do you want the better passives or do you want more spells cast?

 

Note that I am not proposing a beneficial "extra resource" pattern for chanters.  There could be a lot of implementations for such a thing.

 

But I would like to know if people agree a) this is lacking and b) that it is an issue that it is lacking.

 

The only real argument I can see for it not being necessary is that invocations are just that powerful.  But frankly this is complete bunk on its face.  The lvl 1 invocations cannot possible measure up to wizards or druis 4 1st level spell per encounter. 

 

Whatever implementation of a beneficial pattern there would be would probably have to somehow maintain at least some wait time before getting an invocation off.  Or alternately only affect a lower level of invocations.  I dunno.

 

But the first step is to agree whether or not there is a problem to begin with.  I can't come up with a good so justify that there is no problem.

[cctobias]

Level 3 chants are among the most powerful spells in the game.

 

+5 to might, con, and resolve for 30 Seconds. +5 to Dex, perception, and intellect for 30 seconds. Go into character generation and go up to 15 from 10 on those attributes and see what it does.

 

Summon a drake. The AoE frost does great damage. So on and so Forth.

 

I think changers need some good talents to allow them a more active playstyle. However, if you shorten their time to build too much then their invocatios will likely be nerfed.

 

I think a neat talent idea to make them more interesting is a talent that once per encounter they can cast from a scroll without consuming the scroll.

 

Crowns for the Faithful buffs three stats by a large degree as well.  The 3rd level invocations are pretty on par with 6th level spell.  Sure they are nice.  Some of the summons are very nice even the early phantom is very nice.   Cipher even is capable of quite large stat buffs.

 

But a Priest who cast Crowns for the Faithul Immediately and then chain casts 4 1st level spell is way far ahead of the chanter who hasn't even built up enough phrases to cast the level 3 invocation Buff AND when he does won't even have done as much.

 

And if the chanter is using levle 3 chants the situation is even worse as they take longer to chant but count for the same number of Phrases.

 

The priest comes out far ahead in the later levels when these strong abilities are available.  Doing far more in far less time and a lot of casts being per encounter as well.

[Lasci]

Phrases are longer because they're significantly more powerful. If you want to chant lackluster, level one phrases for the sake of getting out your invocations quickly, then that's an absolutely viable choice to make.

[Darkpockets]

I've been wondering, recently, if some of the Chanter-related discontent I've been sensing on these forums might be alleviated by tying phrase lengths to Intellect. By which I mean, first of all, increasing linger durations. This is something that seems to have been intended from launch, based on ability descriptions, but obviously hasn't been implemented thus far.

 

What if a high Intellect stat reduced phrase durations by the same percentage that it increased their linger durations? The overall uptime of chant buffs, this way, would stay roughly the same as it is now, and of course any Chanter in a situation where the repetition of one particular buff is beneficial would still be able to riff on a given phrase to his heart's content. But for Chanters who like crafting multi-phrase chants to take advantage of their overlapping synergy, a high INT would now make this an even more viable strategy.

 

Granted, this seems like it might be tricky to code. It also might be too far afield from Obsidian's intentions with the Chanter, as a reliable caster with unlimited but circumstantially restricted resources. But it seems to me that in terms of game balance, it wouldn't be a ludicrous shift. Summons, for instance (which seem universally regarded as the most powerful Chanter Invocations), might enter the fray earlier (if the Chanter in question has a high enough INT), but it's not as if the ability to build up phrases more quickly would mean a battlefield flooded with drakes or ogres; the extant one-per-caster cap on summons has that covered. And the other Chanter invocations, while useful and fun, don't seem maddeningly powerful enough when compared to the abilities of other classes that a somewhat quicker rate of phrase-generation would break anything. Even a Chanter with 18 INT under this hypothetical adjustment would still be getting off a single AoE Paralyze in the time it would take a Cipher to cast any number of similarly crippling CC abilities. 

 

It seems to me that all people want from their Chanters is to be a tad more proactive in the heat of battle. This might be a way to give them that without radically adjusting their unique casting mechanic.

[Ganrich]

Fair point on Crowns of the Faithful, but it does Perception, Intellect, and Resolve.  Interrupt/DR/Reflex, AoE/Duration/Will, and Concentration/DR/Reflex.  It is almost a purely defensive buff.  Duration might be somewhat useful for some extra DPS, and the increase to concentration will keep them from being interrupted and that will help DPS as well.  A lot of the overtime abilities are vague on how they work, but one could argue it would help a Frenzied Barbarian greatly.  Also, the Priest can only do it X amount of times a day depending on level.  Chanters don't get limitations like Priests.  

 

The 2 Chanter abilities either increase Might or Dex which will increase damage done in a fight.  They marginally increase durability of the character and they increase damage.  Not to mention the Drake summon, or the AoE Ice Invocation.  The AoE revive isn't much, but it will save you on a priest spell I guess.  

 

The Chanter isn't a pure caster.  That is the issue.  They are a PoE equivalent to a Bard.  Do Bards cast spells as powerful as Wizards, Sorcerers, or Clerics in D&D?  Nope.  I am not saying some tweaks aren't necessary, but I am saying that you should be careful what you wish for.  

 

The Chanters have 1 boon compared to the other casters though... they can swing a sword while chanting, they can cast from scrolls while chanting, they can fire a weapon while chanting, they can move while chanting, they can drink potions while chanting, etc.  

 

Their biggest issue isn't that they can't cast invocations often IMHO, but that they have little to do but auto-attack in between them.  All the other spellcasting classes get decent amounts of active Class Specific talents.  Interdiction, Holy Radiance, Arcane Assault, Grimoire Slam, the whip talents, etc.  The Druids get Spiritshift.  Chanters get Ancient Memory and Beloved Spirit.  Basically, a mediocre passive heal, and a seriously mediocre (post 1.03) buff to the passive heal.  Yawn.  

 

I personally think that Chant Counters would be fine if they gathered at a steady pace, but I think we will see the spells toned down.  However, the way the class is set up at present... if the level cap gets increased... future Chanter Invocations will never happen in a fight.  So, a change will be necessary.  I don't know... I see both sides of this equation.  I guess I feel like, at present, we would be better suiting brainstorming ideas for some Chanter class talents than trying to change the way the class works.  Because right now their talents aren't good.  

 

The talent I mentioned previously that allows you to cast a Scroll once per encounter without consuming it would also make the talent Deep Pockets pretty awesome.  It would give the Chanter 4-6 spells that they could cast from.  Scrolls are a mix of Druid, Wizard, and Priest spells.  I think the only scrolls that should be exceptions are the unique scrolls (+3 to Mechanics, +3 to Lore, etc), and the Paralysis Scroll that has the stupidly HUGE AoE.  

[Infares]

Chanters would be stupid-OP if they could summon two ogres at the start of a tough fight.

 

As it is, the better phrases taking longer to go through is something of an automatic balancer. Do you want the better passives or do you want more spells cast?

Basically, that's why you get multiple chants. If you really need to stack chants quickly just to go for a fast invocation you can use a quick string of 5 level one chants and then hit up your summon, and then switch to your higher level chants.

[cctobias]

Fair point on Crowns of the Faithful, but it does Perception, Intellect, and Resolve.  Interrupt/DR/Reflex, AoE/Duration/Will, and Concentration/DR/Reflex.  It is almost a purely defensive buff.  Duration might be somewhat useful for some extra DPS, and the increase to concentration will keep them from being interrupted and that will help DPS as well.  A lot of the overtime abilities are vague on how they work, but one could argue it would help a Frenzied Barbarian greatly.  Also, the Priest can only do it X amount of times a day depending on level.  Chanters don't get limitations like Priests.  

 

The 2 Chanter abilities either increase Might or Dex which will increase damage done in a fight.  They marginally increase durability of the character and they increase damage.  Not to mention the Drake summon, or the AoE Ice Invocation.  The AoE revive isn't much, but it will save you on a priest spell I guess.  

 

The Chanter isn't a pure caster.  That is the issue.  They are a PoE equivalent to a Bard.  Do Bards cast spells as powerful as Wizards, Sorcerers, or Clerics in D&D?  Nope.  I am not saying some tweaks aren't necessary, but I am saying that you should be careful what you wish for.  

 

The Chanters have 1 boon compared to the other casters though... they can swing a sword while chanting, they can cast from scrolls while chanting, they can fire a weapon while chanting, they can move while chanting, they can drink potions while chanting, etc.  

 

Their biggest issue isn't that they can't cast invocations often IMHO, but that they have little to do but auto-attack in between them.  All the other spellcasting classes get decent amounts of active Class Specific talents.  Interdiction, Holy Radiance, Arcane Assault, Grimoire Slam, the whip talents, etc.  The Druids get Spiritshift.  Chanters get Ancient Memory and Beloved Spirit.  Basically, a mediocre passive heal, and a seriously mediocre (post 1.03) buff to the passive heal.  Yawn.  

 

I personally think that Chant Counters would be fine if they gathered at a steady pace, but I think we will see the spells toned down.  However, the way the class is set up at present... if the level cap gets increased... future Chanter Invocations will never happen in a fight.  So, a change will be necessary.  I don't know... I see both sides of this equation.  I guess I feel like, at present, we would be better suiting brainstorming ideas for some Chanter class talents than trying to change the way the class works.  Because right now their talents aren't good.  

 

The talent I mentioned previously that allows you to cast a Scroll once per encounter without consuming it would also make the talent Deep Pockets pretty awesome.  It would give the Chanter 4-6 spells that they could cast from.  Scrolls are a mix of Druid, Wizard, and Priest spells.  I think the only scrolls that should be exceptions are the unique scrolls (+3 to Mechanics, +3 to Lore, etc), and the Paralysis Scroll that has the stupidly HUGE AoE.  

 

I don't really want to get into all of this post as it is simply beyond my quite simple point.  Please look at the parted I underlined/bolded above.

 

The is exactly right and highlights the basic logical flaw.

 

If we continue through the system to the logical conclusion, Invocations become literally unusable.   The system is inherently flawed.

 

As  I said in the first sentence of the OP I believe current chanters are an OK class that you can take along for the entire current campaign just fine.  Are they optimal? Dunno, don't care.  They are useful enough and fun enough.  Yeah they are obviously bard like.  Yeah they buff somewhat different than Priest (priest buffs might as well though and at level 2 just fine, and that becomes per encounter).

 

We can argue back and forth about the relative merits of Priest vs Chanter buffs.  Personally having gone through the lists  I think Priests buffs are at least as good, blessing buffs all defense not just 2 like a chanter level 1 chant.  Chanters are obviously the best summoners.  Whatever.  But that isn't the point.  This simply doesn't change the fact that the chanter design is missing a critical design feature that exists in every other casting class.

 

That the logical progression of the system just can't really work, probably at level 4, shows its flawed.  10 second chants? with 6 phrase invocatinos?  Doing level 4 chants and level 4 invocations would be 60 frigging seconds to get one off!  That start to get kind of absurd guys....

 

So as a chanter hits level 15 16 whatever they get .... unusable crap at level 4 with everything previous behaving EXACTLY the same with no way to make it better in anyway but a Druid gets even more uber spells that are just as easy to get off as any other and even more uses for his previous spells.  It just doesn't add up.

 

 

The trend for chanters is the following:

 

Previous things - no improvement at all

Later things - longer and longer until they are useless from a practical standpoint.

 

 

This is a bad trend.  This should be admited.  Its not an emergency or anything, but the class simply can't work in its current form at say level 20.

Edited April 5, 2015 by cctobias

[Ganrich]

I get you. I would highlight your comment "It's not an emergency". I guess that is how I think about it. At this point in time I am hesitate to knee jerk changes. I know you aren't suggesting that. I am just trying to be the voice of reason. I remember when the backer beta first released, and how insanely OP Chanters were, and I don't want that again. I think a couple things could be done mechanically to make this better.

 

1) One issue is that some Invocations within a spell level are less useful than others. I think most can agree that summons are among the most useful. So I think their current Chant costs are fair. However, I think the flat Chant cost dictated by level could be removed. Level 1 Invocations like Thrice was she wronged could be dropped to 1 Chant required. It does pretty low damage, but being able to be cast more quickly would make it somewhat decent. While something like the 3 grub crush invocation (which has a conditional that an emery corpse is on the ground) could require 2 Chants. Instead of solely balancing these abilities based on their numbers I think balancing their value based on how frequently you can use them is a better idea.

 

2) If I have 4 Chants, and I use an invocation that costs 3... I should have 1 Chant remaining. Currently, you lose all 4 chants so there is no reason to not use a level 2 invocation in most situations. They already have a dead zone after an Invocation where they are not Chanting... Couple that with having to start back at 0 is really punishing.

 

3). A few ideas on gaining counters faster. The current issue is you either use level 1 phrases, or you don't cast invocations as frequently. I agree that this is flawed. I have a few ideas to toss out on this.

 

3a) give bonus effects or chant counters for mixing different level phrases. If you use a level 3 phrase (8 seconds) and then a level 1 phrase you gain an extra chant counter. If you move from a level 1 phrase to a level 2 then the level 2 then the level 2 phrase's cast time is reduced by 2 seconds and its linger is increased by 2. This would make higher level phrases not detrimental to getting invocations, and incentivize the use of lower level Phrases. You could also give bonus buffs/debuffs for mixing phrase levels within a chant.

 

3b) make chant counters gain every 4 seconds. To keep players from only using higher level phrases you force the next phrase to only be of a level lower. EG I start with a level 3 phrase, then I have to use a level 2, and then a level 1. Only after a level 1 phrase will I be able to use a max level (3 in this case) phrase again. This IMHO would be easier to implement, but much less interesting.

 

4). I still think Chanters need some talents to make them more active in combat.

 

These are just a few ideas. I have a few more swimming around that need a bit more time to develop. I think the major issue to speeding up how quickly the counters build is the summons. IMHO wizards and Druids should be summoning, but weaker summons than the Chanter currently has. I don't know. The class is powerful, but it has issues for sure.

[cctobias]

Well I kind of wanted to avoid discussing specific implementations but I want to point out the following,

 

Once you admit that the current trend will fail then you have two options:

 

1) don't continue the trend and then make up for it in some way, for example talents.  This could be in anyway, make them better fighters at later levels, give them talents

that boost the effect of a chant or invocation.  Whatever

 

2) alter the trend.  To do this I think a maximum practical time goal should  be established.  One of the "features" of chanters is  the choice between  fast weak buffs  and then getting to an invocation quickly or slower stronger buffs and getting to an invocation later.  You also have various permutation in between like fast chants to later but strong invocation.  

The first casualty of the flawed trend will be these "choices" as the trends gets worse and worse more and more permutations will become practically useless.  In my above example I picked the worst case for illustration slowest chant slowest invocation, but at some point medium chant + slowest invocation will become useless as well.  At some point chants become so prohibitively long that all invocations will be unlikely especially if you party has good damage.

 

Or some combination of the two.

 

In order to follow the second path we must establish at what point most parties would simply never use an invocation or the use of that invocation has limited use.  Summoning a drake when 80% of the encounter is dead is often kind of useless.

 

Personally I think the level 3 chants + level invocations(about 40 seconds to invoking) are already a long enough time period to be close to a useless permutation.  Some people will throw out summon etc.  If you want to summon as a cornerstone stactic you better be usiing level 1 chants or you are doing it really poorly; it takes half the time.

 

While I don't think its an emergency I do think we are already at the point where we are actually feeling the effect.

 

Invoking much past the 30-40 second mark is very anti-climactic.  I understand that part of the design of the chanter is that it is backloaded and not front loaded.  But we MUST admit there HAS to be a limit to this backloaded design.  It has a hard falloff.  It can literally be made useless.

 

Some people will say "Look if you want a quicker invocation just use lower level chants".  This does not address the issue.  If there is are no cases or only very rare case where I would use level 3 chants AND a level 3 invocation then our panoply of choices is already being abrevviated the system is already on the verge of collapsing and not working.

 

 

The point at which this happens is actually easier to pinpoint than may seem.  We simply need to have fairly wide agreement as to what time span is likely to have an invocation that has real use and what timespan is not.  The only wrinkle there is it does depend on party makeup, the stronger the damage the lower this number becomes (for the most part).

 

I would say 30 seconds is the edge of what is a good idea and the level 3 stuff is already pushing that.  Others may disagree but since the chanter system is completely invariant that is all we need.  That number.  After than you can decide on path #1 or #2.  

[Magrusaod]

I think people are so focused on the Invocation aspect of Chanters, they are ignoring the fact you can just build a tank chanter, and grant aura's to the party while holding the lane up front. Which is super useful and expends no daily resources. In the event a fight doesn't end up a stomp in your favor and it lasts longer than expended, you have a perk, BAM invocation gets dropped. 

I will agree though, the increase in amount of Chant counts needed to use higher level Invocations, coupled with the duration of the higher level chants is just detrimental to later game play with this class. If you want to use a 3rd tier Chant and then a 3rd tier Invocation, it's a 40 second wait IIRC? Which is silly.

[Ceranai]

Ummmm.... u srs??? its obviously a balance thing, you should run the less powerful chants until you have a summon up then switch to the more potent ones. If you could summon a drake in 20 seconds thats easily worth having less good buffs, i see no reason to give the chanter both a super powerful summon and super powerful chants.

 

Im not sure how they would solve for higher levels but i think that its about a choice, and i agree its an inherent flaw in their design, fact is that summons are so powerful that there has to be some high cost associated with them, the issue is that tying this high cost to time is a terrible cost mechanism, it doesnt stop a chanter heavy team kiting for 60 seconds then casting 6 dragon kings or whatever the next level of summons will be so the cost is still essentially 'free' from a resource point of view, the only thing it costs the player is patience and frustration. maybe have a blood magic type mechanic that speeds it up?

 

I mean compare the phrases resource to the wound resource, monk spells are averagely powerful and spammable if you have lots of wounds but the you have a limited number of wounds per battle, phrases power very powerful spells and are unlimited per encounter so the only thing they have done to balance them is increase the times involved.

 

I think a neat way to do it would be to add a haste mechanic, you could sacrifise a percentage of you movement speed and defences to speed up your chants, this would allow the addition of more powerful spells at the cost of survivability rather than patience, it would mean you cant just kite or tank until your summon is available you would have to protect your chanter while they build up phrases. This would make your chanter weak and given the way mobs beeline for your most fragile character this would be a nice trade off.

Edited April 5, 2015 by Ceranai

[b0rsuk]

You have to look at the whole picture.

 

Chanters get the best combat stats out of any spellcaster.  The fact they can't cast in rapid succession cuts both ways - they are also barely hampered by high Recovery, so are very comfortable in heavy armour. Infinite spells in battles, and the resource charges by itself almost always - I think Terrified or Paralyzed might interfere with that.

 

You also conveniently omit phrases, some of which are quite powerful, like 10 frost/shock Damage Reduction for free (you don't even spend time casting it!).

 

My current party leans on the side of glass cannons, even Eder. His only concessions to defense is Vigorous Defense and a large shield in one weapon set, often switched for a 2-hander, he wears medium armor and has 70+ deflection at level10. My typical opener is two Knockdowns (one from fox).  Fights rarely last long enough for a level2 Invocation now, and when they do it's sure nice to revive my glass cannons or summon ogres. My glass cannons have a Plan B.

 

Chanter gets bonuses to Lore, so if you wish you can cast spells, just from scrolls. A wizard or priest doesn't necessarily gain much from Lore, it doesn't expand his options and he doesn't have that much time to use scrolls anyway. A chanter uses an Invocation only once in a while, he has free time to smack stuff or use scrolls.

 

Everyone can do melee in my team, even Durance smacks shades with Whispers of Yewwood, has Aggrandizing Radiance and I'm about to pick up another talent for a total of +16 Sword accuracy. I'm not limited by HP of my tanks, I rotate my wounded. Eder is a competent Adventurer, so he can pull back and shoot stuff with the wand proccing Jolting Touch (Bloody Mess talent helps). So in a party like this even a chanter can fit many roles based on circumstances. Try holding a line with a priest or wizard. A druid just might, if he casts Nature's Terror.

 

Your scaling as a chanter is more powerful phrases. Level3 phrases can be used at the start of a fight, with no waiting. They still power up your resource.

[Daemonjax]

Do Bards cast spells as powerful as Wizards, Sorcerers, or Clerics in D&D?

 

Bards sucked in all older D&D editions, but they're pretty awesome in 5th edition.

[Incendax]

The solution is this:
Chants should grant a resource every 4 seconds of singing. Flat.

Edited April 6, 2015 by Incendax

[Ceranai]

The solution is this:

Chants should grant a resource every 4 seconds of singing. Flat.

that would fly in the face of the obvious design decision to make them more powerful chants longer, its a strategic choice, one of the few in the game. Its also why you get multiple chants and you can create your own custom chants, chants are so flexible its insane and honestly having now tested some of the high level invocations and chants it would be stupid if there wasnt some draw back to using them. I agree the mechanism could use some tweaking but given the power of summons it would be so dumb to be able to cast a drake every 20 seconds and be able to chant the fire aoe AND to be wearing full plate while doing it AND to be auto attacking at the same time. 

 

It would make chanters walking death machines that can tank and increase the health pool of the party infinitely with a never ending supply of drakes (unles your enemy can kill it in less than 20 seconds you can always refresh it.

[Epsilon Rose]

 

Do Bards cast spells as powerful as Wizards, Sorcerers, or Clerics in D&D?

 

Bards sucked in all older D&D editions, but they're pretty awesome in 5th edition.

 

Bards could be pretty aswome in 3.5 and they had a prc that could give them full casting in 10 levels while also giving them other stuff.

 

You have to look at the whole picture.

 

Chanters get the best combat stats out of any spellcaster.  The fact they can't cast in rapid succession cuts both ways - they are also barely hampered by high Recovery, so are very comfortable in heavy armour. Infinite spells in battles, and the resource charges by itself almost always - I think Terrified or Paralyzed might interfere with that.

 

You also conveniently omit phrases, some of which are quite powerful, like 10 frost/shock Damage Reduction for free (you don't even spend time casting it!).

 

My current party leans on the side of glass cannons, even Eder. His only concessions to defense is Vigorous Defense and a large shield in one weapon set, often switched for a 2-hander, he wears medium armor and has 70+ deflection at level10. My typical opener is two Knockdowns (one from fox).  Fights rarely last long enough for a level2 Invocation now, and when they do it's sure nice to revive my glass cannons or summon ogres. My glass cannons have a Plan B.

 

Chanter gets bonuses to Lore, so if you wish you can cast spells, just from scrolls. A wizard or priest doesn't necessarily gain much from Lore, it doesn't expand his options and he doesn't have that much time to use scrolls anyway. A chanter uses an Invocation only once in a while, he has free time to smack stuff or use scrolls.

 

Everyone can do melee in my team, even Durance smacks shades with Whispers of Yewwood, has Aggrandizing Radiance and I'm about to pick up another talent for a total of +16 Sword accuracy. I'm not limited by HP of my tanks, I rotate my wounded. Eder is a competent Adventurer, so he can pull back and shoot stuff with the wand proccing Jolting Touch (Bloody Mess talent helps). So in a party like this even a chanter can fit many roles based on circumstances. Try holding a line with a priest or wizard. A druid just might, if he casts Nature's Terror.

 

Your scaling as a chanter is more powerful phrases. Level3 phrases can be used at the start of a fight, with no waiting. They still power up your resource.

I think the "Infinite spells" thing is a bit misleading. While they technically could cast infinite spells, realistically, they're only going to get off one or two before the fights over, and even that's only for the longer fights.

 

Phrase power shouldn't be your only scaling, when it's only half the class and almost completely passive and visually inimpressive.

[Incendax]

 

The solution is this:

Chants should grant a resource every 4 seconds of singing. Flat.

that would fly in the face of the obvious design decision to make them more powerful chants longer, its a strategic choice, one of the few in the game. Its also why you get multiple chants and you can create your own custom chants, chants are so flexible its insane and honestly having now tested some of the high level invocations and chants it would be stupid if there wasnt some draw back to using them. I agree the mechanism could use some tweaking but given the power of summons it would be so dumb to be able to cast a drake every 20 seconds and be able to chant the fire aoe AND to be wearing full plate while doing it AND to be auto attacking at the same time. 

 

It would make chanters walking death machines that can tank and increase the health pool of the party infinitely with a never ending supply of drakes (unles your enemy can kill it in less than 20 seconds you can always refresh it.

 

It is perfectly acceptable to fly in the face of bad design decision. I am sure the people who designed it have every good intention, but that does not mean their choices are good choices by default. One of the biggest issues for chanters is contributing an invocation to a fight, because even on the hardest difficulty fights do not often last very long. As someone who has voiced concerns about the game not being difficult enough even on PotD, I am certain you understand. Ensuring that you gain a resource at 4 second intervals while chanting would go a long way to making the Chanter play smoother.

 

The summons are certainly going to be nerfed as is. You can count on it.

[Ceranai]

 

 

The solution is this:

Chants should grant a resource every 4 seconds of singing. Flat.

that would fly in the face of the obvious design decision to make them more powerful chants longer, its a strategic choice, one of the few in the game. Its also why you get multiple chants and you can create your own custom chants, chants are so flexible its insane and honestly having now tested some of the high level invocations and chants it would be stupid if there wasnt some draw back to using them. I agree the mechanism could use some tweaking but given the power of summons it would be so dumb to be able to cast a drake every 20 seconds and be able to chant the fire aoe AND to be wearing full plate while doing it AND to be auto attacking at the same time. 

 

It would make chanters walking death machines that can tank and increase the health pool of the party infinitely with a never ending supply of drakes (unles your enemy can kill it in less than 20 seconds you can always refresh it.

 

It is perfectly acceptable to fly in the face of bad design decision. I am sure the people who designed it have every good intention, but that does not mean their choices are good choices by default. One of the biggest issues for chanters is contributing an invocation to a fight, because even on the hardest difficulty fights do not often last very long. As someone who has voiced concerns about the game not being difficult enough even on PotD, I am certain you understand. Ensuring that you gain a resource at 4 second intervals while chanting would go a long way to making the Chanter play smoother.

 

The summons are certainly going to be nerfed as is. You can count on it.

 

If summons werent as game breaking as they are then i totally agree, one of several things could change for a 4 second rule to make any sense

 

1) Summons become less powerful

2) Have an upper limit cap on how many summons you can have per battle, the main problem with summons as I see it is that they are an INFINITE source of health for any battle meaning that unless te enemy can kill them faster than you can summon you have a never ending source of damage mitigaton, another way to solve this would be making subsequent summons progressively less powerful, after all if your phantom has died five times surely it should not come back with 50 HP a sixth time

3) have a compensatory mechanism for summon power, monks get infinite wounds only when they are taking damage making wounds a limited and sometimes risky resource, ciphers make up for focus by being much more squishy than other classes and cant just hide behind plate armor and a big shield and stay as effective for DPS, chants only cost time meaning that you can keep fighting forever if you have enough patience

[b0rsuk]

Actually I like the fact chanters are so delayed in use of their skills. It gives me something to look forward for in a fight.

 

In another thread people are complaining the game is not very tactical. Chanters are quite different from other classes and you don't go into a fight guns blazing, pre-casting etc (pre-casting in the context of PoE means casting at the start of combat). Having a chanter in a party gives me two options per fight:

- nuke them as fast as possible with other classes

- stall as much as possible and wait for chanter to turn the tide. This typically involves stacking protective enchantments and auras, which have a good synergy with summons.

 

Many of the suggested changes would bring Chanters closer to other, classic support casters. They would play more similar to them. If you want a classic support spellcaster, you know where to find it: Priest, Wizard, Druid. Leave Chanters distinct ! They have a unique playstyle and I wish this was the case for all of them.

 

The only thing worth fixing here is that chanters can literally cast forever by exploiting kiting. But I would try to tackle this by addressing kiting itself, for example having a stamina meter for running, applying fatigue before combat ends etc. You would be guaranteed to get no combat fatigue until end of combat if it lasts less than a minute, for example. Stalling by spending finite resources (spell slots on other party members, potions...) - okay. But infinite kiting shouldn't be possible. This is hard to fix without limiting freedom and flexibility of Chanters, one thing I love about them. You could make chants work similar to Consecrated Ground, but with a huge radius(heals over time in an area but doesn't move with caster). That way Chanters would still have some freedom, but couldn't run too far in a single direction.

[DigitalCrack]

A suggestion was made for more class talents and I would agree with that. Phrase/innvocation is perfectly fine I think people just want more active abilities to use in the meantime. Which chanter is a good class to use to pick up talents like envenomed strike or other nuetral active abilities since they can actually use them without taking away from their class abilities.

[cctobias]

Being overpowered or underpowered is irrelevant to the actual logical flaw of the system.  The current system is simply flawed.  Even people who like the delay must at some point admit at some point that once the delay reaches a certain length things become worthless.  How about this,  we put in a special invocation and it works like this.  If you wait for 40 hours you can cast the invocation and automatically clear whatever current map you are on of all monsters instantly.

 

That would be the most overpowered ability in the game and only crazy people would use it.  We could instead have an invocation that takes 40 hours and only summon fluffy bunnies.  This would be one of the least powerful abilities in the game and again only crazy people would use it.   Functionally the same and independent of power.  The power is a moot point since no one would use or could have cleared the map in far less time anyway.  Fine I will grant you they could not have otherwise have gotten fluffy bunnies (or could they ...)

 

Obviously this is absurb.  But the absurd is useful for illustrative purposes.  Yes summons are strong.  Yes the current times are part of the way the class was balanced.

 

None of this changes the consequences of the way the numbers will work out.  Its flawed and it will fail if its extended.