Didn't realize I was paying to join late beta...

[Guest BugsVendor]

In majority of the posts defending obsidian I see no logic what so ever.

 

The truth is they knowingly released a broken product to start getting $ before they finished the job.

 

There is every reason to complain about this.

 

Sure we like the games they make. But remember they are a company and they are profiting financially out of this transaction.

 

So if you ship a product people expect it to work. This one clearly doesn't.

 

ive seen games release in much, much worse states, anyone remember fallout new Vegas, or the most recent Sim city, or Empire total war lol

 

compared to those this game is a clean as can be lol

 

Non argument. Just because other companies are screwing up doesn't mean it is now OK to do so. I protest.

 

I honestly can't see a problem, if Obsidian are releasing patches to fix these bugs. The game has been out for a week. A week! I agree that some of the bugs that people are encountering can be show-stoppers and the fact that I can't see my characters' cloaks (mac user) is irritating, but as far as I can tell, these things are being addressed, and quickly too (if they're fixed with the patch, anyway!).

 

As I see it, when you encounter a bug, check the technical support forum to see if it's been raised. If it has, great, post that you encountered it too. If not, start a thread and explain what happened. Isn't that how these things get fixed? Complaining on forums that you'll never buy a game from developer A or developer B ever again doesn't help anyone. Except to vent about how frustrating and terrible it is. First world problems, I suppose.

 

Testing games is a paid job. I don't want to be a tester. I want to be a consumer of this good. I want to play and have a good time not alt-tab every 5 minutes to technical forum. It is good they are working on a patch but they still released a game that is broken. And they knew full well too. It was planned to release it in the state that it is and than use the fans to do the testing for them. It is an offensive business model.

 

 

 

I honestly can't see a problem, if Obsidian are releasing patches to fix these bugs. The game has been out for a week. A week!

PoE isn't that much of a problem, just part of the bigger picture . IF the patch fixes (hopefully) the major bugs then Obsidian did decent work.

 

The real problem is, that there is no game release anymore, which has no BUGs. And it seams to get worse every year with more and more game-breaker BUGs . And this BAD status has reached the "standart". And that there are still people, who praise/defend this BAD status-quo . Sometimes with stupid try-hard arguments like "just a game" or "it's still new" (35+ YEARS is not "new"!!!! (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MUD)).

 

We, the custumer, should NOT and NEVER accept this behavior!

 

 

Eh it is not that big of a problem. The reason games are released with bugs is that it is really really hard to make software this complicated bugfree. That is reality, and I am not in the business of screaming outrage at reality. Game makers already work absurdly long hours. I am not a sadist. Heck I am impressed and grateful anybody works in that crazy industry.

 

So long as it is good enough and gets patched in a reasonably decent time frame I am satisfied. The far more important issue is what it looks like after all the patches are done, was it a good and creative and fun product? So what during the first few days/weeks/months after release it had issues.

 

 

Software is not black magic. Almost every single device you can get at walmart is complicated. Cars are complex and they work. Planes are complex and they work. Why do we have completely different logic for game industry than any other ? Who cares if they work long hours? So other people don't work hard on this planet?

 

It is simple. They sell it, I expect it to work.

 

This game being creative and fun ( which it is ) has nothing to do with the fact that it is WRONG to pretend the product is finished when it isn't.

 

They could have announced an opened beta for a month but they didn't. So consumers expect it to work.

Edited April 3, 2015 by BugsVendor

[Nortalud]

 

 

Just 2 weeks of further bug-testing would have make for a greatly better release. And to have released with some of the kinds of bugs in PoE that are there hurts Obsidian revenue, not just in the immediate present, where loss could be tens of thousands of copies and more, but also from their future games. Word of mouth plays a big role, and now there are a lot of people who don't feel moved to give positive word of mouth, but maybe the opposite.

 

A delayed release could hurt Obsidian's revenue as well, especially when we seem to be in a time of CRPG resurgence. When releasing software saying "just two more weeks" is dangerous because you will never have a bug-free product on launch no matter how hard you try; just the larger group of players when compared to your beta testers and QA team will bring in new scenarios that you could not have thought of or possibly tested.

 

I agree that some of these bugs are serious, but saying that Obsidian should have delayed again to try and catch every issue while they have to consider competition, the cost to continue development and the financial state of their company (OE was planning on shutting down before POE) then it should be obvious as to why they released. If you're that hung up on buying buggy software, wait a few months before you purchase.

 

 

A fiercely competitive market and unstable revenue streams aren't the fault of the consumer and they're perfectly normal parts of a free market economy. Obsidian may have found themselves in a situation where they had no financially tenable solution other than to release a buggy game, but that doesn't mean that those of us buying it owe them some kind of "forgiveness".

 

We can empathize with their passion for making games and the challenging circumstances under which they have to operate while still holding them accountable for their shortcomings.

[Elerond]

 

 

 

Just 2 weeks of further bug-testing would have make for a greatly better release. And to have released with some of the kinds of bugs in PoE that are there hurts Obsidian revenue, not just in the immediate present, where loss could be tens of thousands of copies and more, but also from their future games. Word of mouth plays a big role, and now there are a lot of people who don't feel moved to give positive word of mouth, but maybe the opposite.

 

A delayed release could hurt Obsidian's revenue as well, especially when we seem to be in a time of CRPG resurgence. When releasing software saying "just two more weeks" is dangerous because you will never have a bug-free product on launch no matter how hard you try; just the larger group of players when compared to your beta testers and QA team will bring in new scenarios that you could not have thought of or possibly tested.

 

I agree that some of these bugs are serious, but saying that Obsidian should have delayed again to try and catch every issue while they have to consider competition, the cost to continue development and the financial state of their company (OE was planning on shutting down before POE) then it should be obvious as to why they released. If you're that hung up on buying buggy software, wait a few months before you purchase.

 

 

A fiercely competitive market and unstable revenue streams aren't the fault of the consumer and they're perfectly normal parts of a free market economy. Obsidian may have found themselves in a situation where they had no financially tenable solution other than to release a buggy game, but that doesn't mean that those of us buying it owe them some kind of "forgiveness".

 

We can empathize with their passion for making games and the challenging circumstances under which they have to operate while still holding them accountable for their shortcomings.

 

 

Games are pieces of art and they work as they creator intend them to work. So if there are bug it is just because they are part of their art and you are evil person if you ask them to edit their art work as that is censorship       

[Schakar]

Those are just the engines. They do not include actual gameplay or other assets.

 

And hey, since you can just download most of the code, I guess everyone can make huge video games now. After all, it was invented 35+ years ago. Gonna go download the code for Super Mario RPG now and use it to code a AAA rpg and release it on steam, it'll be easy!

 

So enlight us. WHAT is the difference between the core game code from today and a MUD code from 1975 if you take away the graphic?

It's some movement and animation code and the graphic engine ... which is not involved into something like the "save game crash bug" or "stats bug".

 

You really know nothing about software engineering, don't you?

 

The problem is, I do. While some of you seam to belive, software engineering is some super secret magic ...

 

 

For future reference though, lines of code != level of complexity.

 

Please stop making references to previous game engines and stating that since they have x lines of code, POE should be easy. You clearly don't understand how Software Development works, I'm almost convinced that you're just trolling now.

Changs of BUGs depends on two factors:

- number of code lines

- complexity of the code

And both aren't as insane as some of you seam to belive for computer games! Even less when we talk about SAVE GAME BUGs or ITEM STAT BUGs.

 

The most complex calculation is very likely the pathfinding (not so great)  and the graphic engine which seams to be bug-free.

[Nortalud]

 

The stakes are clearly vastly lower in game development than in many other industries, but none of the scenarios you describe above would be considered acceptable if occurred with an airline, or an automobile manufacturer, or a telecommunications provider.

 

I don't think "oops, **** happens!" is a reasonable defense for a professional, for-profit business of any description. Bugs like this are not the result of unforeseeable circumstances, they are the result of things like poor deadline planning, poor allocation of resources, poor project management, or even negligence/apathy on the part of the company. I don't think the latter is the case here, but regardless, it is foreseeable that a game may have major bugs and developers should and can take that into account ahead of time.

 

 

I suppose the bugs with Windows, web browsers, financial planning software, big data software, educational software, etc. etc. were my imagination? 

 

You have yet to provide an actual argument about how a normal and competent development is guaranteed to produce zero bugs, and how each bug is clearly the result of extraordinary incompetence. You have also not provided an argument about how developers are meant to 'take it into account', beyond doing a lot of Q&A, patching the game on Day 1 and then in Week 1, and postponing the game for polish. All of which has been done.

 

 

You answered your own question: do a lot of QA. Testing and bugfixing is an integral and ongoing part of the development process.

 

To again clarify, I'm talking about MAJOR bugs.

Producing complex software which is entirely bug-free isn't a reasonable proposition and I don't expect any company to be able to accomplish it. Producing complex software which is free of bugs that undermine the essential functions of said software for a significant portion of the user base is an entirely different matter and thousands of developers do it every year.

 

Edit: I also take issue with your use of the term "extraordinary incompetence". I never said I think these bugs were the result of "extraordinary incompetence". In fact, I think they were the result of regular old, bog standard, run-of-the-mill, everyday failure. In this case, that failure took the form of insufficient QA; whether that was the result of bad programming, unrealistic deadlines, poor managerial oversight, genuinely "incompetent" testers, or anything else is completely irrelevant.

 

Major flaws in a for-profit company's product shouldn't be excused, and in a free market economy, voicing one's unhappiness and "voting with your wallet" is absolutely the proper response.

 

(edited to correct aphorism in last paragraph)

Edited April 3, 2015 by Nortalud

[Elerond]

 

 

The stakes are clearly vastly lower in game development than in many other industries, but none of the scenarios you describe above would be considered acceptable if occurred with an airline, or an automobile manufacturer, or a telecommunications provider.

 

I don't think "oops, **** happens!" is a reasonable defense for a professional, for-profit business of any description. Bugs like this are not the result of unforeseeable circumstances, they are the result of things like poor deadline planning, poor allocation of resources, poor project management, or even negligence/apathy on the part of the company. I don't think the latter is the case here, but regardless, it is foreseeable that a game may have major bugs and developers should and can take that into account ahead of time.

 

 

I suppose the bugs with Windows, web browsers, financial planning software, big data software, educational software, etc. etc. were my imagination? 

 

You have yet to provide an actual argument about how a normal and competent development is guaranteed to produce zero bugs, and how each bug is clearly the result of extraordinary incompetence. You have also not provided an argument about how developers are meant to 'take it into account', beyond doing a lot of Q&A, patching the game on Day 1 and then in Week 1, and postponing the game for polish. All of which has been done.

 

 

You answered your own question: do a lot of QA. Testing and bugfixing is an integral and ongoing part of the development process.

 

To again clarify, I'm talking about MAJOR bugs.

Producing complex software which is entirely bug-free isn't a reasonable proposition and I don't expect any company to be able to accomplish it. Producing complex software which is free of bugs that undermine the essential functions of said software for a significant portion of the user base is an entirely different matter and thousands of developers do it every year.

 

 

What major bug you speak?

 

Bugs that leave your computer open to criminals? Bugs that let criminals steal your money from your bank account? Bugs that let criminals steal your credit card information? I didn't know that there are such bugs in PoE can you point where someone has found one of such?

[Horrorscope]

Here's something to consider...

 

Do you love gaming and want certain genre's ressurected and suppoted moving forward?

If so, then you are at a crossroads.

All the games down this path, say all the TB games to over the past two years.

If you review each one and I think every one. You were much further ahead jumping in 6-9 months after release. Bugs/Balance fixes with a cheaper price.

However, if we all do this for each game these will no longer be made.

Because reality is... these aren't coming out of the oven day one bug free, nicely balanced and low low pricing.

So how do we proceed?

Are we investing into the genre to be developed by understanding and accepting early day warts? Or we let it dry up again and try it all over again in 2025?

 

The silver lining is we will be getting their second itterations next go-round. We hope for a more mature product as the enigines won't be brand new, leassons will be learned etc. So perhaps we just need to accept what is happening. We have all these new 1.0 Strategy engines being built and we need to give them some leeway to grow.

 

And if you believe "well it should just be ready to go day one", I don't disagree, but it isn't planet Earth, so can you accept reality?

[termokanden]

My thinking is pretty much in line with Horrorscope's (fan of Overkill?).

 

I agree that it is not really the consumer's problem that software can be complicated to make, although I'd say be realistic and expect there to be at least a few minor bugs. Vote with your wallet as always. Despite the bugs (and yes the major ones are not acceptable but at least are being patched now), ultimately I'm still happy I paid for PoE. I want more games like this and so I voted YES with my wallet.

 

What major bug you speak?

 

Bugs that leave your computer open to criminals? Bugs that let criminals steal your money from your bank account? Bugs that let criminals steal your credit card information? I didn't know that there are such bugs in PoE can you point where someone has found one of such?

Good point. Remember Apple's goto fail? That was hilarious and sad all at once

 

Don't even get me started on SSL/TLS and its many failures. Goes to show we actually live with extremely serious bugs every day.

Edited April 3, 2015 by termokanden

[Amentep]

There is every reason to complain about this.

Sure, there is - particularly if a bug happens to you. There's a difference between complaining and asserting that Obsidian was in some sort of conspiracy to bilk money out of people by releasing a "broken" product though.

 

So if you ship a product people expect it to work. This one clearly doesn't.

Remember the Unistall Bug on POOLS OF RADIANCE (2001). The one that unistalled everything on your hard drive including the operating system? That was a broken product.

 

Remember the bug in ARCANUM: OF STEAMWORKS AND MAGICK OBSCURA (2001) that led to Quest Inventory items being permanently removed from your inventory so that you couldn't complete the critical path? I remember that one stopping me from playing the game.

 

Given the CTD reports (some which may be legit bug related rather than running on below spec hardware related) and I think the Raderic Hold bug that actually stop the player from being able to continue, I'd argue PoE falls more on the Arcanum side than the PoR2001 side, IMO.

[Nortalud]

Sure we like the games they make. But remember they are a company and they are profiting financially out of this transaction.

 

So if you ship a product people expect it to work. This one clearly doesn't.

 

 

Absolutely on target.

 

And let's be clear, we are talking about a product that doesn't "work" to the extent that a consumer could reasonably be expected to demand. We're not complaining about design choices with which we disagree, we're talking about core functionality that in many cases simply doesn't function.

[Horrorscope]

My thinking is pretty much in line with Horrorscope's (fan of Overkill?).

 

Bingo! Not many ever catch the reference.

[Nortalud]

 

What major bug you speak?

 

Bugs that leave your computer open to criminals? Bugs that let criminals steal your money from your bank account? Bugs that let criminals steal your credit card information? I didn't know that there are such bugs in PoE can you point where someone has found one of such?

 

 

I'd define a major bug as one which significantly impairs the core functionality of the software in question.

 

This is a CRPG. Its core functionality is to entertain. One of the ways it does so is through the fictional accumulation of power and abilities. There are multiple bugs with impair this and they are therefore "major".

[Elerond]

 

 

What major bug you speak?

 

Bugs that leave your computer open to criminals? Bugs that let criminals steal your money from your bank account? Bugs that let criminals steal your credit card information? I didn't know that there are such bugs in PoE can you point where someone has found one of such?

 

 

I'd define a major bug as one which significantly impairs the core functionality of the software in question.

 

This is a CRPG. Its core functionality is to entertain. One of the ways it does so is through the fictional accumulation of power and abilities. There are multiple bugs with impair this and they are therefore "major".

 

 

So bad writing is major bug?

[Nortalud]

 

There is every reason to complain about this.

Sure, there is - particularly if a bug happens to you. There's a difference between complaining and asserting that Obsidian was in some sort of conspiracy to bilk money out of people by releasing a "broken" product though.

 

 

I agree, there's no reason for me to think that these bugs were in any way intentional or malicious. But that doesn't necessarily mean they're acceptable.

 

Remember the Unistall Bug on POOLS OF RADIANCE (2001). The one that unistalled everything on your hard drive including the operating system? That was a broken product.

 

Remember the bug in ARCANUM: OF STEAMWORKS AND MAGICK OBSCURA (2001) that led to Quest Inventory items being permanently removed from your inventory so that you couldn't complete the critical path? I remember that one stopping me from playing the game.

 

 

Oh sweet jebus there were so many things wrong with those games. I never encountered the uninstall bug with PoR2k1, but I played it for less than two hours before giving up and getting a refund/exchange from whatever store I had purchased it at.

[Sleazebag]

 

Those are just the engines. They do not include actual gameplay or other assets.

 

And hey, since you can just download most of the code, I guess everyone can make huge video games now. After all, it was invented 35+ years ago. Gonna go download the code for Super Mario RPG now and use it to code a AAA rpg and release it on steam, it'll be easy!

So enlight us. WHAT is the difference between the core game code from today and a MUD code from 1975 if you take away the graphic?

It's some movement and animation code and the graphic engine ... which is not involved into something like the "save game crash bug" or "stats bug".

 

The entire coding language for one. And it is not "just some movement and animation and graphics" - where the hell do you think the gameplay comes from? If it was just that, all games would be walking simulators with nice graphics. But if you actually think you can use the code of a 70's MUD to make a AAA game, go ahead and try. Especially if you're talking about Colossal Cave Adventure, which is an incredibly simple game, even for a text adventure. I would say that even the most simple text adventures released on online indie stores are more complex than that game was. I seriously would love to see you use the code for a text prompt game to make a modern graphics-based game. Seriously. I am actually so flabbergasted at your statement that I feel like I'm being troll baited but whatever.

[Nortalud]

 

 

 

What major bug you speak?

 

Bugs that leave your computer open to criminals? Bugs that let criminals steal your money from your bank account? Bugs that let criminals steal your credit card information? I didn't know that there are such bugs in PoE can you point where someone has found one of such?

 

 

I'd define a major bug as one which significantly impairs the core functionality of the software in question.

 

This is a CRPG. Its core functionality is to entertain. One of the ways it does so is through the fictional accumulation of power and abilities. There are multiple bugs with impair this and they are therefore "major".

 

 

So bad writing is major bug?

 

 

If it's severe enough, yes, absolutely.

[Kal Adan]

What worries me are not bugs themselves, but how bugs are going to be fixed. I hope they will not expect from people who bought GOG version to download the whole 6 GB to patch their game?

Edited April 3, 2015 by Kal Adan

[Guest BugsVendor]

 

 

 

The stakes are clearly vastly lower in game development than in many other industries, but none of the scenarios you describe above would be considered acceptable if occurred with an airline, or an automobile manufacturer, or a telecommunications provider.

 

I don't think "oops, **** happens!" is a reasonable defense for a professional, for-profit business of any description. Bugs like this are not the result of unforeseeable circumstances, they are the result of things like poor deadline planning, poor allocation of resources, poor project management, or even negligence/apathy on the part of the company. I don't think the latter is the case here, but regardless, it is foreseeable that a game may have major bugs and developers should and can take that into account ahead of time.

 

 

I suppose the bugs with Windows, web browsers, financial planning software, big data software, educational software, etc. etc. were my imagination? 

 

You have yet to provide an actual argument about how a normal and competent development is guaranteed to produce zero bugs, and how each bug is clearly the result of extraordinary incompetence. You have also not provided an argument about how developers are meant to 'take it into account', beyond doing a lot of Q&A, patching the game on Day 1 and then in Week 1, and postponing the game for polish. All of which has been done.

 

 

You answered your own question: do a lot of QA. Testing and bugfixing is an integral and ongoing part of the development process.

 

To again clarify, I'm talking about MAJOR bugs.

Producing complex software which is entirely bug-free isn't a reasonable proposition and I don't expect any company to be able to accomplish it. Producing complex software which is free of bugs that undermine the essential functions of said software for a significant portion of the user base is an entirely different matter and thousands of developers do it every year.

 

 

What major bug you speak?

 

Bugs that leave your computer open to criminals? Bugs that let criminals steal your money from your bank account? Bugs that let criminals steal your credit card information? I didn't know that there are such bugs in PoE can you point where someone has found one of such?

 

 

Running out of arguments?

 

Major bug in this case is a show-stopper be it: Raedic's Hold, Missing Inventory, Having a tank in your party with 200+ deflection or a wizard with 100 inteligence...

 

Not to mention permanent loss of bonus stats if you double click on an item. DOUBLE CLICK. That's how hard it is to reproduce this bug.

 

This software has nothing to do with any of the situations you mentioned. It is a game. A broken one.

 

 

Here's something to consider...

 

Do you love gaming and want certain genre's ressurected and suppoted moving forward?

If so, then you are at a crossroads.

All the games down this path, say all the TB games to over the past two years.

If you review each one and I think every one. You were much further ahead jumping in 6-9 months after release. Bugs/Balance fixes with a cheaper price.

However, if we all do this for each game these will no longer be made.

Because reality is... these aren't coming out of the oven day one bug free, nicely balanced and low low pricing.

So how do we proceed?

Are we investing into the genre to be developed by understanding and accepting early day warts? Or we let it dry up again and try it all over again in 2025?

 

The silver lining is we will be getting their second itterations next go-round. We hope for a more mature product as the enigines won't be brand new, leassons will be learned etc. So perhaps we just need to accept what is happening. We have all these new 1.0 Strategy engines being built and we need to give them some leeway to grow.

 

And if you believe "well it should just be ready to go day one", I don't disagree, but it isn't planet Earth, so can you accept reality?

 

How about a different scenario? How about we as costumers of this games accept every single bug, every single poor release with opened hands and by 2025 you will be charged 200$ for software that won't even execute on day one. But that's not a problem because there is a patch next month.

 

I want obsidian to be successful. However releasing broken games, using their fan base as free unwilling testers is not a road to success.

 

 

There is every reason to complain about this.

Sure, there is - particularly if a bug happens to you. There's a difference between complaining and asserting that Obsidian was in some sort of conspiracy to bilk money out of people by releasing a "broken" product though.

 

So if you ship a product people expect it to work. This one clearly doesn't.

Remember the Unistall Bug on POOLS OF RADIANCE (2001). The one that unistalled everything on your hard drive including the operating system? That was a broken product.

 

Remember the bug in ARCANUM: OF STEAMWORKS AND MAGICK OBSCURA (2001) that led to Quest Inventory items being permanently removed from your inventory so that you couldn't complete the critical path? I remember that one stopping me from playing the game.

 

Given the CTD reports (some which may be legit bug related rather than running on below spec hardware related) and I think the Raderic Hold bug that actually stop the player from being able to continue, I'd argue PoE falls more on the Arcanum side than the PoR2001 side, IMO.

 

 

It has nothing to do with conspiracy and everything to do with popular business model today "cash first work later".

 

They made a concious decision of releasing a product that will need further patching. They surly already had (judging just from the features, icons, glossary tips and balance changes) a backlog of things to add before the release.

 

As to stuff you mentioned. Could they have screwed up even more ? Sure they could have erased my hd.

 

Still it has nothing to do with the fact that they released a product that was not ready for shipping.

[dirigible]

Anyone who thinks there's nothing wrong with releasing an unfinished game, or who doesn't think QA is vital to the video game industry, or who doesn't understand how Nintendo is relevant to this conversation needs to read up on their video game history.

[Nortalud]

 

I usually try to avoid making gripe posts, but my level of frustration and irritation with PoE is growing at such a rate that I kind of just have to let it out this time.

 

Despite being highly interested in a spiritual successor to the IE games of my halcyon youth, I didn't back the Kickstarter for PoE because I wasn't interested in playing a WIP/beta game. Instead, I bought the game a couple days after its official launch, but nevertheless, it feels like I'm playing a late beta version.

 

When literally not a single day can go by without me reading about or encountering a new major bug, I think it's fair to say that the game has launched in an unacceptable state. Disappearing passive bonuses from double-clicking to equip armor, endlessly stacking attributes from loading a saved game, disappearing focus regeneration from equipping an item designed specifically for the only class in the game which uses focus...

 

These are not bizarre, obscure bugs which only a small portion of the player base is likely to encounter, these are things which virtually every player is likely to encounter in the normal course of completing the game.

 

I'm still enjoying much of what PoE has to offer, but you can rest assured that I won't be making the mistake of paying full price for an Obsidian-developed game any time in the near future.

 

You haven't played a game since the 90's I take it.

 

 

Lazy troll is lazy

 

(See? I can make stupid, inflammatory posts which add nothing to the conversation too!)

[Elerond]

 

 

 

 

What major bug you speak?

 

Bugs that leave your computer open to criminals? Bugs that let criminals steal your money from your bank account? Bugs that let criminals steal your credit card information? I didn't know that there are such bugs in PoE can you point where someone has found one of such?

 

 

I'd define a major bug as one which significantly impairs the core functionality of the software in question.

 

This is a CRPG. Its core functionality is to entertain. One of the ways it does so is through the fictional accumulation of power and abilities. There are multiple bugs with impair this and they are therefore "major".

 

 

So bad writing is major bug?

 

 

If it's severe enough, yes, absolutely.

 

 

Then I would say that your use of word bug is such that most people will not understand what you actually mean.

 

Bug is generally understood to mean glitch in how software works, and what I have seen PoE only has quite minor glitches in its scripting and some bit more serious scripting problems that can in some cases force player to load the game. But nothing that seriously prevent most of the people playing the game. 

 

If you find game to be enjoyable because of those scripting glitches that is different from game having major bugs that would mean that there are fundamental problems in how game's code works and how it interacts with other software. Which are bugs that need to be fixed with hotfixes because they aren't just annoying but they posses threat for those who play they game or even have it installed. I would also consider bugs that prevent people playing game at all as major bugs as they mean that players didn't get  working product when they bought the game. But scripting errors that make some systems in game work differently to what they were described I would not ever call as major bug or scripting that don't always launch correctly.

 

But if you find game unenjoyable then that is unfortunate but sad reality when you buy entertainment as everyone has different tastes which means that every piece of entertainment don't work for them. If you feel that entertainment would had been more entertaining if it had higher production value that is fine opinion and you probably should look more AAA games which have much higher production values if you don't want risk you money on products with lower production value.

[Kimuji]

I think people forgot how bugged were some of the most legendary RPGs (or they didn't buy them when they came out before all the patches, mods, unofficial fixes etc.). The Baldur's Gate were not spared, Arcanum wasn't, the Fallout... ah yes Fallout 2 had quite a handful of game breaking bugs and it took more than a few weeks to ge rid of the most nasty ones (and some were never officially fixed). All these games are now considered as absolute classics but believe me they had bugs, tons of them.

 

Making a RPG is not like making a platformer or an action game, the level of complexity is of another scale. It is not a coincidence if RPGs in general are usually among the most bug riddled games by the time of their release.

Edited April 3, 2015 by Kimuji

[Serdan]

I, too, would be offended by Obsidian's evil, if I believed you can predict how several hundred thousand PCs would respond to your software, and that you totally know how many bugs your software has before you ship it, and if I believed non-PC software doesn't come with critical bugs.

The major bugs that people are complaining about have nothing to do with the hardware though, so that excuse seems a bit disingenuous.

[Nortalud]

 

 

 

So bad writing is major bug?

 

 

If it's severe enough, yes, absolutely.

 

 

Then I would say that your use of word bug is such that most people will not understand what you actually mean.

 

Bug is generally understood to mean glitch in how software works, and what I have seen PoE only has quite minor glitches in its scripting and some bit more serious scripting problems that can in some cases force player to load the game. But nothing that seriously prevent most of the people playing the game. 

 

If you find game to be enjoyable because of those scripting glitches that is different from game having major bugs that would mean that there are fundamental problems in how game's code works and how it interacts with other software. Which are bugs that need to be fixed with hotfixes because they aren't just annoying but they posses threat for those who play they game or even have it installed. I would also consider bugs that prevent people playing game at all as major bugs as they mean that players didn't get  working product when they bought the game. But scripting errors that make some systems in game work differently to what they were described I would not ever call as major bug or scripting that don't always launch correctly.

 

But if you find game unenjoyable then that is unfortunate but sad reality when you buy entertainment as everyone has different tastes which means that every piece of entertainment don't work for them. If you feel that entertainment would had been more entertaining if it had higher production value that is fine opinion and you probably should look more AAA games which have much higher production values if you don't want risk you money on products with lower production value.

 

 

Ok, we're really getting into the weeds here, but let me clarify even further.

 

Writing which is so bad as to significantly impair my enjoyment of a CRPG would be a major flaw.

Issues in systems or processes which significantly impair my enjoyment of a CRPG would be major bugs.

 

While technically distinct and of differing degrees of subjectivity, neither is acceptable.

 

(edited to omit majority of quoted wall o' text)

Edited April 3, 2015 by Nortalud

[Bayzent]

 

Lazy troll is lazy

 

(See? I can make stupid, inflammatory posts which add nothing to the conversation too!)

 

And yet I haven't used any Ad Homminem attacks against you, totally contrary to your response. Since there were faster internet connections we have had exactly the same thing everywhere, and yet you come here to actually complain about this in 2015, so what I can only really fathom from this is that you may not have played any game since the 90's.

 

It is kinda like me complaining that I can't run a modern game in MS-DOS.