Chanters can either buff party front or back, but not both?

[endolex]

When I read 'LARGE, AoE low-level buffs and debuffs' in the chanter's description, I thought "great, I can help and hinder across the entire battlefield with my chants!'

 

Not quite. The chant circles are really small, even with max INT, so if I stay at maximum range with a ranged weapon (playing an elf here), my chants do not even come close to reaching the melee camp (or enemies, for that matter).

 

So the way it is now, I have to decide if I want to be a melee chanter and buff the melee camp (and choose some debuff auras for enemies too) or be a ranged chanter and buff the ranged camp (and forget about debuffing enemies because the point of being a ranged fighter is staying the hell away from them, and the aura never reaches them).

 

So this greatly diminishes the effectiveness of any chants in my opinion. Is it really supposed to be this way?

 

Because 'forget chants, invocations is where the meat is' is really not that great if you have to wait three ore more turns before being able to cast anything useful and otherwise giving only slight buffs to half of your party at best, essentialy making you a mediocre fighter most of the time. The way I see it right now, Priests and Paladins have all the real buffs, and their limited spells per day don't matter much if you can rest anywhere anytime anyway.

[Hatred]

I cannot be sure but it 'seems' like int doesn't actually effect chants, just the spells chanters get. The linger effect doesn't get any longer for me, that I can say for certain.

[Emptiness]

 

Even the base radius of chant allows for a reasonable amount of separation between your front line and your back line, if you position the chanter in midfield.  With high Int (outer circle is radius with 24 Int) you could have your back line so far away from the front that they wouldn't even be able to hit the enemies that your front line is fighting.

[Faydark]

The answer currently is effectively "Yes". A single chanter cannot 100% debuff enemies and buff allies at the same time, due to Int not affecting the Linger duration of Phrases.

 

However, as Emptiness's screenshot shows, a single Chanter is more than able to buff all allies at the same time, if that's all you want to do.

[illathid]

The answer currently is effectively "Yes". A single chanter cannot 100% debuff enemies and buff allies at the same time, due to Int not affecting the Linger duration of Phrases.

 

However, as Emptiness's screenshot shows, a single Chanter is more than able to buff all allies at the same time, if that's all you want to do.

I thought INT did effect linger, it just isn't displayed on the chant screen?

[Concordance]

A single chanter not being able to affect both the enemies and allies sounds like a good thing, honestly. Since chants don't stack, this gives you a legitimate reason to have two chanters in a party.

[pi2repsion]

When I read 'LARGE, AoE low-level buffs and debuffs' in the chanter's description, I thought "great, I can help and hinder across the entire battlefield with my chants!'

 

Not quite. The chant circles are really small, even with max INT, so if I stay at maximum range with a ranged weapon (playing an elf here), my chants do not even come close to reaching the melee camp (or enemies, for that matter).

The rational man, upon observing this phenomenon, concludes, "perhaps I shouldn't stay at maximum range, then; This isn't a failure of the class, this is a failure of tactics: After all, the Chant circles are really, really, large, just not quite large enough to do what I want them to do".

 

So do the sensible thing like the rest of us who use ranged Chanters. Make a custom formation where the tanks and melee are in the front, the chanter in the middle, and the squishies in the back. Tadaa - the Chanter's HUGE AOE radius will now cover your entire party and everybody who is attacking the party in melee so long as you are using a high intelligence Chanter, and you have the added benefit that anybody bypassing your front line is likely to get caught up with the Chanter rather than a squishy while being directly in the line of fire of the squishies.

[Matuse]

I have Kana armed with a pistol, and Aloth and Durance with arquebuses, with the rest being melee. The shorter range of the pistol means that Kana positions himself about midway between the front and back, and his aura easily hits both.

[Gwadb]

 

The answer currently is effectively "Yes". A single chanter cannot 100% debuff enemies and buff allies at the same time, due to Int not affecting the Linger duration of Phrases.

 

However, as Emptiness's screenshot shows, a single Chanter is more than able to buff all allies at the same time, if that's all you want to do.

I thought INT did effect linger, it just isn't displayed on the chant screen?

 

I tested this using a 20 int character and a 3 int one, a first level chant only lasted 6 seconds on both, going by the buff duration on the character portrait. Even if int only affected linger the 20 int character should be getting an extra second or so off the 2 second linger and was not.

[endolex]

So how do I create a chanter with 24 INT and without severely hobbling them in other areas than being able to perform their core functionality? Since I'm trying to play a chanter as my main character, I'd like to have more dialogue options than just those provided by INT (apart from the fact that I don't feel like playing a 'superhuman genius level intellect' chanter to begin with - why Int affects chanter range and not Resolve is beyond me anyway). 16 INT should be more than enough for a 'highly recommended stat' at character creation (since Con and Res are recommended as well).

 

And no, I don't agree that being able to buff the whole party / debuff all enemies would be overpowered. The buffs are overall weak enough as it is, they don't to be limited even more in this way.

 

The problem is if I don't pick a very short ranged weapon I will always have to micromanage the positioning of the chanter for them to have any desired effect, because otherwise they will stop moving once they are in minimum range for their weapon. And I'm not the kind of player who likes to tell party members where to go every single encounter.

 

In the end, there is no point in the game where you are told these kind of things. You could very well pick a lot of phrases at character creation and leveling that you never get to use properly because of AoE circles being too damn small.

[Faydark]

 

 

The answer currently is effectively "Yes". A single chanter cannot 100% debuff enemies and buff allies at the same time, due to Int not affecting the Linger duration of Phrases.

 

However, as Emptiness's screenshot shows, a single Chanter is more than able to buff all allies at the same time, if that's all you want to do.

I thought INT did effect linger, it just isn't displayed on the chant screen?

 

I tested this using a 20 int character and a 3 int one, a first level chant only lasted 6 seconds on both, going by the buff duration on the character portrait. Even if int only affected linger the 20 int character should be getting an extra second or so off the 2 second linger and was not.

 

 

Yeah I did similar testing (among other chanter related stuff), results at https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/74003-chanter-chants-invocations-and-stats/?p=1616234 . Some others have confirmed this as well. It may be a bug, I don't know, haven't seen anything about it anywhere so far.

[pi2repsion]

So how do I create a chanter with 24 INT and without severely hobbling them in other areas than being able to perform their core functionality? Since I'm trying to play a chanter as my main character, I'd like to have more dialogue options than just those provided by INT (apart from the fact that I don't feel like playing a 'superhuman genius level intellect' chanter to begin with - why Int affects chanter range and not Resolve is beyond me anyway). 16 INT should be more than enough for a 'highly recommended stat' at character creation (since Con and Res are recommended as well).

You create one with 18-20 Int  like most everybody else and have no problems? That still leaves you plenty of points to play around with to buff resolve if you want those conversation options. For the love of God, even the default NPC Chanter KANA with his starting 17 Int and a +1 Int turban does the job of chanting to cover both front and rear well enough so long as you set up a custom formation with him in the middle so you don't have to fiddle too much with his position in combat.

 

And since you are not going to be using him as a front-liner, I don't see why you want to boost his Con in the first place unless for roleplaying reasons. You could dump it all the way to 3 and still be an excellent ranged Chanter-buffer/damagedealer.

 

The game's recommendations for stats are thematic and intended for people who don't have a clue, resulting in a Chanter that has an easy time staying alive in melee, but since YOU are designing your Chanter for a specific purpose, following the game's recommendations slavishly when you are building a character is silly.

 

 

For what it is worth, I use a custom formation of:

1. Tank - front and center

2. Two melee offtanks - offset to either side from the tank

3. Chanter - center

4. -- Empty ---

5.  2 casters -- offset from center

 

If you want to run 5 ranged instead, just run with 3 ranged including Chanter in the middle in row 3 instead.

Edited April 2, 2015 by pi2repsion

[ShadowTiger]

Um... my main is a chanter and I have no issue at all. I guess its party composition, I have 3 tanks in front and one barbarian with a spear right behind, and my wizard and cypher as slightly further back. I found that even in wide open spaces 3 tanks is enough to keep enemies from engaging guys in back especially with barbarian there to snag anyone who slips past.

Thus even if I had 10 INT I would always have everyone inside the radius.

I am not saying that OP argument isn't valid, it probably is. I think chanters are a bit underwhelming, all things considered. However, I am not convinced you need to have such a big gap between melee and ranged characters, especially since distance doesn't have a huge effect on agro anyways. My party is very close together in every single battle (in case it wasn't clear)

Edited April 2, 2015 by ShadowTiger

[endolex]

"You create one with 18-20 Int like most everybody else"

-- How am I supposed to know that, if game + documentation recommends something else entirely? Am I that silly in assuming that a chanters dev-designed purpose is to buff everyone / debuff all enemies, so stats are recommended for exactly that purpose?

 

"but since YOU are designing your Chanter for a specific purpose"

-- that a Chanter being able to buff the entire party / debuff all enemies should NOT be a "specific purpose" (as in: deviation from the intended functionality of a chanter) is exactly the point of my original post

[Emptiness]

So how do I create a chanter with 24 INT and without severely hobbling them in other areas than being able to perform their core functionality?

 

You don't need a 24 Int.  I happen to have the chanter companion at 24 Int because of a bug, but it doesn't really matter because the extra range is unnecessary.  As long as you position your Chanter in the right place, even a 10 Int will probably be enough.

 

 

The problem is if I don't pick a very short ranged weapon I will always have to micromanage the positioning of the chanter for them to have any desired effect, because otherwise they will stop moving once they are in minimum range for their weapon. And I'm not the kind of player who likes to tell party members where to go every single encounter.

 

I can understand not wanting to micromanage combat, but positioning a character is a two-click process.  If you don't manage your characters at all then you're not so much playing the game as watching it happen.  If that's what you want, then okay...for my part I prefer to be actively involved in my party's victory.

[endolex]

Emptiness. I said I don't feel like microing *every single encounter*. Microing special, more difficult fights is something I enjoy immensely. But movement and positioning *is* something I expect to sort itself out by formation and weapon ranges, so Melees will always melee and ranged will always stop moving at main range - leaving the chanter either to close at the front or the back, at least in my experience. Even in narrow dungeon corridors you have this problem of having to fiddle a lot to cover everyone with phrases, and I just don't believe this is the way it's supposed to be.

[pi2repsion]

"You create one with 18-20 Int like most everybody else"

-- How am I supposed to know that, if game + documentation recommends something else entirely? Am I that silly in assuming that a chanters dev-designed purpose is to buff everyone / debuff all enemies, so stats are recommended for exactly that purpose?

 

"but since YOU are designing your Chanter for a specific purpose"

-- that a Chanter being able to buff the entire party / debuff all enemies should NOT be a "specific purpose" (as in: deviation from the intended functionality of a chanter) is exactly the point of my original post

Your thinking that the Chanter's chants will be able to affect all enemies and friends while standing in the rear rank most certainly IS an idea that you came up with yourself and something which isn't supported by the class description or the class' starting stats.

 

Their descriptions are that that they chant magic continually with a variety of effects and have access to powerful spells called invocations. Nothing about being able to buff the entire party and debuff all enemies at the same time or that you should be able to do this regardless of how you build your Chanter.

 

Their stats are low endurance and high deflection - something suggesting that this is a class that can stand being exposed to attacks but isn't intended to tank.

 

That the Chanter is, in fact, able to use his chants to cover both front and rear ranks if you build him right is something that is great, but it is certainly not something that is suggested by his class description.

 

Furthermore, the Chants that are available while creating the character either harm enemies or buff the defenses of friends, the second being something of more importance to the front and middle rank.

 

FINALLY, the game puts a GOLD STAR for highly recommended for both intelligence and constitution and a silver star for resolve, so even if you DO follow the game's recommendations (which I personally find is a bad idea in general for anybody who has a specific role for his main character), you'd realize that the game's idea of a Chanter is somebody who is in a position where he'll be taking damage rather than in the rear and that high intelligence is a good idea.

 

So, YES. Creating your Chanter to be able to cover your entire group and all enemies with your chants at the same time, while certainly a worthwhile thing to do, is not in any way, shape, or form something that is suggested by the class' stats or its description, nor is the inability to do this without a high intelligence that surprising.

 

You wouldn't realize that the high constitution is a trap since the constitution stat is to a large degree a failure as a game mechanic, but if you DID follow the game's recommendations you'd end up with a Chanter who'd do decently in the front rank in melee while affecting enemies and your melee group with his chants AND do decently when standing in the middle of formation using ranged while affecting friends and some enemies with his chants.

 

I do wonder where you "read the original "LARGE, AoE low-level buffs and debuffs chanters' description", though. It isn't the description in either the manual, the game, or the update#78. I mean, it is true: true - Chanters have a huge AOE range when compared to other AOE buffing and debuffing spells - but I do wonder where you read it that would give you the idea that the chants would affect an even larger area and larger and would allow you to stand at the back and still affect everybody, be they friend or foe.

Edited April 2, 2015 by pi2repsion

[endolex]

pi2repsion:

"That the Chanter is, in fact, able to use his chants to cover both front and rear ranks if you build him right is something that is great, but it is certainly not something that is suggested by his class description." / "So, YES. Creating your Chanter to be able to cover your entire group and all enemies with your chants at the same time, while certainly a worthwhile thing to do, is not in any way, shape, or form something that is suggested by the class' stats or its description, nor is the inability to do this without a high intelligence that surprising."

 

Ok, I'll quote the official Pillars wiki at several points:

 

"chanters can grant their allies a sizable stack of minor bonus over large area"

"A chain of low power, long range area of effect passive buffs and debuffs..."

"Chants can include repeated phrases and affect a large area"

 

 

Well I don't know about you, but to me "large area" and "long range" certainly does NOT imply that I have to seriously think of which part of my party I want to buff, or if I want to even consider being in range to debuff enemies when picking phrases and editing chants. 

And apart from that, I get the idea of colossal, low-level buff AoE mainly from D&D bards, where else? In Baldur's Gate I+II, Neverwinter Nights I+II, Icewind Dale I+II etc. all bard songs (which were low-power buffs as well, counting that the bards could *not* do anything else while singing) had tremendous range. Since chanters are in many respects Pillar's take on bards (the name alone should be a clue), I fully expected it to be the case here.

 

Also: yes, 16 INT is recommended by the game but even with that, chant circles are ridiculously small, to the mentioned effect that when I play a ranged weapon chanter, their chants will never reach any melee party members or enemies for that matter, essentially rendering any melee-focused buffs and enemy debuffs useless - buffs that are very minor to begin with. This leaves the chanter with Invocations only for any serious magic to speak of - and they can cast those only every three turns at most. So right now, Chanters appear to be severely underpowered to me. Any other class in their spot can do more damage, more healing, more enemy control han they can hope to.

[pi2repsion]

1) The "official pillars of eternity wiki" is a place where players write information about the game, not a source of information from Obsidian, and not something you should take as gospel or expect to be up to date, and most certainly not something that you should trust over what you read in the manual or in the game. Much of the wiki was last updated more than half a year ago when the game was nowhere near finished; Many people are helping out bringing it up to date based on the release version rather than what used to be the case months ago, and at some time in the future it might be an accurate reference, but it most assuredly isn't now.

 

2) That said, in this case it is right. The chanter DOES have a long-range large radius AOE. That this is a large radius for buffs and debuffs is readily realized once you use AOE buffs and debuffs in the game and find that those from other classes are mostly puny by comparison. That you expected an even larger radius based on the radius of other abilities in other games that use different combat engines does not make the radius the chanter gets in PoE small.

 

3) The chanter CAN affect the entire party and enemies - so long as you build for it and position him appropriately.

 

So again, you were let down by your assumptions and not by the game. These things happen.

 

Deal with it now that you know that what you wish most of all (affecting everybody) is possible even if it isn't possible the way you wanted it to be and place the Chanter in the position where he logically belongs for that role when his AOE is centered on himself:  in the middle of your formation. He'll still be in a perfect position to use his ranged weapon, so I really, really, really don't understand where your reluctance to play him like a PoE Chanter rather than your idea of what Chanters ought to be comes from.

 

 

 

The Chanters are fine as they are; Their main problem is really that most fights in PoE are so short that they don't get to use their invocations before the battles are over.

 

Unfortunately one of the extremely powerful thing about Chanters currently, their permanent endurance regeneration for all allies in chanting range, is getting reduced in accordance with the 1.03 patch notes. But then, it is currently very, very, good, and it is something you get passively so long as you are chanting anything. I guess they wised up to the fact that a Chanter with the Ancient Memories upgrade passively giving all party members in range something approaching the Fighters' endurance recovery passive was perhaps being a bit too generous.

Edited April 2, 2015 by pi2repsion

[endolex]

1) All of the information in the wiki is taken straight from Obsidian themselves while they were developing the game, so I do consider it source information from Obsidian (mostly dev forum posts by Josh Sawyer). So yes, apparently Obsidian changed their view on this at some point, to my great dismay.

 

2) Yes, compared to other AoE buffs and debuffs (apart from Interdiction btw, which affects a HUGE area), the range of chants is 'big'.  But those other buffs and attacks you are comparing them to are that much stronger as well. They are simply a completely different thing than what Chants do. It makes sense to limit the range and area (especially in the case of AoE attacks, to avoid players stop using them because of friendly fire concerns).

But for chants, none of this applies. These 'buffs' are weak enough as it is (much due to their very specific effects, e.g. you don't decrease all damage from enemies, just slashing and piercing, etc.), there is simply no need to constrict their range in the same way as 'real' buffs, and further diminish their already minor impact. All overlapping phrases of a chant combined make roughly two thirds of a buff. At limited range, it's even less noticeable, and that's what I think is just too underpowered at this point.

Yes, other games use different combat engines, but this whole thing is supposed to be a throwback to good ol' Infinity Days, is it not? And in those days, bard and jester songs affected practically everything in sight. So yes, I assumed this being case here as well.

 

3) As I already pointed out, this 'perfect position' is not possible to maintain without microing Chanter positioning for every single encounter, because if the chanter uses a ranged weapon, they will stop moving once they have reached minimum range for their weapon. To check if the Chant reaches everyone, I need to mouseover over the chant icon everytime, and again at this point I would wonder if this is the way this class is supposed to be played for optimal performance, while other classes easily slip into their logical position based on their weapon, can fire away their targeted or AoE abilities and spells and don't give any cause for concern whether they're carrying their weight.

 

4) "Their main problem is really that most fights in PoE are so short that they don't get to use their invocations before the battles are over." <-- Finally something we can agree on, because without Invocations, little remains that make a Chanter useful in any way. I wonder though how this could possibly mean that to you, Chanters are 'fine as they are'? To me this sounds like a severe class and combat design mismatch.

 

5) Too much heal - another thing I agree with. The regeneration effect of Ancient Memory is supposed to be a small boost, like everything Chants do is supposed to be (except Invocations).

 

 

Also, it may sound this way, but I'm really not complaining - I'm still just wondering if all of this intended. Because if so, I'll just give up on playing a chanter or even having one in the party, because I just don't see the point when every other class clearly bring more to the table (which is a pity since I do happen to like Kana as a character... )