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...those that are blaming Obsidian for being transphobic. Not everyone have been polite about their critiscm...

 

 

...And I suppose you expect me to take your word on this over my personal experience with the critics' group because you have been such a paragon of rational thinking, right?

 

 

Do not even try to make one "side" of this innocent. Do not even try making this into something akin to the gamergate "war" where both sides profess innocence. 

 

...Well this part was... something. About something, I'm sure. There were words. On my screen. That's pretty much all I can tell.

 

Mind injecting a bit of coherence here?

 

 

No. So here are some examples of people not behaving very politely, irregardless of where they stand: (Not to mention those that actually want Mr. Bain dead because of his views on this matter)

https://twitter.com/Spacekatgal/status/582341164507918336

https://twitter.com/jesawyer/status/582200461127634945

https://twitter.com/stillgray/status/582184209013284864

 

Are you done? If you don't like the comparison then stop trying to bring emotional arguments into the discussion. I do believe that we can do without that when it comes to discussing the merits of removing backer memorials, for various reasons. 

 

Oh and there are actually transgender people that don't want Obsidian to change anything. As a counter weight to that premise.

Edited by ChipMHazard

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It's a very specific gendered sort of harrassment that kind of proves her point (ie. transphobia generally being a thing), which is where the difference from, say, Jack Thompson lies.

 

 

Okay so how about this.

 

I'm Jewish, the stereotypes that modern Jewish jokes are based on essentially formed arguments that led to the murder of 6 million Jews.  IE Jews are greedy, Jews have lots of money, Jews are deceptive etc. etc.

 

Yet I would not want them to be censored because I know that a joke is not the same as actual hate speech.

 

 

If actual hate speech against jews was common and encouraged by society (ie. if you actually lived in Nazi Germany), how would you feel about people making jokes about the jews?

 

 

I think that's an extreme example because it's hard to imagine a Jewish joke in Nazi Germany NOT being hate speech.  But let's be honest, modern day America is nowhere close to Nazi Germany when it comes to Trans people.  Yes, there are still hateful bigots out there, but there aren't exactly death camps. 

 

 

Is discrimination only bad when it gets to the point of people getting put in death camps?

 

Because let me tell you, trans people have it really, really bad even though they're not being gassed to death.

 

I must admit that you are a very good demagogue. You manipulated him very skillfully.

 

There is nothing!! special about gays or transsexuals that makes mentioning discrimination against them a taboo. South Parks' creators for example are spoofing almost everything that exists and yet they are doing it because that way they can criticize the western society and they have the freedom of speech on their side...

 

There is also a huge difference between games that mention racism and the propaganda that Hitler used to brainwash his population to create a genocide. For example this game is not intended for children ,the Nazis had kindergarten books that showed that Jews had tails and that Africans are slaves and every young German had tests in which he had to identify a persons' origin by his look and character (smart blond individuals with blue hair are Nazis ,black and stupid are Africans and so on)...

 

In this game there is only a mentioning  of someone who is an idiot ,the game doesn't try to convince you that Transsexuals are a blight that should be condemned.

 

This is the difference between art and racist propaganda. The first is meant for adult individuals who can think for themselves and doesn't try to convince them to think in a certain way (but sometimes tries to shock them enough to make them think or discuss about the subject)

 

The second will try to convince anyone to act in a certain way and to believe in certain things and discourage free thinking or open discussion about the subject.

Edited by barakav

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An ex-biophysicist but currently Studying Schwarzschild singularities' black holes' Hawking radiation using LAZORS and hypersonic sound wave models.

 

My main objective is to use my results to take over the world!

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Mind injecting a bit of coherence here?

 

 

No.

 

 

Such a paragon of rationality indeed!

 

so here are some examples of people not behaving very politely, irregardless of where they stand: (Not to mention those that actually want Mr. Bain dead because of his views on this matter)

https://twitter.com/Spacekatgal/status/582341164507918336

https://twitter.com/jesawyer/status/582200461127634945

https://twitter.com/stillgray/status/582184209013284864

 

 

Oh, you mean "@Obsidian No spine whatsoever - only a loud, fringe minority of thin-skinned crybabies were offended"? Because that's about the only not-very-polite quote aimed at Obsidian I found at your links. Okay, some people were also saying mean things about TotalBiscuit, but knowing the propensity of the man to weigh in discussions he knows nothing about with all the tact of an elephant in a china shop, that's hardly surprising (and also not very relevant to the issue of people reacting to Obsidian's handling of the matter).


"Lulz is not the highest aspiration of art and mankind, no matter what the Encyclopedia Dramatica says."

 

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Mind injecting a bit of coherence here?

 

 

No.

 

 

Such a paragon of rationality indeed!

 

so here are some examples of people not behaving very politely, irregardless of where they stand: (Not to mention those that actually want Mr. Bain dead because of his views on this matter)

https://twitter.com/Spacekatgal/status/582341164507918336

https://twitter.com/jesawyer/status/582200461127634945

https://twitter.com/stillgray/status/582184209013284864

 

 

Oh, you mean "@Obsidian No spine whatsoever - only a loud, fringe minority of thin-skinned crybabies were offended"? Because that's about the only not-very-polite quote aimed at Obsidian I found at your links. Okay, some people were also saying mean things about TotalBiscuit, but knowing the propensity of the man to weigh in discussions he knows nothing about with all the tact of an elephant in a china shop, that's hardly surprising (and also not very relevant to the issue of people reacting to Obsidian's handling of the matter).

 

 

Did you just misquote me on purpose? That is just low. That "no" was clearly part of what followed. If you're going to act this way then I see absolutely no point in trying to discuss anything with you. 

 

Stop trying to deny that people on both sides are behaving in a childish manner. It's quite clear that not everyone is being polite about their critiscm. 

Edited by ChipMHazard

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I'd pull up some quotes, but apparently her tweets are protected now and not open for public view. Which, if she was getting harrassed on facebook and stuff, doesn't surprise me. I'll be honest though, some of the things I've read (on both sides, although the hate for trans is especially cruel and surprising) have been terrible. For the most part, I think the mods have done a good job of keeping that out of these discussions, but I think in another thread someone mentioned some rather hateful messages on steam or something. I can't support that by any means - so good job mod for keeping that stuff out (as far as I can tell).

 

 

To be honest, many of the people who get all uppity to complain something and love to spout the genocide line start claiming harassment the second that a spotlight is actually shown on their ideology and agenda.  They'll also run screaming around flapping their arms claiming that a public forum is private, and whining about how people are invading their 'safe space' and all that.  The reality is, they want people to do what they tell them to do.  But if you dare question how much of a racist, bigot, sexist that they actually are for their own statements they get all upset.

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It's a very specific gendered sort of harrassment that kind of proves her point (ie. transphobia generally being a thing), which is where the difference from, say, Jack Thompson lies.

 

 

Okay so how about this.

 

I'm Jewish, the stereotypes that modern Jewish jokes are based on essentially formed arguments that led to the murder of 6 million Jews.  IE Jews are greedy, Jews have lots of money, Jews are deceptive etc. etc.

 

Yet I would not want them to be censored because I know that a joke is not the same as actual hate speech.

 

 

If actual hate speech against jews was common and encouraged by society (ie. if you actually lived in Nazi Germany), how would you feel about people making jokes about the jews?

 

 

I think that's an extreme example because it's hard to imagine a Jewish joke in Nazi Germany NOT being hate speech.  But let's be honest, modern day America is nowhere close to Nazi Germany when it comes to Trans people.  Yes, there are still hateful bigots out there, but there aren't exactly death camps. 

 

 

Is discrimination only bad when it gets to the point of people getting put in death camps?

 

Because let me tell you, trans people have it really, really bad even though they're not being gassed to death.

 

I must admit that you are a very good demagogue. You manipulated him very skillfully.

 

[snip]

 

Erm... thank you, I guess? 

 

I'm not sure why it's manipulation to point out that people can face serious discrimination without being sent to death camps, and jokes in certain contexts - such as against groups of people who face aforementioned discrimination - can be seen as punching down, regardless of authorial intent. But okay, I'm now officially a Skillful Manipulator, which I shall wear as a badge of honor.

 

As for the rest of your post, the nazi comparison wasn't really brought up by me, so I'm not really sure what you wanted to achieve by that.


"Lulz is not the highest aspiration of art and mankind, no matter what the Encyclopedia Dramatica says."

 

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Mind injecting a bit of coherence here?

 

 

No.

 

 

Such a paragon of rationality indeed!

 

so here are some examples of people not behaving very politely, irregardless of where they stand: (Not to mention those that actually want Mr. Bain dead because of his views on this matter)

https://twitter.com/Spacekatgal/status/582341164507918336

https://twitter.com/jesawyer/status/582200461127634945

https://twitter.com/stillgray/status/582184209013284864

 

 

Oh, you mean "@Obsidian No spine whatsoever - only a loud, fringe minority of thin-skinned crybabies were offended"? Because that's about the only not-very-polite quote aimed at Obsidian I found at your links. Okay, some people were also saying mean things about TotalBiscuit, but knowing the propensity of the man to weigh in discussions he knows nothing about with all the tact of an elephant in a china shop, that's hardly surprising (and also not very relevant to the issue of people reacting to Obsidian's handling of the matter).

 

 

Did you just misquote me on purpose? That is just low. That "no" was clearly part of what followed. If you're going to act this way then I see absolutely no point in trying to discuss anything with you. 

 

 

 

...Oh my, how serious. Positively grave. There was something about thicker skin? Something a certain crowd is very fond of espousing? If only I could remember what it was...

 
Mockery aside, you failed to engage with my - admittedly flippant - attempt at understanding what you were talking about with "sides" and "gamergate". Which I found frustrating. Hence the reaction.
 
 

 

Stop trying to deny that people on both sides are behaving in a childish manner. It's quite clear that not everyone is being polite about their critiscm. 

 

 

But... I read through the quotes you linked. I think. I scrolled to the end, at least. At no point did I find any voice criticizing Obsidian hit a tone other than "this is a misstep I hope will be rectified, thanks in advance". Well okay, there were "this is very bad" and "I'm not going to buy the game" statements, too, but nobody was calling the devs spineless, which the other side did.

 

Are you sure you copied the correct links?

Edited by aluminiumtrioxid

"Lulz is not the highest aspiration of art and mankind, no matter what the Encyclopedia Dramatica says."

 

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Pillars of Eternity is a really, really fantastic game, you know? But part of it kind of sucks: the backer NPCs. You know the ones: all of the yellow-bar NPCs whose souls you can peer into, and read a short story about.

 

They are almost uniformly terrible.

 

The writing is usually pretty poor, the characters frequently being cast in the mold of Mary Sue, with names that fail to fit into the setting (and frequently don't even try to fit in). The stories themselves, though once in a while decently written and interesting, never contribute anything to the setting or world of the game.

 

Oh: and most of them are the super-rare Godlikes.

 

I swear: there are more Godlikes in the Dyrwood than humans, elves, dwarves, aumaua and sentient kittens combined.

 

So there really, really needs to be an option to remove/hide these NPCs, or a mod to excise them entirely. I feel that their presence serves as an active detriment to the overall experience of the game--not cool.

The issue I have with the backer NPCs is that they don't act like... people. You can't talk to them. They make no comments. They just stand their like animated sculptures waiting for their souls to be read by passers by. It feels very unnatural and clunky. I wonder if Obsidian actually had grander plans for these NPCs and had to cut back due to time/budget constraints. Or was this truly their master vision?

 

Am I off topic now? Believe it or not, I'm responding to the original post. ;)

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You guys do realize you're debating which side has been more polite or which side has received more discrimination, right?

 

All of this is irrelevant and a result of yourselves pouring your own agendas into an otherwise simple issue.

 

A joke was made, some people got offended, some did not. You can either support the joke's right to exist or believe it couldn't hurt to remove it so long as the author okays it and Obsidian shows a desire to recall it. It's that simple. There is no "trans vs. non-trans thought" here, there is no "my side has been more polite, therefore we should get our way," there is no "my side is subject to more discrimination and therefore we should get our way." That's not how it works.

 

 

 

A joke was made, some people got offended, Obsidian is fully in their right to leave it in or get it removed. If people choose to get offended and mad at Obsidian for having it or keeping it, that's their problem and only gets the attention it does because Obsidian is a business and must of course evaluate if they care that much about catering to this group. If Obsidian were to remove it and people conclude Obsidian is spineless and demand their money back, again that's their problem, and again the only reason this would give Obsidian thought is in the interest of appealing to their customers.

 

  The end result is that all you guys are doing is applying an unusually disproportionate level of stress for them that, in my humble opinion, doesn't seem warranted at all. There's absolutely zero reason to invest this much time and effort into this, and again in my humble opinion, if you invest THIS much effort into a joke and the alleged implications it has, then uhhh...well maybe you could find a better use of your time? Don't mean that disrespectfully, but yeah, if your goal is trans rights for example then surely there's better ways to use your time in favor of the trans community rather than arguing about a joke in a random RPG on the internet. If your interest is comedy and free speech....well personally I'm in this camp cause I love comedy, and this stuff happens CONSTANTLY. This is status quo for comedy, so I see no reason to sweat it more than any other; just laugh it off and keep telling jokes that may or may not offend people. I can only hope Obsidian actually doesn't give a **** and is only entertaining such threads like this one in the interest of showing that everyone's right to an opinion and discussion is respected, and that they otherwise aren't sweating it.

Edited by Longknife
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"The Courier was the worst of all of them. The worst by far. When he died the first time, he must have met the devil, and then killed him."

 

 

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Erm... thank you, I guess? 

 

I'm not sure why it's manipulation to point out that people can face serious discrimination without being sent to death camps, and jokes in certain contexts - such as against groups of people who face aforementioned discrimination - can be seen as punching down, regardless of authorial intent. But okay, I'm now officially a Skillful Manipulator, which I shall wear as a badge of honor.

 

As for the rest of your post, the nazi comparison wasn't really brought up by me, so I'm not really sure what you wanted to achieve by that.

Because you manipulated him by asking:

 

If actual hate speech against jews was common and encouraged by society (ie. if you actually lived in Nazi Germany), how would you feel about people making jokes about the jews?

This was more than just encouraged ,it was a propaganda tool that was used  by the regime and people were brainwashed from young age. You can't compare that situation to the lives Transsexuals are having  in the USA today.

 

No one in the west is teaching individuals from young age that Trans' are not human. And adults that aren't racist(or whatever it is called) will not turn into ones by playing this game so what is the point in changing it? It will just hurt the freedom of speech and will start a dangerous path in which anyone  that is insulted from something in a game will try to change it.

Edited by barakav

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An ex-biophysicist but currently Studying Schwarzschild singularities' black holes' Hawking radiation using LAZORS and hypersonic sound wave models.

 

My main objective is to use my results to take over the world!

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Are there any penalties to axing their faces?

 

Does any of them carry items/monies to loot?

 

Agree that they add absolutely nothing to the game mostly due to their badly written stories. 

 

Also it would have been nice if their was a portrait to all of the named characters in the game - I think a mod for BG2 did this and it added a lot to the game play. 

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I haven't minded the backer NPCs.  They're not terribly interactive, but neither are the people who speak in only floating text. Generally, if the first lines grab me I've enjoyed reading the rest.  If the first lines didn't grab me I'll just not read it.  I've read a few memorials now and I don't really have a problem with them.  The ones that don't make any in game sense I'm pretending are in-game memorial vandalism that has led to obscure in-jokes and commentaries I don't get. Killroy was here. ;)

 

In respect to the limerick memorial, I (like many) don't get why the limerick which doesn't refer to trans anything is considered anti-trans.  I've tried to see the argument, but there's so little there I just can't make that connection.  That said I've actually experienced situations where something that was done with no malice took on a different context for others.  In the end I actually think, upon reflection, that ultimately if the backer and Obsidian agree for alternative text I have no personal issue with it being replaced by alternate content from the backer.

 

You can claim censorship all you like - and it'd be true, of course - but in the end it'd be self-censorship by the author making the change.  There are sometimes you create something and your personal context misses the context that someone else might bring to it, and I've experienced - in essence - that very thing in real life.  Its rather embarrassing and in the end, in my experience, I lost my own ability to enjoy what had been done previously (and with no malice intended) without changing it. And so I changed it.

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I think they shoould explain the situation to the author and give him/her the option to replace what he/she paid money to have written in game...if he/she wants to that is. On the other hand, I have zero sympathy for anybody showing the level of hatred the offended parts show towards a group of people. Nobody is committing genocide against trans people, so if you can joke about "hating all men"  like she did here ( http://ask.fm/icequeenerika ) you don't have any right to feel offended for anything like this.

 

After all for what I understood the guy committing suicide here is the deceived one, not the one dressed as a woman...

Edited by Bayzent

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After all for what I understood the guy committing suicide here is the deceived one, not the one dressed as a woman...

 

The fundamental reason some transpeople, and those who are offended on their behalf, are offended is that the limmerick reinforces a stereotype of transpeople as being involved in tricking other people into sleeping with them.  They are annoyed at seeing transexuals represented this way in various forms of media as it is probably the most common joke involving transexuals that is seen.

 

Individual offendees also have some variation in the exact reason for their offense.  For example, some of the more radical offendees are taking offense at the implication that the transexual involved in the limmerick (the limmerick need not necessarily be interpreted to mean that the guy slept with a transexual but that is IMO the most obvious interpretation) is not a woman but is actually still a man.  Some people consider that a MtF transexual is fully female and should be treated as female in all ways by everyone else.  They consider someone who does not act and treat a transexual as fully female, including willingness to have a romantic relationship with them, as a bigoted hateful person.  So from their point of view this limmerick reinforces a view that transexuals are not fully the gender the would like the world to identify them as and as a result it is transphobic.

 

Some even go so far as to state their belief this limmerick encourages the harrasment and even physical abuse targeted at transexuals by reinforcing the view that it is ok to be hateful or discriminate against transexuals and believe that they are due some kind of special considerations and protections due to being a marginalized group in society that have it "really, really bad" and should be totally off limits for any kind of jokes.

 

For the most part I don't support these views but these are what I understand the complaints to be. For me personally, I can see how a transperson could be tired of seeing this joke be one of the most common representations of transpeople in media.  While I don't begrudge them being annoyed or slightly offended at it I also I don't think their getting offended or annoyed by it is a good enough reason to exclude this extremely minor out of the way joke.  Many jokes are annoying or offensive to someone.  I don't agree at all with the more radical reasons some people have given for being offended by the limmerick.

Edited by darkpatriot

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How about, since it is such a minor part of the game and has nothing at all to do with Obsidian's vision or artistic integrity (as it is backer written) you just let it go?  The game is better without it, and its inclusion adds nothing.  

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How about, since it is such a minor part of the game and has nothing at all to do with Obsidian's vision or artistic integrity (as it is backer written) you just let it go?  The game is better without it, and its inclusion adds nothing.  

 

Why not just led it slide because inclusion doesn't remove anything for the game and it's optional content that no one is forced to read?

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From the profile settings on this very board:

 

34huy3o.jpg

 

So if a person is not cisgendered, they have to hide it, is that it Obsidian? You think people should be ashamed of who they are? Is this some kind of transphobic message board? I request, nay, I demand that you add at least one more option such as "Other". Not that clumping everybody together under it is any less oppressing, but it's the least you could do.

 

*the above was a poor attempt at sarcasm, but I just couldn't resist when I saw the options in the settings. Whatevs.

**on an unrelated note, just noticed this smiley ->  :skeptical:  awesome


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How about, since it is such a minor part of the game and has nothing at all to do with Obsidian's vision or artistic integrity (as it is backer written) you just let it go?  The game is better without it, and its inclusion adds nothing.  

 

Why not just led it slide because inclusion doesn't remove anything for the game and it's optional content that no one is forced to read?

 

Here's the thing - Its inclusion hurts and angers a number of people.  Some people don't mind it, but its inclusion still adds nothing.  And again, isn't part of Obsidian's vision.  So why not just do right by other people are remove it from the game?

Edited by TheHarpoMarxist

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From the profile settings on this very board:

 

34huy3o.jpg

 

So if a person is not cisgendered, they have to hide it, is that it Obsidian? You think people should be ashamed of who they are? Is this some kind of transphobic message board? I request, nay, I demand that you add at least one more option such as "Other". Not that clumping everybody together under it is any less oppressing, but it's the least you could do.

 

*the above was a poor attempt at sarcasm, but I just couldn't resist when I saw the options in the settings. Whatevs.

**on an unrelated note, just noticed this smiley ->  :skeptical:  awesome

Actually, an "other" option would be lovely and appropriate.  It is 2015, and we should be better by now.

 

I'm really disappointed that so many people in this community are so gung-ho to mock people who aren't cis-gendered.  If you want another compelling reason to remove the "joke" epitaph, its **** like this.

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How about, since it is such a minor part of the game and has nothing at all to do with Obsidian's vision or artistic integrity (as it is backer written) you just let it go?  The game is better without it, and its inclusion adds nothing.  

 

Why not just led it slide because inclusion doesn't remove anything for the game and it's optional content that no one is forced to read?

 

Here's the thing - Its inclusion hurts and angers a number of people.  Some people don't mind it, but its inclusion still adds nothing.  And again, isn't part of Obsidian's vision.  So why not just do right by other people are remove it from the game?

 

 

I personally like it and as such it's removal hurts me... And it hurts the industry moving forward...

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Actually, an "other" option would be lovely and appropriate.  It is 2015, and we should be better by now.

 

 

I'm really disappointed that so many people in this community are so gung-ho to mock people who aren't cis-gendered.  If you want another compelling reason to remove the "joke" epitaph, its **** like this.

 

Do we REALLY think that transgender people are so emotional and irrational that one simple thing such as this is going to single-handedly set them off and ruin their day? Tell me, have you ever spoken to a transgender person before?

 

Are we also denying that biologically, yes there are two genders and will always BE two genders, and regardless of any form on random crap like this, you will still be expected to list one of two genders on medical forms? (and to my knowledge, the gender-at-birth is always relevant and always asked)

 

 

Let us not be so open-minded that we deny reality.

 

 

 

And again, much of this discussion is people inserting their agendas into the subject matter. Not the issue itself (the limerick) actually carrying ANY of the weight they think it does.

Edited by Longknife

"The Courier was the worst of all of them. The worst by far. When he died the first time, he must have met the devil, and then killed him."

 

 

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How about, since it is such a minor part of the game and has nothing at all to do with Obsidian's vision or artistic integrity (as it is backer written) you just let it go?  The game is better without it, and its inclusion adds nothing.  

Because the words "I'm offended" have already gained far too much power.  If every time someone is offended that topic or approach is off limits then we are going to find ourselves severely restricted.  If something is going to be censored, I would like to see a more solid reason than hurt feelings.

 

A society that maintains a healthy respect for satire, mockery, and humor in general is much better equipped to recognize its own flaws.  These are often the tools that are used to point out and explore these flaws.  The harm in limiting humor by constantly expanding the list of the topics that are not acceptable to be made fun of is tremendous.

Edited by darkpatriot

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Oh?  This joke written by a backer is integral to your experience of the game?  I'm sorry but I don't buy that for a second.  And even if it is true, then you're pretty much saying that you getting a slight chuckle is more important than the actual lives of other people.

 

And its removal doesn't at all hurt the industry in any way, shape, or form.

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How about, since it is such a minor part of the game and has nothing at all to do with Obsidian's vision or artistic integrity (as it is backer written) you just let it go?  The game is better without it, and its inclusion adds nothing.  

 

Why not just led it slide because inclusion doesn't remove anything for the game and it's optional content that no one is forced to read?

 

Here's the thing - Its inclusion hurts and angers a number of people.  Some people don't mind it, but its inclusion adds nothing for them.  And again, isn't part of Obsidian's vision.  So why not just do right by other people are remove it from the game?

 

Why should they "do right" by anybody? Seriously though? Yes, I understand that people are upset and I'm probably coming on as a real **** right now, however, I can't seem to understand what is this constant strive to please everybody. The thing is that, there are people that will always be offended by minor things. You can't, and more importantly shouldn't, mollycoddle them. If you like that but find the game offensive - mod it out. Not to mention the fact, that the limerick in questions doesn't even have anything to do with transgender people.

 

 

And even if it is true, then you're pretty much saying that you getting a slight chuckle is more important than the actual lives of other people.

 

Oh, the humanity! I can see the PTSD already! Suffice it to say, that if a single out-of-the-way line in a video-game is enough to push you over the proverbial edge, then maybe the problem is with you and not the game.

 

And its removal doesn't at all hurt the industry in any way, shape, or form.

 

It does. Meaningless censorship in order to please a vocal minority that's over abused the word "offended" is stupid in and of itself.

Edited by RottenBrain

Waiter! Fresh underwear, seven blankets and a bucket of moist towelettes!

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