Are guns the ultimate weapons for each class?

[Kingsy]

Doesn't switching weapons also have a recovery time? 

 

In terms of using them as main weapons, bows are a good choice because when you miss with an arquebus, that's like 25 seconds where you aren't doing any damage. 

 

 

My main fires every 3 seconds, the rest of my party except my tank also use arquebus and they fire almost as fast. Guns are indeed the ultimate weapons. xD

 

But it's for the best that they're overlooked, too much attention and it'll probably warrant a nerf bat. So pretend that I said nothing. 8D

Edited March 30, 2015 by Kingsy

[Smooth Mouse]

I love guns because... well... its an RPG with guns! Any chance I get to use a pistol or rifle, I'm there. I think my party is addicted to gunpowder...

[Viperswhip]

I refuse to use guns in a fantasy setting, I almost didn't play this game for that reason.

[Tomice]

I refuse to use guns in a fantasy setting, I almost didn't play this game for that reason.

Well, I'm no huge fan either, but they are well-integrated lore-wise, so I don't mind. But I'd really like bows to be a bit more viable.

[vcntmnd]

Currently combat seems heavily geared toward high damage per hit weapons, its not guns specifically, just slow 2 handers that feel OP. And fast 1 handers do very little.

[sean10mm]

Guns are nerfed pretty hard from the beta versions from what I understand.  They're great for a rogue sneak attack "first strike" to open combat but are slow.

[Creslin321]

I think that, because of the heavy use of DR in PoE, there is a strong bias towards big, heavy hitting weapons.

 

Smaller weapons seem to underperform in a lot of encounters because, even though they hit very fast, the majority of their damage is absorbed by DR.  Big weapons on the other hand are much slower, but most of their damage will punch through DR, meaning higher DPS overall.

 

I started out with my rogue using a rapier and dagger, and he wasn't doing that well.  He now uses a huge greatsword and cuts through everything.

[Xavori]

What's the problem exactly, firearms are the most advanced ranged weapons in the world, of course they should deal more damage.

 

I also love the thematic contrast they bring.

 

Because we're getting into a realism vs fun thing, and in a game, fun should always win.

 

If you really want to get nitpicky tho, guns didn't replace bows because guns are more damaging.  Crossbows replaced bows because a good bowman needed a virtual lifetime of training.  A crossbow could be handed to any yokel who simply pointed it at what he wanted to kill and squeezed the lever (or eventually pulled trigger).  The gun replaced the crossbow because it's even easier.  Reloading a crossbow takes a bit of strength or an excessive amount of time winding.  A gun takes less time than winding and pretty much no strength at all.

 

Back to the game...

 

What the OP said is massive alpha strike then go to something more sustainable.  If you want real cheese, build a stealth party with a mage who can open up with fan of flames and then the 21 gun salute followed by everyone switch to faster weapons.  And if you want ultimate cheese, have your party be mostly moon godlike chanters who will all be healing each other non-stop.  Maybe throw a rogue in for actual DPS, and a priest for those really rare occasions when the enemy all end up piling on to one character.

[Matt516]

I like that the game includes guns, and I don't think its unreasonable to have them be extremely strong openers, with the party then switching to more traditional weapons for the rest of the fight. This is exactly how early guns were used, after all - we're just not used to playing games set in the early gunpowder era so the tactic "feels" strange to us.

 

That said, I wouldn't be opposed to a bit more of an accuracy penalty on guns to make the "alpha strike" strategy a bit more risky. Fairly easy way to tone them down in power a bit without taking away from the "YEAH!" feeling you get with a successful alpha strike. Heck, even something like "50% of grazes are converted to misses" would be a reasonable way of doing it. This problem is completely solvable without doing something silly like nerfing gun damage into oblivion.

[Matt516]

I think that, because of the heavy use of DR in PoE, there is a strong bias towards big, heavy hitting weapons.

 

Smaller weapons seem to underperform in a lot of encounters because, even though they hit very fast, the majority of their damage is absorbed by DR.  Big weapons on the other hand are much slower, but most of their damage will punch through DR, meaning higher DPS overall.

 

I started out with my rogue using a rapier and dagger, and he wasn't doing that well.  He now uses a huge greatsword and cuts through everything.

 

Yup. The usage of flat integer DR (as opposed to % reduction) lends itself very naturally to this kind of imbalance, and it's not at ALL easy to fix.

[dirigible]

Yup. The usage of flat integer DR (as opposed to % reduction) lends itself very naturally to this kind of imbalance, and it's not at ALL easy to fix.

 

Despite this, I love Obsidian for using flat (subtractive) DR. Adds a lot of depth without adding a lot of complexity.

[Bhazor]

Guns are high risk high reward. You generally will only get one shot, do not miss your chance to blow, before the mob is on you. But if you hit that's all you need.

 

According to the admittedly rough numbers the Arbalest (heavy crossbow) is actually the best ranged weapon.

 

http://www.reddit.com/r/projecteternity/comments/30rso5/ranged_weapon_dps_some_rough_numbers/

Edited March 30, 2015 by Bhazor

[dirigible]

You generally will only get one shot, do not miss your chance to blow

This opportunity comes once in a lifetime, you better lose yourself in the combat, the moment, you own it, you better never let it go.

[vcntmnd]

 

I think that, because of the heavy use of DR in PoE, there is a strong bias towards big, heavy hitting weapons.

 

Smaller weapons seem to underperform in a lot of encounters because, even though they hit very fast, the majority of their damage is absorbed by DR.  Big weapons on the other hand are much slower, but most of their damage will punch through DR, meaning higher DPS overall.

 

I started out with my rogue using a rapier and dagger, and he wasn't doing that well.  He now uses a huge greatsword and cuts through everything.

 

Yup. The usage of flat integer DR (as opposed to % reduction) lends itself very naturally to this kind of imbalance, and it's not at ALL easy to fix.

 

Should be relatively easy to fix, find your mid range moderately armored base DR, balance fast single handed weapons to outperform slow two handers in this range, then make might damage % apply after DR reduction. 2 handers gain versatilty (never ineffective, high alpha) and 1 handers become usable. Fast weapons do more DPS and are rewarded for choosing the right tool for the job, but suffer vs armor strengths or tough enemies.

 

Also making might apply after DR reduction curtails the massive DPS difference between a high might and a low might character.

Edited March 30, 2015 by vcntmnd

[vcntmnd]

Side note when I say balance fast single handed weapons against two handers of course I mean dual wielded. they will likely need to up the accuracy bonus quite a bit to make single weapon a viable style, but it can be done.

They could go even further and give weapon and shield an accuracy bonus to bring it closer in line DPS wise, allowing sword and boards to do consistent, albeit lower, DPS, then give dual wielders a small accuracy penalty.

Vs shielded armour you would prefer a 2 hander, unless you had sufficient weapon bonuses (rogue, barbarian) to warrant dual wielding.

Untalented lower accuracy also fragile classes (priest, druid) would prefer sword and board due to the accuracy bonus.


The system could line up rather neatly, it just requires some balancing.

Edited March 30, 2015 by vcntmnd

[Gwydeon79]

Bow's being so lack luster make's this Cipher sad.... I really didn't want to use guns

[Viperswhip]

Bow's being so lack luster make's this Cipher sad.... I really didn't want to use guns

There is a warbow that stuns on crit, Ciphers can't crit very often, well, not as often as Rogues or Rangers.

[Nerdwing]

Arbalests trump guns in my experience.  The 25% damage buff from Elemental bonuses on top of an Arbalests already higher base damage often offsets that DR reduction.  That and a faster reload.

 

Honestly, I found most guns pretty bad.  Blunderbuss especially was more or less useless.

[Emerwyn]

The advantages from having a full gun-ready party to welcome the first enemy from a pull is almost negligible in higher difficulty settings. At least in Path of the Damned a regular pull usually includes 8-15 creatures, and killing one off the bat (even if you were lucky enough to do that) doesn't change the encounter and the drawbacks from not having a second weapon set ready for action are tangible.

 

Besides, let's do some practical thinking here. Let's say your average party has: 1 Fighter tank, 1 melee damage dealer, 1 Priest, 1 Wizard, 1 Druid, 1 Ranger.

 

- Your Ranger is utilised to do the sneaking and pulling the enemy group.

- Your Priest will be casting Interdiction ASAP.

- Your Wizard will be pre-casting an AoE disabling/damaging spell

- Your Druid will be pre-casting an AoE disabling/damaging spell

 

That leaves your melee DPS and your tank to get a shot off before the enemy gets to melee, and I don't know you, but I usually utilise my tank as "mobile gate", as in, he's standing to the side to let the runner in, and then closes the path towards the backline, which effectively also disallows for the tank to get an opening shot.

 

 

 

As I said, the shooting squad might work for lower difficulties where you find groups of four enemies that have moderately low HP, taking two of them down before the fight starts is great. When pulls have eight plus enemies you'd rather use your alt weapon sets thinking more in the long run, like for example, using varying types of damage in your weapons to overcome different DRs.

[Mungri]

So was it a huge mistake for me to make a Wael priest with a rod instead of the one that gets an arquebus bonus?

[CaptainMace]

What does the priest of Wael get from his god ?
Priests of Magran (those who can chose the sword and arquebus (bonus fire damage) talent) seem to be pretty neat to build a damage dealing priest couple with scion of flame among other fight-oriented talents. Though that'd depend on your ability to keep 'em alive, since priests have a poor base HP (i'll join the people who want the % bonus from CON changed to raw bonus, and make base class hp less relevant than the actual attribute of the character).
If you're not into the damage dealer priest, I don't think priest of magran is that good of a choice.

Edited March 31, 2015 by CaptainMace

[Rostere]

I think the problem is in part that there are too few enemies which are dangerous ranged specialists. In games such as BG1 you would be swarmed by archers (kobolds, bandits, hobgoblins...) and thus charging into battle to enter close combat became preferable to trying to win a ranged fight. Otherwise, it would always have been preferable to initiate BG1 combat with a ranged volley as well. In BG2 ranged weapons became less powerful in general because of HP bloat.

[Mungri]

Wael gets rods / quarterstaffs. I wanted one with a ranged bonus and picked rods instead of arquebus.

[gkathellar]

The guns in this game are decent, but they need to add sniper rifles and light machine guns if they really want to make things interesting. I have a "go big or go home" philosophy when it comes to adding firearms to video games.

 

The game's technology is consistently comparable to that of the 1500s. Machine guns came, uh ... you know, a little later than that.

 

I refuse to use guns in a fantasy setting, I almost didn't play this game for that reason.

 

... I don't understand this view. If you're okay with plate mail, then it seems like you should be okay with guns, since the two have an inextricable technological tie. I guess not everyone is a huge, obnoxious historical warfare nerd, huh? Le sigh.

 

Priests of Magran (those who can chose the sword and arquebus (bonus fire damage) talent) seem to be pretty neat to build a damage dealing priest couple with scion of flame among other fight-oriented talents.

 

Magran's fire damage spell is 1/rest, unfortunately.

Edited March 31, 2015 by gkathellar

[Darkpriest]

 

The reload time on guns is like:

 

 

Not with a Chanter and the right talents/skill

 

 

I love the chanter with a certain chant that makes my gunner team kill things while my shieldbearer goes on and tanks narrow space, but even he sometimes need more melee and interrup support for tings that hit VERY HARD but slow