Memorials problem.

[Tigranes]

I'm sure Obsidian will say something if and when they want to. (It's also a Sunday in the US.) I don't have any information on what they think about it. 

[Cantousent]

Okay, reopened. We mods have had to watch this thread all day and we also needed a minute to gather our breath.

Yeah, what he said! I may have jumped the gun, being new to this moderator business. Tigranes is manifestly right in saying that there are valid points to be seen, and you guys have been making them. So, commence the debate, but no casting stones or rising up with pitchforks and fiery brands!

[santanzchild]

 

Okay, reopened. We mods have had to watch this thread all day and we also needed a minute to gather our breath.

Yeah, what he said! I may have jumped the gun, being new to this moderator business. Tigranes is manifestly right in saying that there are valid points to be seen, and you guys have been making them. So, commence the debate, but no casting stones or rising up with pitchforks and fiery brands!

And now your being racist against pitchforks!!!! How dare you it will take me all night to get him to stop crying...

[noxinecrotic]

I've read this several times now, and as far as I can see, this has nothing to do with trans people at all. The poem is stating that a man slept with a cross dressing male. When he woke up, he realised what he had done, and overreacted, which is a likely reaction given the circumstances. Maybe I'm just missing it, but I cannot see anything to do with trans people here at all.

Edited March 29, 2015 by noxinecrotic

[Chaz]

Well, as I mentioned earlier, TotalBiscuit is beign attacked on twitter for asking Obsidian to let that content stay in the game.

These comments were made by Alexander, fomer EiC of Gamasutra and Cross of the Feminist Frequency Show

 

Edited March 29, 2015 by Chaz

[Lydeck]

The mere notion that Obsidian should cave in to such a ridiculous complain is mind numbing. Why should it matter than a vocal minority is offended? They're not special and nobody should care if they're offended over some stupid joke. If someone doesn't posses the maturity to deal with a joke, then that's a personal problem. 

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

Please don't change this Obsidian, I've played all of your games and have been a fan since I was 12 and I don't want to see you have to hold back because someone with a twitter is offended.

[AlyxDinas]

TotalBiscuit is generally ignoring an important question. There's nothing wrong with games including ugliness in ugly, harsh worlds. The question is what the effect is. What the purpose is. What is the effect? Pillars is a setting that could totally be used to discuss trans issues, particularly if we get into some of the neat stuff it does with souls. And it could even have people who are somehow transphobic. "That person has the soul of a woman in their body? What? Freak!" And that would be interesting. That would be great, actually. But the backer thing here is, while small, shallow. Given some of the other content of the game, I'm unsure if it "fits". At least in this form. 

[DrTuring]

Well, as I mentioned earlier, TotalBiscuit is beign attacked on twitter for asking Obsidian to let that content stay in the game.

 

These comments were made by Alexander, fomer EiC of Gamasutra and Cross of the Feminist Frequency Show

 

 

A "Transphobe of the highest order?" For thinking a game should keep some content?

 

I would think that would be kept to the people who, you know, attack trans people, not people who just want to play a good video game without censorship.

[Sakai]

Pillars is a setting that could totally be used to discuss trans issues

It could, but it's not. 

[PrimeJunta]

Gotta say, in a game where you can

 

 

feed a lost, frightened orphan to a ghoul

 

 

I am surprised that the thing that provokes the biâwâc is a bad limerick and the possibility it'll get pulled.

 

But whatevs I suppose.

[santanzchild]

 

 

Pillars is a setting that could totally be used to discuss trans issues

It could, but it's not.

And frankly it would turn off a huge portion of the player base by bringing real world issues into a game based in an imaginary world.

[AlyxDinas]

 

It could, but it's not. 

 

 

Which is a bit of a bummer when you think about it. Not that the absence detracts from the game. It doesn't. Game's great. But the potential certainly existed.

[Darji]

TotalBiscuit is generally ignoring an important question. There's nothing wrong with games including ugliness in ugly, harsh worlds. The question is what the effect is. What the purpose is. What is the effect? Pillars is a setting that could totally be used to discuss trans issues, particularly if we get into some of the neat stuff it does with souls. And it could even have people who are somehow transphobic. "That person has the soul of a woman in their body? What? Freak!" And that would be interesting. That would be great, actually. But the backer thing here is, while small, shallow. Given some of the other content of the game, I'm unsure if it "fits". At least in this form. 

Or and that is just a or we could all act like adults and see it as a dumb joke a bard or jester would sing and not as something political or even more than that. That is my problem with this whole debate that is going on. Too much over analyzing too much shaming for harmless **** the movie or book industry would not even care to address. 

 

I am already honestly scared how these people will shame Witcher 3 and MGSV which will  also deal with very heavy topics and are way more main stream. 

Edited March 29, 2015 by Darji

[Lydeck]

TotalBiscuit is generally ignoring an important question. There's nothing wrong with games including ugliness in ugly, harsh worlds. The question is what the effect is. What the purpose is. What is the effect? Pillars is a setting that could totally be used to discuss trans issues, particularly if we get into some of the neat stuff it does with souls. And it could even have people who are somehow transphobic. "That person has the soul of a woman in their body? What? Freak!" And that would be interesting. That would be great, actually. But the backer thing here is, while small, shallow. Given some of the other content of the game, I'm unsure if it "fits". At least in this form.

So, you think it'd be a good thing for a game developer to create scenerios within the game for the specific purpose of making some sort of political statement outside of the game?

 

I'm sorry, but that's just awful and sets a horrible precedent. I'm sure it'd be all well and good as long as it's something you agree with but that wouldn't always happen and it'd just take away focus from the game itself.

[YourVoiceisAmbrosia]

All we know is that Sawyer said he'll "talk to the producers" about it, which was pretty vague.

 

To reiterate, we as the player don't even know if this had anything to do with a "trans" person, it could have actually been a male who still identifies as a male and the character who was involved was so drunk that he didn't notice. I am also having difficulty with the idea that people are offended by a relatively obscure limerick that you practically need to go out of your way to search for, that arguably insults Lightbringer instead of the other individual, yet have absolutely no issue with the racism, discrimination, murders, mass genocides, and rape present in the game that are practically required to be seen in order to proceed through the main campaign.

 

Furthermore the world of Pillars of Eternity is portrayed as grim and prejudiced, and is also influenced by historical civilizations that have also shared these prejudices. Portraying them in the game is not indicative of the developer's views nor is it an endorsement, especially when taking into consideration that this is practically a one-time instance that you have to deliberately go out of your way to find.  A character acting bigoted in a bigoted fictional world does not mean that the creators are bigoted, nor does it mean they support the notion of being bigoted.

 

In fact, we as the player don't even know if the limerick is actually historically accurate within the game world. Many poems that are like this are made up or fictional. For all we know there could have never actually been an individaul in the game world's history called Lightbringer and he could've just been made up for the sake of the poem.

Edited March 29, 2015 by YourVoiceisAmbrosia

[Sakai]

Which is a bit of a bummer when you think about it. Not that the absence detracts from the game. It doesn't. Game's great. But the potential certainly existed.

It is the same kind of bummer than if you watch Rambo and upset about lack of discussion about PTSD. Everything has its own time and place. 

[Syraxis]

Well, as I mentioned earlier, TotalBiscuit is beign attacked on twitter for asking Obsidian to let that content stay in the game.

 

These comments were made by Alexander, fomer EiC of Gamasutra and Cross of the Feminist Frequency Show

 

 

And she's supposed to be a professional journalist? She and others like her are why I've stopped reading most gaming news blogs.

[The King of Pants]

As I saw someone post on Twitter, I backed Pillars of Eternity, not the Pillars of SocJus.  Obsidian should not be censoring Backer content to suit the whims of the professionaly outraged.  Especially the whims of a admited neo-Nazi or one who rutinely tweets #killallmen.

 

I will be extreamly displeased if Obsidian caves on their Backers for a pack of professional whiners that mostly haven't purchased the game.

Edited March 29, 2015 by The King of Pants

[AlyxDinas]

And frankly it would turn off a huge portion of the player base by bringing real world issues into a game based in an imaginary world.

 

 

No created work is apolitical or without allegory. If the only issue is that people would be put off by the existence of politics, they shouldn't be engaging with art at all.

 

 

 

TotalBiscuit is generally ignoring an important question. There's nothing wrong with games including ugliness in ugly, harsh worlds. The question is what the effect is. What the purpose is. What is the effect? Pillars is a setting that could totally be used to discuss trans issues, particularly if we get into some of the neat stuff it does with souls. And it could even have people who are somehow transphobic. "That person has the soul of a woman in their body? What? Freak!" And that would be interesting. That would be great, actually. But the backer thing here is, while small, shallow. Given some of the other content of the game, I'm unsure if it "fits". At least in this form. 

 

Or and that is just a or we could all act like adults and see it as a dumb joke a bard or jester would sing and not as something political or even more than that. 

 

If presented in that context? Sure. I don't think it'd be as much an issue.

 

 

So, you think it'd be a good thing for a game developer to create scenerios within the game for the specific purpose of making some sort of political statement outside of the game?

I'm sorry, but that's just awful and sets a horrible precedent. 

 

It's something artists and creators already do and have done for quite a long time. Examine the use of magic in fiction and you'll often find the fear of magic or magic users has political or allegorical subtext. 

Edited March 29, 2015 by AlyxDinas

[Snoozer]

I'm glad an ubiquitous quote in a forlorn section of the game can arise such discussion. I'd hate to see what sparks the next incendiary chorus of recriminations...

 

Oh well, we know how it goes,...

 

This is the song that never ends

It just goes on and on my friend

Some people started singing it not knowing what it was,

And they'll continue singing it forever just because . . .

Edited March 29, 2015 by Snoozer

[DrTuring]

 

TotalBiscuit is generally ignoring an important question. There's nothing wrong with games including ugliness in ugly, harsh worlds. The question is what the effect is. What the purpose is. What is the effect? Pillars is a setting that could totally be used to discuss trans issues, particularly if we get into some of the neat stuff it does with souls. And it could even have people who are somehow transphobic. "That person has the soul of a woman in their body? What? Freak!" And that would be interesting. That would be great, actually. But the backer thing here is, while small, shallow. Given some of the other content of the game, I'm unsure if it "fits". At least in this form. 

Or and that is just a or we could all act like adults and see it as a dumb joke a bard or jester would sing and not as something political or even more than that. That is my problem with this whole debate that is going on. Too much over analyzing too much shaming for harmless **** the movie or book industry would not even care to address.

That's the thing about movies and books. They've been around long enough to get past the period where people try to control them. Video games are the new medium on the block, so people are trying to take control of it with their political agenda, whether it be Hard-right Fundies like Jack Thompson, or Hard-left Puritans like Jonathan McIntosh. It's sad, but so long as we fight for freedom of expression like we did with Thompson, video games will be able to be treated with the same respect those mediums are.

[Cultist]

[Darji]

 

And frankly it would turn off a huge portion of the player base by bringing real world issues into a game based in an imaginary world.

 

 

No created work is apolitical or without allegory. If the only issue is that people would be put off by the existence of politics, they shouldn't be engaging with art at all.

 

 

 

TotalBiscuit is generally ignoring an important question. There's nothing wrong with games including ugliness in ugly, harsh worlds. The question is what the effect is. What the purpose is. What is the effect? Pillars is a setting that could totally be used to discuss trans issues, particularly if we get into some of the neat stuff it does with souls. And it could even have people who are somehow transphobic. "That person has the soul of a woman in their body? What? Freak!" And that would be interesting. That would be great, actually. But the backer thing here is, while small, shallow. Given some of the other content of the game, I'm unsure if it "fits". At least in this form. 

 

Or and that is just a or we could all act like adults and see it as a dumb joke a bard or jester would sing and not as something political or even more than that. 

 

If presented in that context? Sure. I don't think it'd be as much an issue.

 

Then why is this? Have you never seen a dumb sentence on a grave stone about something stupid a person did and then died? Again  it makes clearly fun of the person commit suicide because of this. It does not make fun of the trans person in any way. Nor does it shame the women

Edited March 29, 2015 by Darji

[Valsuelm]

All we know is that Sawyer said he'll "talk to the producers" about it, which was pretty vague.

 

To reiterate, we as the player don't even know if this had anything to do with a "trans" person, it could have actually been a male who still identifies as a male and the character who was involved was so drunk that he didn't notice. I am also having difficulty with the idea that people are offended by a relatively obscure limerick that you practically need to go out of your way to search for, that arguably insults Lightbringer instead of the other individual, yet have absolutely no issue with the racism, discrimination, murders, mass genocides, and rape present in the game that are practically required to be seen in order to proceed through the main campaign.

 

Furthermore the world of Pillars of Eternity is portrayed as grim and prejudiced, and is also influenced by historical civilizations that have also shared these prejudices. Portraying them in the game is not indicative of the developer's views nor is it an endorsement, especially when taking into consideration that this is practically a one-time instance that you have to deliberately go out of your way to find.  A character acting bigoted in a bigoted fictional world does not mean that the creators are bigoted, nor does it mean they support the notion of being bigoted.

 

Indeed. If there was a tombstone saying something along the lines of 'Here lies so and so, we tortured and then burnt him to a crisp because he had X skin, let that be warnin to yee skin X folks to turn back now' no one in their right mind should be offended. It's a fictional world.

 

It's rated as a 'mature' game, not a kids game. Grow up yee folks who are finding offense, grow up. Please.