Combat Mechanics? Attack Speed, Recovery

[Daemonjax]

Warbow is consistently at 125 frames.  

 

It's also the only weapon tested so far that causes me to consistently die against the two wolves.  Probably bad luck on damage rolls.

Edited April 2, 2015 by Daemonjax

[Baki]

could someone explain what that code means? 31*1.5 frames recovery for 2H melee weapons?

 

Could you find the Ranged Attack Values in the code?

Edited April 2, 2015 by Baki

[Daemonjax]

could someone explain what that code means? 31*1.5 frames recovery for 2H melee weapons?

 

Could you find the Ranged Attack Values in the code?

 

Oh, that's code I wrote.  It's not from the game.  Sorry for the confusion.

 

I counted exactly 47 frames from the beginning of the war bow attack animation to when the yellow recovery bar becomes visible.

 

It looks like I'll need to test every weapon to get the exact count of attack animation frames since dexterity affects it while other attack speed bonuses do not.  I think I'll use: timeBetweenHitsLanded - timeYellowIsVisibleOnRecoveryBar = attack animation times.  Every weapon likely has a slightly different number of attack animation frames than is expected, so the general rule of 20 for fast and 30 for everything else isn't going to be accurate enough for me.

Edited April 2, 2015 by Daemonjax

[Baki]

i'll just copy my tests again. how are you counting frames btw? i used fraps to make the vid in 30 frames and then i used SolveigMM AVI Trimmer to get the times in seconds. always had to convert them back into frames.

 

[Daemonjax]

i'll just copy my tests again. how are you counting frames btw? i used fraps to make the vid in 30 frames and then i used SolveigMM AVI Trimmer to get the times in seconds. always had to convert them back into frames.

 

 

Yeah, I've been comparing what I'm finding to your results.

 

I'm using fraps and then advancing frames one by one using media player classic.  VLC has that feature as well.  I'm actually mentally counting the frames as I advance them.  I believe war bow actually has 47 attack animation frames (observed), and 78 (52 * 1.5) recovery (47 + 78 = 125 total observed).  Which is close to your 130.  I'll have to count the number of frames I can see yellow on the recovery bar to confirm.

 

Yellow is visible on the recovery bar for a total of 72 frames, then there's 6 frames of idle animation before the attack animation sequence observably starts again.  Should we count those extra 6 frames as recovery time or something else... I wonder if all weapons have 6 frames of padding after the recovery bar is empty.

Edited April 2, 2015 by Daemonjax

[Baki]

i remember this from my tests... i double checked one weapon.. i think it was crossbow.. created 2 different characters for it, male and female and i got different attack frames. one was 2 frames faster than the other.

 

maybe different models have different animation lengths.

 

about VLC: but you have to click and count every frame manually? isn't there some software out there that does that for you?

Edited April 2, 2015 by Baki

[Daemonjax]

i remember this from my tests... i double checked one weapon.. i think it was crossbow.. created 2 different characters for it, male and female and i got different attack frames. one was 2 frames faster than the other.

 

maybe different models have different animation lengths.

 

about VLC: but you have to click and count every frame manually? isn't there some software out there that does that for you?

 

Some weapons seem to have a couple frames variance... the largest I found was with the 1h sword... it alternated between 85 and 87 total frames between landed hits (the frame in which the damage numbers come up).  

 

You may be right about different animations for different races (like the animations for orlen and dwarf may actually be different from the ones the other races use).

 

It would be cool if mpc/vlc could just display the current frame number, but I can't find that option.  There's probably free video editing software that would do it like virtualdub or vlmc.

 

Just tested virtualdub and it does make it easier when you can see the frame number :D

Edited April 2, 2015 by Daemonjax

[Kal Adan]

I find it problematic to find out how calculate deflection and accuracy values between high and low. Is 23 accuracy low? Is 56 deflection high?

[Mazuo]

Hunting and war bows read as identical in-game so it'd be nice to have more accurate firing speed values listed to compare them without having to break it down into frame videos ourselves.  It also doesn't really make much sense if they actually have the same interrupt values.

[Daemonjax]

Hunting and war bows read as identical in-game so it'd be nice to have more accurate firing speed values listed to compare them without having to break it down into frame videos ourselves.  It also doesn't really make much sense if they actually have the same interrupt values.

 

I know, right?  Luckily there's not many weapons.

[AlphaMagnum]

Hey Daemonjax,

 

Noticed you mentioned the disparity between dw fast 1h weapons and just using 2h weapons. Were my rough calculations in that other thread accurate?

 

To summarize:

 

1) Attack frequency 1/44 frames for dw and 1/84 frames for 2h --> dw attacks 2x as often as 2h

2) Damage 8-12 dw (avg 10) and 20-29 2h (avg 24.5)

 

Therefore 2h does more DPS since it does 2.45x the damage and attacks half as often, yielding (2.45/2) = 1.225x the damage of dw.

[Baki]

demonjax, thanks for the virtualdub tip

 

i am double checking my results with virtualdub and i am getting minor differences.

[Baki]

Hey Daemonjax,

 

Noticed you mentioned the disparity between dw fast 1h weapons and just using 2h weapons. Were my rough calculations in that other thread accurate?

 

To summarize:

 

1) Attack frequency 1/44 frames for dw and 1/84 frames for 2h --> dw attacks 2x as often as 2h

2) Damage 8-12 dw (avg 10) and 20-29 2h (avg 24.5)

 

Therefore 2h does more DPS since it does 2.45x the damage and attacks half as often, yielding (2.45/2) = 1.225x the damage of dw.

 

Target's DR has a major effect on your effective DPS.

 

he's a screenshot of my excel dps calc (unfinished)

 

Edit: 2h base damage is 14-20 and not 20-29?

 

Edited April 2, 2015 by Baki

[Myrten]

 

Hey Daemonjax,

 

Noticed you mentioned the disparity between dw fast 1h weapons and just using 2h weapons. Were my rough calculations in that other thread accurate?

 

To summarize:

 

1) Attack frequency 1/44 frames for dw and 1/84 frames for 2h --> dw attacks 2x as often as 2h

2) Damage 8-12 dw (avg 10) and 20-29 2h (avg 24.5)

 

Therefore 2h does more DPS since it does 2.45x the damage and attacks half as often, yielding (2.45/2) = 1.225x the damage of dw.

 

Target's DR has a major effect on your effective DPS.

 

he's a screenshot of my excel dps calc (unfinished)

 

Edit: 2h base damage is 14-20 and not 20-29?

 

 

Can you post your excel file?

Edited April 2, 2015 by Myrten

[Warden]

yeah, 2h >>>> DW

DW has an edge only at DR 0 - (1h min dmg/2)

after 1h min dmg/2 point you would have to fight against something with at least DR = 2h avg dmg to brake even

there is no monster in the game which could match 2h avg dmg with all the talents and weapon upgrades

[Baki]

@Myrten:

 

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1MO3U4gv7VPQtfHwPNy_MKPZl_3wJow34QTARLH8ILLI/edit?usp=sharing

[ErlKing]

So overall "arbalest to rule em all". I hope they ll rebalance things a bit, because its weird thats arqebus have lower damage(even with DR reduction), lower accuracy, slower and cost more.

[Myrten]

@Myrten:

 

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1MO3U4gv7VPQtfHwPNy_MKPZl_3wJow34QTARLH8ILLI/edit?usp=sharing

I've made some changes to make it more clear and closer to game mechanics :

 

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1vDm5MOrCK6S95h5u0EzZbGTv_u_rYqjuO0-zupqk0_A/edit?usp=sharing

[Malk]

Hey Daemonjax,

 

Noticed you mentioned the disparity between dw fast 1h weapons and just using 2h weapons. Were my rough calculations in that other thread accurate?

 

To summarize:

 

1) Attack frequency 1/44 frames for dw and 1/84 frames for 2h --> dw attacks 2x as often as 2h

2) Damage 8-12 dw (avg 10) and 20-29 2h (avg 24.5)

 

Therefore 2h does more DPS since it does 2.45x the damage and attacks half as often, yielding (2.45/2) = 1.225x the damage of dw.

I don't have enough free time to play so my game progress is limited so I don't know what effects some of the weapons   have but if you add added stats and effects 2 weapons will catch up.  Also the elemental damage and such helps with the dr   

[Daemonjax]

 

Hey Daemonjax,

 

Noticed you mentioned the disparity between dw fast 1h weapons and just using 2h weapons. Were my rough calculations in that other thread accurate?

 

To summarize:

 

1) Attack frequency 1/44 frames for dw and 1/84 frames for 2h --> dw attacks 2x as often as 2h

2) Damage 8-12 dw (avg 10) and 20-29 2h (avg 24.5)

 

Therefore 2h does more DPS since it does 2.45x the damage and attacks half as often, yielding (2.45/2) = 1.225x the damage of dw.

I don't have enough free time to play so my game progress is limited so I don't know what effects some of the weapons   have but if you add added stats and effects 2 weapons will catch up.  Also the elemental damage and such helps with the dr   

 

 

We'll need a full-blown dps calculator with a character builder (including enchants and gear) that could run simulations within user-defined scenarios (starting with single-target would be easiest) to know for sure, but off the cuff I'd say dual-wielding fast weapons makes the most sense for when you want to maximize effects that proc on hit (like the cipher's draining whip) that aren't percentage-based (all of the rogue abilities and features are percentage-based).  

 

If you'd want to maximize interrupt chance, then you'd want to dual-wield fast weapons (not saying that focusing on making an interrupt character is optimal).  There's also items in the game with unique enchants that may make you consider dual-wielding.  

 

It's different from D&D because there's basically no flat modifiers to damage (Ranger's Marked Prey is not a flat damage increase, btw) and the damage reduction system favors heavy hits (because that IS a flat modifier to damage).  So classic archetypes (like a high dps dual-wielding stealthy rogue) are not favored by the game's mechanics.

Edited April 2, 2015 by Daemonjax

[Baki]

 

@Myrten:

 

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1MO3U4gv7VPQtfHwPNy_MKPZl_3wJow34QTARLH8ILLI/edit?usp=sharing

I've made some changes to make it more clear and closer to game mechanics :

 

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1vDm5MOrCK6S95h5u0EzZbGTv_u_rYqjuO0-zupqk0_A/edit?usp=sharing

 

 

explain the speed mods please.

[kmbogd]

I've done some tests myself using Fraps and VLC for manual frame by frame inspection. I've observed that it is difficult to understand when the transition between recovery phase (yellow bar is already empty) and attack phase occurs. On the other hand, it is very easy to spot when the transition between attack phase and recovery phase occurs: first frame when you notice the full yellow bar. Therefore, instead of counting frames for attack phase and recovery phase, I'm counting the number of frames between 2 full yellow bars. During my tests, with this approach I've noticed very little variance (at most 1 frame). Of course, cases when interrupts occur are excluded.

 

The interval that I indicated above equates to 1*recovery + 1*attack (for melee weapons). If considering that the attack phase is pretty clear, subtracting 20 or 30 from the result will provide the recovery time. With this approach I tend to get a bit lower than expected recovery times (1-2 frames below). However this might be attributed to the sampling from Fraps. 

 

I've also spotted a quite relevant bug related to interrupts during  attack animation. If you already dealt the damage (first part of the attack animation) and then the interrupt occurs, you transition directly to recovery phase (of normal length) without completing the attack animation anymore. This results in a buff instead of a penalty. The correct approach would be to transition to a recovery phase of longer length: normal recovery phase length + remaining length from attack phase + interrupt time.

Edited April 2, 2015 by kmbogd

[Myrten]

 

 

@Myrten:

 

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1MO3U4gv7VPQtfHwPNy_MKPZl_3wJow34QTARLH8ILLI/edit?usp=sharing

I've made some changes to make it more clear and closer to game mechanics :

 

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1vDm5MOrCK6S95h5u0EzZbGTv_u_rYqjuO0-zupqk0_A/edit?usp=sharing

 

 

explain the speed mods please.

 

In game increasing speed - for example doubling reload speed is described as "Reload Speed x2", or bonus to ranged speed is "Ranged attack speed x1.25"

 

To make it closer to in-game descriptions I've modified the spreadsheet so that frames are divided by matching speed modifier. It also works great for recovery time - if you take Plate Armor's -50% recovery time just write 0.5 in recovery mod and recovery frames will be doubles as in game.

[Akos]

Heavier damage weapons should receive a greater benefit from percent-based modifiers, while quicker weapons should receive a greater benefit from additional damage. What do I mean by that? 

So if we have something that modifiers damage by a 1.2 modifier, or in other words increases the damage by 20%, the higher base damage of two-handed weapons is going to receive a greater numerical benefit from the modification than a lower base damage dagger or sword might. To use actual examples, a Greatsword has an average damage of 19, a Sword 15, and a Dagger 10.5 average damage. Increasing all those numbers by 20% would result in: 

19 * 1.2 = 22.8 damage, or a 3.8 damage increase

15 * 1.2 = 18 damage, or a 3 damage increase

10.5 * 1.2 = 12.6 damage, or a 2.1 damage increase

As you can see, multiplication and division have a greater impact the higher your base damage is to begin with and thus naturally favor heavier hitting weapons and broadening the gap between the amount of damage that the various weapon options will do. On the other hand, adding damage to the base will favor quicker weapons as the amount of damage being added can be added more quickly on quicker weapons. The amount of damage added is the same regardless of which weapon you put it on, so the only other variable left to factor is that of speed. So to use an example: 

Weapon 1 does 20 damage, and makes an attack every 5 seconds
Weapon 2 does 8 damage, and makes an attack every 2 seconds

Their DPS should be exactly the same at 4 damage per second, or 240 damage every 60 second interval. However, let's go ahead and simply add another 5 damage to both. In Pillars of Eternity this would be the same as enchanting a weapon, or perhaps taking a talent or ability that reduces enemy Damage Reduction.  

Weapon 1 does 20+5 damage, and makes an attack every 5 seconds for 5 damage per second. 

Weapon 2 does 8+5 damage, and makes an attack every 2 seconds for 6.5 damage per second. 

 

In other words
(20+5) / 2 = 5 
(8+5) / 2 = 6.5 

 

As expected, the extra 5 damage benefits the quicker weapon more than it does the the slower weapon even though their initial damage per second was exactly the same. The more damage I add the more dramatic this difference will become, and even if the slower weapon has an initially higher base damage than the faster weapon adding enough damage to both weapons will eventually over-come it.  For example:

Weapon 1 does 40+100 damage, and makes an attack every 5 seconds for 28 damage per second.
Weapon 2 does 8+100 damage, and makes an attack every 2 seconds for 54 damage per second.

 

Even though I doubled the amount of base damage weapon 1 does, adding such an extreme amount of damage to both weapons still dramatically favors the faster weapon. Granted, that isn't necessarily the order of operations Pillars of Eternity follows; it might calculate added damage first and then apply multipliers at the end, which would give an example like this: 

Weapon 1 does (20+100) damage, and receives a 100% bonus to final damage. Its modified per hit is 240 damage, and if it makes an attack every 5 seconds it will do 48 damage per second. 
Weapon 2 does (8+100) damage, and receives a 100% bonus to final damage. Its modified damage per hit is 216 damage, and if it makes an attack every 2 seconds it will do 108 damage per second. 

Hopefully you are starting to see that you shouldn't take the vanilla attributes as a signal that something is more powerful than something else; it really is an end result of what you can do to modify those numbers that gets you through the door towards optimizing final damage. How many options do I have for multiplying damage vs adding damage, what are the speed variables for weapons, how often can I hit the enemy and is the added accuracy more valuable to me than something else or is the added damage worth sacrificing something that might offer more powerful damage mitigation? 

 I bring this up because I had noticed a trend on this forum while trying to gather data that dual wielding was an inferior style to two-handed weapons, and as I became more familiar with the methods available for increasing damage in Pillars of Eternity, my understanding of damage formulas naturally began to challenge this collective wisdom. 

The only piece of information I'm still missing (and why I'm in this thread to begin with) is how quickly weapons can apply their damage as this information is critical for me to start plugging in all the modifiers and summations to start figuring out how to optimize damage for various weapon types. 

So... How about them frames? 

 

[Grand_Commander13]

I've also spotted a quite relevant bug related to interrupts during  attack animation. If you already dealt the damage (first part of the attack animation) and then the interrupt occurs, you transition directly to recovery phase (of normal length) without completing the attack animation anymore. This results in a buff instead of a penalty. The correct approach would be to transition to a recovery phase of longer length: normal recovery phase length + remaining length from attack phase + interrupt time.

 

You should probably tweet someone about that, so it at least goes into 1.05. If you're really lucky they might have time to get it into 1.04.