Combat Mechanics? Attack Speed, Recovery

[tonberrian]

We need a single thing (item / ability) that allows to get a test weapon with CONSTANT damage (weapon min = weapon max).. Eliminating damage RNG roll would then make it trivial to reverse engineer the damage formula and the exact bonuses and places where each ability/talent/bonus/effect/etc.. fits in in said formula..

 

Some games don't have RNG damage roll to begin with ( Mass Effect 2/3 - they lacked the damage log  ), some provide the items required to remove it (Diablo 2/3 have ring/amulet mods that increased weapon min damage ) .

 

Only thing that would qualify that I'm aware of in this game - is a fighter talent that ups weapon min damage by 20%.. Sadly that is not enough to completly shut the RNG gap for any weapon .. ( you can get pretty narrow damage ranges on some weapons but not constant damage)

 

For accurate tesing we will need a modder support - either mod in  a weapon with min damage = max damage.. Better yet a ring with +6 to minimum damage (could test most weapon types with 2 of those rings) .. Or make that fighter talent add +100% to weapon minimum damage ( will only be able to test fighter abilities in that case) ...

 

No-one familiar enough with the unity engine capable of such simple modification ?

Fire Godtouched retaliatory damage is consistently 2*level.

[peddroelm]

 

Fire Godtouched retaliatory damage is consistently 2*level.

 

Not what I've asked for .. 

[tonberrian]

 

 

Fire Godtouched retaliatory damage is consistently 2*level.

 

Not what I've asked for .. 

 

Why not? It's an attack verses deflection. It can score hits, crits, and grazes. The only things that don't apply to it are weapon specific, like weapon quality.

[Kaylon]

Has someone checked using fraps if the modifiers stack additively for the reloading part of ranged weapons? I'm asking because when you look into Cheatengine they are multiplied (1.2x1.5x1.2 for a ranger with gunner, swift aim and chanter buff). 

[Night Driver]

1.) When do the attack, recovery, and reload delays occur.

 

I assume the sequence is

 

attack delay

attack animation

recovery delay

recovery animation

reload delay

reload animation

 

Correct?

 

2.) The attack times for ranged weapons have increased since I downloaded the last revision of the spreadsheet. Is it the delay frames that are accounting for these increases?

 

3.) Are there an equal number of delay frames for each weapon, and, if so, how many frames of delay are there each for attack, recovery, and reload?

[Myrten]

1.) When do the attack, recovery, and reload delays occur.

 

I assume the sequence is

 

attack delay

attack animation

recovery delay

recovery animation

reload delay

reload animation

 

Correct?

 

2.) The attack times for ranged weapons have increased since I downloaded the last revision of the spreadsheet. Is it the delay frames that are accounting for these increases?

 

3.) Are there an equal number of delay frames for each weapon, and, if so, how many frames of delay are there each for attack, recovery, and reload?

1)We don't know yet if reload delay exist at all - needs to be checked

 

2)Yeah, all frame data can be considered un-verified at this point.

 

3)Needs to be checked

[Night Driver]

Thanks for the quick reply.

[Myrten]

I took a look at dual wielding - it seems to decrease recovery time by 50% so I have a request for frames testing:

 

Single handed naked dex 10 vs dual wield naked dex 10 with armor having -50% recovery penalty.

 

We don't have data for sabre yet so you can use it

[tonberrian]

Someone needs to do testing to figure out how focus is generated, because I can't for the life of me figure it out. I want to say it has a base, which is then modified by the net damage modifier, but that's just guessing.

[Daemonjax]

Someone needs to do testing to figure out how focus is generated, because I can't for the life of me figure it out. I want to say it has a base, which is then modified by the net damage modifier, but that's just guessing.

 

I think it's 25% of damage done, but you don't gain it per hit... It feels like there's focus gain ticks every X seconds... maybe 3.

[peddroelm]

Did a small test on Monk transcendent suffering ability (was hoping it adds to base fist damage) .. Sadly it does not.. (for people complaining OSA for barb adds set amount of damage, TS works the same, only it adds much smaller amounts)

 

Monk fist base damage always remains 10-15 ..  

 

Ex.. Lvl 10 monk (+8 damage from transcendent suffering) , 20 might (30% damage bonus) , savage attack (20% damage bonus)     

 

damage range:  10* ( 1 + 0.3 + 0.2 ) + 8 - 15 * ( 1 + 0.3 + 0. 2 ) +8   <=>  23-30.5  displayed in char screen as 23-31

 

Was really hopping transcend suffering would add to base damage before additive damage bonuses, sadly not the case ..

Edited April 11, 2015 by peddroelm

[blinkicide]

 

Have you guys figured out whether dex and recovery penalty from armors are additive or multiplicative?

 

e.g. Recovery time: 

 

Base Frames  * 1 / ((1 + dex bonus) * (1-Recovery Speed Penalty))

 

or is it

 

Base Frames  * 1/ (1 + dex bonus - recover speed penalty)

[Matt516]

Did a small test on Monk transcendent suffering ability (was hoping it adds to base fist damage) .. Sadly it does not.. (for people complaining OSA for barb adds set amount of damage, TS works the same, only it adds much smaller amounts)

 

Monk fist base damage always remains 10-15 ..  

 

Ex.. Lvl 10 monk (+8 damage from transcendent suffering) , 20 might (30% damage bonus) , savage attack (20% damage bonus)     

 

damage range:  10* ( 1 + 0.3 + 0.2 ) + 8 - 15 * ( 1 + 0.3 + 0. 2 ) +8   <=>  23-30.5  displayed in char screen as 23-31

 

Was really hopping transcend suffering would add to base damage before additive damage bonuses, sadly not the case ..

 

To be fair, nothing ever adds to the base damage ever. Weapon enhancements (fine, exceptional, superb as well as damaging) change the displayed base damage of the weapon, but the internal base damage for the purpose of calculating how much damage the additive percentage boni give remains the same no matter what.

 

So monks aren't at all particularly inconvenienced by this. They do get ****-tons more damage on their fist attacks than anyone can ever get on any other 2H fast weapons though, so there's that.

[Matt516]

Re: recovery time and such... have you all seen this? This is a graphic Josh Sawyer posted during the Beta, and to my knowledge things haven't changed much (if at all) since then. It won't answer your questions about stacking and such, but it should give you a good idea as to how the system is "supposed" to work.

 

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0Bzc2Dec83wSnY2F4WjgzaHhXVnM/view?usp=sharing

 

EDIT: It's in seconds, not frames - but you get the idea.

 

EDIT 2: Just from looking at the graphic again, I have a few observations... it looks like weapons have a base recovery time, and then single 1H weapons (or with shield) or 2H weapons have an additional penalty. The interesting thing is that it doesn't look like the armor recovery penalty actually applies to this additional "single weapon" penalty - only to the base weapon penalty. This would mean that armor actually slows dual wielders down comparatively more than it slows single weapon wielders. Does this jive with what you've observed in your tests?

Edited April 12, 2015 by Matt516

[illathid]

So are we any closer to getting an accurate DPS equation?

[Matt516]

So are we any closer to getting an accurate DPS equation?

 

How many parameters do you want to include? If you know your ACC, base weapon damage, and any modifiers that apply, as well as their DEF and DR I think it's already known, yes? Only thing still being worked out is how exactly DEX and armor affects attack speed.

[illathid]

 

So are we any closer to getting an accurate DPS equation?

 

How many parameters do you want to include? If you know your ACC, base weapon damage, and any modifiers that apply, as well as their DEF and DR I think it's already known, yes? Only thing still being worked out is how exactly DEX and armor affects attack speed.

 

 

It's the Dex and Armour effects that I specifically want to compare, so yeah it's kinda important

[Matt516]

 

 

So are we any closer to getting an accurate DPS equation?

 

How many parameters do you want to include? If you know your ACC, base weapon damage, and any modifiers that apply, as well as their DEF and DR I think it's already known, yes? Only thing still being worked out is how exactly DEX and armor affects attack speed.

 

 

It's the Dex and Armour effects that I specifically want to compare, so yeah it's kinda important

 

 

What difficulty are you playing on that it actually matters? PotD++?

 

Or is it just for theorycrafting fun? I can understand that.

[illathid]

 

 

 

So are we any closer to getting an accurate DPS equation?

 

How many parameters do you want to include? If you know your ACC, base weapon damage, and any modifiers that apply, as well as their DEF and DR I think it's already known, yes? Only thing still being worked out is how exactly DEX and armor affects attack speed.

 

 

It's the Dex and Armour effects that I specifically want to compare, so yeah it's kinda important

 

 

What difficulty are you playing on that it actually matters? PotD++?

 

Or is it just for theorycrafting fun? I can understand that.

 

 

Just theorycrafting. I'm partly curious about how armour penalty and Dex interact with each other. Like if I have a character in full plate using a two handed weapon, what's the effective DPS of going 3 might & 18 dex, compared to 18 might & 3 dex, etc.

 

I really like theoretically optimizations within certain constraints, but you need to know how all those constraints work to do so properly.

[Matt516]

 

 

 

 

So are we any closer to getting an accurate DPS equation?

 

How many parameters do you want to include? If you know your ACC, base weapon damage, and any modifiers that apply, as well as their DEF and DR I think it's already known, yes? Only thing still being worked out is how exactly DEX and armor affects attack speed.

 

 

It's the Dex and Armour effects that I specifically want to compare, so yeah it's kinda important

 

 

What difficulty are you playing on that it actually matters? PotD++?

 

Or is it just for theorycrafting fun? I can understand that.

 

 

Just theorycrafting. I'm partly curious about how armour penalty and Dex interact with each other. Like if I have a character in full plate using a two handed weapon, what's the effective DPS of going 3 might & 18 dex, compared to 18 might & 3 dex, etc.

 

I really like theoretically optimizations within certain constraints, but you need to know how all those constraints work to do so properly.

 

 

Even if Dex works in the most advantageous way possible (decreasing both attack and recovery time), it can only provide a DPS increase of 3% per point... but while also adding more attacks per second, which increases the DPS decrease from DR (since that's directly dependent on your attacks per second). Might, on the other hand, is a flat bonus to damage so it is always better.........

 

is what I would have said before I realized that due to the additive multipliers, Might really isn't that good because it's just an additive damage multiplier. Whereas Dex is multiplicative because however much damage you're doing from everything else just gets multiplied by the additional attack speed. It's hard to say one is always better than the other though since Might is better against DR and Dex is better when you have lots of attack modifiers.

 

My hunch is that Dex is actually going to be superior most of the time, since (again), the most Might ever provides you is 3% of your base weapon damage per point, while Dex provides you 3% more speed, which translates to all your attack multipliers (Might included) being multiplied by 1.03. Probably. The DR DPS decrease increase is still a problem for Dex though, which is why I honestly don't know..

[Daemonjax]

 

My hunch is that Dex is actually going to be superior most of the time, since (again), the most Might ever provides you is 3% of your base weapon damage per point, while Dex provides you 3% more speed, which translates to all your attack multipliers (Might included) being multiplied by 1.03. Probably. The DR DPS decrease increase is still a problem for Dex though, which is why I honestly don't know..

 

 

True, except it's closer to 2.25% in practice due to the animation transition delays.

Edited April 12, 2015 by Daemonjax

[Matt516]

 

 

My hunch is that Dex is actually going to be superior most of the time, since (again), the most Might ever provides you is 3% of your base weapon damage per point, while Dex provides you 3% more speed, which translates to all your attack multipliers (Might included) being multiplied by 1.03. Probably. The DR DPS decrease increase is still a problem for Dex though, which is why I honestly don't know..

 

 

True, except it's closer to 2.25% in practice due to the animation transition delays.

 

 

Really? That would at least bring it a bit back in line with Might... though probably unintentionally. I hope Obsidian does a once-over on the attribute system before PoE 2. Design decisions are one thing (stop complaining about Might being both physical and magical, FFS), but when one attribute is almost strictly better than another in every way, that's just a broken system that needs to be mended.

[blinkicide]

Three scenarios for how dex could interact with armor penalty:

 

Our baseline for no dex bonus, in heavy armor (50%):

 

1s (swing) + 1s (recovery) + 1s (recovery penalty = 2s * .50) = 3s total.

 

 

Lets assume a dex bonus of 24%, here are three ways dex could likely work:

 

1. No effect on Recovery Penalty:

 

.76 + .76 + 1 = 2.25   (84% of original time)

 

2. Multiplicative with recovery penalty

 

.76 + .76 + (2* .50 * .76) = 2.28  (76% of original time)

 

Basically dex does what it says here regardless of armor (24% bonus)

 

3. Subtracts from recovery penalty:

 

.76 + .76 + (2* (.50-.24)) = 2  (66% of original time)

 

Here dex would provide more than the stated gains of 24% for users in heavy armor.

Edited April 13, 2015 by blinkicide

[iszathi]

Trying to model rw attacks, this is what i got so far. Feel free to point mistakes

 

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1ZXuiJj7XpZECGNnJuIJJ9CuQrI4OSD8if4-9uJib-OY/edit?usp=sharing

[Brimsurfer]

Hmm....so switching from medium to heavy armor a melee rogue (with 20 Dex) suffers about 15% to 20% loss in recovery speed........how badly will this loss in recovery speed affect him.....I am trying to figure that out, can anyone shed some light on it?

 

Thanks.

Edited April 13, 2015 by Brimsurfer